Basileus777
Member
We have better labels for that that don't need to restrict what is Japanese is some arbitrary way.
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Let's finish this off, what is the correct definition of JRPG?
- Thread starter Grief.exe
- Start date
We have better labels for that that don't need to restrict what is Japanese is some arbitrary way.
I see that the whole crux of the disagreement comes from trying to use the term 'JRPG' to define a specific set of games with a specific set of criteria. This is an incorrect usage of the term and is the source of what Shinta was getting at - the West vs East taste debate.
By the words that make up its acronym, JRPG (Japanese Role Playing Game) should literally ONLY MEAN 'Japanese Role Playing Game'. Proof of point? You can insert any other descriptors into it as well to further specify what kind of game you're talking about:
Japanese Action Role Playing Game
Japanese Turn-based Role Playing Game
Japanese Open World Role Playing Game
By the words that make up its acronym, JRPG (Japanese Role Playing Game) should literally ONLY MEAN 'Japanese Role Playing Game'. Proof of point? You can insert any other descriptors into it as well to further specify what kind of game you're talking about:
Japanese Action Role Playing Game
Japanese Turn-based Role Playing Game
Japanese Open World Role Playing Game
Except he's wrong. They are further classified, and by terms that aren't purely region-specific
I can tell you started gaming during PS360 era (not that there's anything wrong with that
because a lot of this is going over your head. As I said before, back in those days you didn't have those other classifications, you had RPG and JRPG. Today we have those classification's, but don't try to apply them to a genre that's been around before they were conceived.
Sakura
Member
There isn't a distinction there, because there aren't that many games from both sides of the pond to make one. How many major western platformers are there? Rayman? Meanwhile 90% of the Japanese platformers are probably made by Nintendo. However, there are tons of RPGs that come out from Japan, and the west, which is why you hear a distinction. If other regions produced as many games, you'd probably hear stuff like, eastern European RPG or shooter or something as well.
Using JRPG to refer to a very specific type of game doesn't make any sense. Then what does every single RPG under the sun that doesn't fit into that limited definition fall under? WRPG? Then you just have a meaningless term there that doesn't really describe anything.
So Lightning Returns and Final Fantasy X-2 aren't JRPGs?
As for useless bells and whistles...
Final Fantasy X is a WRPG.
I can tell you started gaming during PS360 era (not that there's anything wrong with that
LMAO. LOOOOOOOOOOL
I've been gaming since the early 90's, but I shouldn't have to point that out or even mention it. Mate, you're just plain refusing the arguments I'm making and are using your own arbitrary criteria under the label 'JRPG' and telling everyone they're wrong for not also using it that way.
C'mon, there are tons of Japanese actions games, Japanese strategy games etc. but NONE have a J in front of them, the reason JRPG do is because back in those days there was a specific formula for RPG's coming out of Japan.
1.linear
2.turned-based combat
3.grind
4.profit cuz if you liked rpg, that's all there was, no mass effect, no elder scrolls (on console etc)
You said you played since Genesis, think back to every Phantasy Star game and tell me I'm wrong.
Exactly, the J in JRPG to describe region of development is superfluous. You are better off describing games by subgenres like ARPG, SRPG, CRPG, etc.
That's why you use JRPG to describe early RPGs made in Japan, your Final Fantasies and Dragon Quests. Why? You won't get people to stop using JRPG as a genre term and more RPGs nowadays are sliding from classic JRPG style to action RPGs by implementing real-time direct input commands and meaningful movement and positioning in addition to stat balancing (D* Souls, Dragon's Dogma, even Darksiders 2 falls in to the action RPG genre). With every other type of RPG described and ascribed their own subgenre name, the only types of Japanese-made RPGs left are classically styled JRPGs, and since dislodging JRPG as a genre name is too dam hard we can repurpose it (by exclusion) to mean classical JRPGs. A solution that is not ideal, but still makes the term useful with minimal effort.
The idea that JRPG has to refer to games styled after 90's RPGs is silly.
This is exactly what's happening here. Thanks for putting it into words that I could not
Sakura
Member
So are you going to tell me that a game like Illusion of Gaia is not a JRPG just because it doesn't fit your definition...? There are JRPGs even back in the Genesis and SNES days that weren't turn based. The reason Japanese action RPGs and Japanese strategy RPGs don't have a J in front of them... is because they are already under the umbrella term of JRPG, and the strategy, action, etc is just describing the gameplay.
Do you have a logical argument besides saying "that's stupid"?
But it doesn't though, have you played any RPG's on PS2? if so which ones? and also which ones where not JRPG?
Yes. The term does not indicate any reference to 'classic' RPGs from Japan. It is an umbrella term for RPGs made in Japan. Any other descriptors go after the 'J', as I mentioned above.
It doesn't matter what era.
Look, that is a big ass umbrella, so we're gonna have to agree to disagree.
There's nothing wrong with it being a big ass umbrella term. You can add in any descriptors to further specify what kind of RPG you're talking about.
Sakura
Member
Look, that is a big ass umbrella, so we're gonna have to agree to disagree.
Yes. It is. Now think with me for a second. Let's say, a JRPG is an RPG that fits your definition. So what does every other RPG fall under? WRPG? Just RPG? How are those not still big ass umbrellas? If you're going to say that other RPGs are described by their genre (action, strategy, open world, etc) then why can't we simply use the word turn based RPG instead of JRPG to fit your defined genre?
Look, that is a big ass umbrella, so we're gonna have to agree to disagree.
Not just that, SRPGs (or is it tactical RPGs? I get them confused) describe a type of gameplay regardless of region. Fire Emblem, Tactics Ogre, XCOM and The Banner Saga all belong in the same subgenre because they all play similarly, with some having extra meta-game layers.
Yes, it's a useless label in your definition. What point can you convey by saying "This RPG comes from Japan"? Nothing useful, as this thread has already demonstrated the huge breadth of the term RPG and how different one is from another.
I still just call them RPGs. The term JRPG is fine for mentioning the country of origin, but completely inefficient for describing any type of gameplay or style. I wouldn't be opposed to having more descriptive names for Dragon Quest style strictly turn based games, ATB type games, Tales/Star Ocean style combat etc but JRPG doesn't describe anything.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
Look, that is a big ass umbrella, so we're gonna have to agree to disagree.
Not really. Looking at the PS360 Wii generation JRPG's on consoles are not as numerous as you would hope for them to be.
It really does though, what you guys are failing to understand, is that when these terms were 'coined' japan was the only country making games. Sure you had an odd ball US title or whatever and tons of Japanese devs set up in USA under different names but Japanese made all the games. Terms like WRPG didn't exist.
JRPG don't have to be turned based but most just were.
EDIT: majority ok
Japan was the only country making games? What point in time do you think this was the case for?
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
WTF am I readin GAF. WRPG's didn't exist? PC?
You want to know why? Japan figured out that we were tired of the formula that people in this thread are failing to see and tried new things. JRPG is a dying genre, but don't change it into something its not, let it die in peace.
talking consoles but yeah, I never heard the term WRPG in the 80-90's.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
lol no
JRPG is still one of the biggest genre's in Japan and popular in the West as well. Japan had just moved onto handhelds.
Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Western_role-playing_video_games
Hear the term cRPG? Yeah.
It's not necessary turn based, even if often is, but definitely party based, more often than not menu based, story driven with predefined characters RPGs.
Term has nothing to do with being from Japan now, although it originated there and that's how genre name was created, historically it mean Japanese RPGs, now it mean certain RPGs described in my first sentence.
Term has nothing to do with being from Japan now, although it originated there and that's how genre name was created, historically it mean Japanese RPGs, now it mean certain RPGs described in my first sentence.
Look I can only give you my perspective, I don't know what's popular on handhelds in japan. I only came to this thread to give (my opinion) on the definition of JRPG. If this is the type of debate that goes down, I look forward to the thread defining what a 'sandbox' is
k
You're kidding right? CRPG...ha!
Earthpainting
Member
You're correct that FF9 was mostly made by Japanese staff, living in the US. Secret of Evermore was made by Americans as far as I know.
Either way, I agree with you. Our terminology needs to reflect on the content of software, and not on the circumstances it was created in, or be based on the the people that made it. The terms "JRPG" and "WRPG" essentially classify a game based on the developer's location or nationality, and both which are an odd thing to do. Location is obviously a fluid thing, and doing it based on nationality adds a layer that only seems to serve chauvinistic purposes. It'd be as weird as doing it based on the race of developers. If the terms don't clarify what type of game it is, cause semantic discussions, and gets used in East VS West arguments, maybe we shouldn't propagate their use any longer.
Welp I guess Romancing Saga games are really not JRPG then...
We get to tell that to Kawazu and co from Square Enix that they made a crpg or something back then...
These are obviously the words of someone who's never played superior PRPGs (Polish RPGs) like The Witcher and Two Worlds!
Very good summary of the issue, I agree completely.
I find it funny how many people believe that Tales or Star Ocean games aren't JRPGs, because you know, where is turn based combat?
It's not about combat mechanics, there are all sorts of that in JRPGs, probably more than in any other genre, it's about structure of a game and purpose.
It's not about combat mechanics, there are all sorts of that in JRPGs, probably more than in any other genre, it's about structure of a game and purpose.
PshycoNinja
Member
Exactly. It irks me when someone defines JRPG to equal Turn-based RPG. JRPG = Japanese Role Playing Game. JRPG is not a descript for the type of battle system the game has.
Like when people say Ys, Kingdom Hearts or FINAL FANTASY XV aren't JRPG's. Of course they are JRPG's. They are just Action JRPG's compared to Turn Based JRPG's. Bugs the everlasting crap out of me.
You really need to read more, since you apparently missed half of gaming in the 80's and 90's.You're kidding right? CRPG...ha!
I like this post.
Don't get me wrong not all JRPG have to be turn-based as I said before. Its just that the majority of them are. It was a formula they all followed to make an RPG..
I'll explain, COD is popular, WOW is popular, people see money is to be made and copy the formula. Same thing with JRPG, why is this so hard to understand?
Basileus777
Member
Clearly a KRPG.
PshycoNinja
Member
But not following the WOW or CoD formula doesn't mean a game isn't an MMORPG or FPS, respectively. Saying otherwise is ignorant.
Why is it odd? Many of us remember, that JRPG for longest time was term used only between fans and not acknowledged by media. We had console style RPG term then, which makes even less sense, because JRPGs can be on PC and some were. It's more like a tribute, where genre originated, same with WRPG. People using them as derogatory terms at times doesn't change their meaning.
It's not the best example, but you don't expect all french fries you eat to be from France, as you don't argue hours about why they are called so on internets.
I actually wouldn't mind better genre definitions, gaf, being large community could probably make and propagate such, but we seem never to agree on any definitions. And semantics arguments are really boring.
Wiktor
Member
I consider jRPGs to be Japanese-style RPGs, not necessary made in Japan. It just makes more sense to me. Games are what matters, not who makes them. And jRPGs have subgenre quality to them. It makes no sense for a genre to be country-based. Especially these days where any bigger project is at least partially outsourced to other countries.
Another reason being what it firs the whole wRPG - jRPG dichotomy. I don't think you can treat wRPGs geographically either as many of the great ones weren't made in the western countries,
Another reason being what it firs the whole wRPG - jRPG dichotomy. I don't think you can treat wRPGs geographically either as many of the great ones weren't made in the western countries,
There has too much cross pollination. Every one borrowed ideas from each other. Even going back 20 years.
Any thing made in Japan is JRPG now. Other than pure Action Adventure games like Dark, Daemon Souls.
Games that are decided based on reaction times, should not be RPG. They should be categorized under Action. Same with Boderlands.
Any thing made in Japan is JRPG now. Other than pure Action Adventure games like Dark, Daemon Souls.
Games that are decided based on reaction times, should not be RPG. They should be categorized under Action. Same with Boderlands.
Basileus777
Member
Are you calling central/eastern European games non-western?
No, there's a difference between action RPGs and character action games. The only one solely based on skill are character action games. With action RPGs grinding up stats is a way to make up for knowledge or skill. If Vergil decides to kick your ass, there's nothing stopping him except your own skill.
It is a bit odd, especially when 'the west' typically includes developers from a total of a couple of dozen countries from Northern and Central Europe as well as Western Europe and NA. While 'western' in political terms is understandable as a sphere of influence derived from the USA and Western Europe, as opposed to various other spheres, in videogame terms it pretty much means virtually everything we see that isn't Japanese. It's such a wide overarching term as to be a bit useless in terms of description, especially when it's such a huge number of countries compared to just one. It made much more sense before the last generation when Japanese games still dominated the global console market.
Hmm. Here's a good spot.
Stealth I really fucking love the mash-up that is Etrian Odyssey post 