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Let's speculate about the 3DS' successor

Why the fuck would they use a PICA instead of Nvidia who did great progress and is translating their PC architecture to mobile? Or PowerVR? Or Adreno?
Because the PR bullshit companies like Nvidia or Imagination Technologies throw around is ultimately meaningless when it doesn't translate to game performance. And Nintendo will never use an off-the-shelf SoC anyway, so why settle for components designed for entirely different systems? Those SoCs waste half the die space on nonsense Nintendo doesn't need (HD video encoding, image stabilization, baseband DSPs and so on), yet lack in things they actually do need, like a proper multichannel audio DSP or dedicated embedded VRAM. And if the chip is custom, it's custom - what's in it doesn't matter. PICA, PowerVR, Mali and Tegra cost exactly the same from a manufacturing standpoint. What it boils down to is real world performance per square millimeter and Watt, and nothing else.


How much RAM would allow such a design? Considering that, what kind of graphics could it output? And could a console with these specifics being sold at 199.99 as max price possible?

I know I'm asking a lot, but you seem to be one of the users who really knows about tech, so I was curious about your opinion.
No idea, really. The 3DS SoC has 6MB I believe. Depends on the resolution they're targeting and the overall memory architecture. Maybe 10MB?
 
I have a Moto G with 720p LED display with a Qualcomm 400 chipset for less than a 3DSXL with their 2x ARM11 (ARMv6 several year old architecture), their 3D 200p display, resistive screen and a several years old PICA GPU.

If you're going to make a portable gaming machine with 720p, going with that weak GPU is a stupid idea.
 
All I want is more StreetPass games and deeper/more widespread functionality. That's what makes the 3DS special, not the 3D or the power bump (though a power bump is also probably the next most important thing after an eShop that doesn't blow chunks).
 
Because the PR bullshit companies like Nvidia or Imagination Technologies throw around is ultimately meaningless when it doesn't translate to game performance. And Nintendo will never use an off-the-shelf SoC anyway, so why settle for components designed for entirely different systems? Those SoCs waste half the die space on nonsense Nintendo doesn't need (HD video encoding, image stabilization, baseband DSPs and so on), yet lack in things they actually do need, like a proper multichannel audio DSP or dedicated embedded VRAM. And if the chip is custom, it's custom - what's in it doesn't matter. PICA, PowerVR, Mali and Tegra cost exactly the same from a manufacturing standpoint.What it boils down to is real world performance per square millimeter and Watt, and nothing else.[

I'm pretty sure a chip that sells 100 million over a one who sells 20 million will reduce it's price over time more faster and radically. And if Nintendo isn't considering doing something more than a dedicated portable gaming device, their DOA anyway. HD video encoding and things like that should be in their next iteration of their portables.

And Vita did fine with going with ARM and PowerVR and adding VRAM and all that other stuff. Is a way more powerful machine. There's no reason to go with PICA other that being Nintendo and going with a GPU no one uses difficulting mobile ports.
 
I think this may be a better image for my point.

In 2014 we'll getting this:

lANJ2eN.png


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpvfTuaO75k


In 2016 we should be able to get a powerful enough GPU for 1080p with Nintendo standard visual fidelity. You guys are understimating mobile GPU progress.

What does nintendo's standard visual fidelity mean?
Super Mario 3D world looks absolutely amazing in 480p on the WiiU Gamepad, if their next handheld can get close to that I'd be ecstatic, but it certainly won't at 1080p.

resolution VS graphic power is always a tradeoff, and one that doesn't make much sense at > 250 ppi right now, regardless of what tech geeks think. If technology truly advances as far as you think in the next few years, they're still better off by going as low cost as possible rather than waste it on 1080p.
 
What does nintendo's standard visual fidelity mean?
Super Mario 3D world looks absolutely amazing in 480p on the WiiU Gamepad, if their next handheld can get close to that I'd be ecstatic, but it certainly won't at 1080p.

resolution VS graphic power is always a tradeoff, and one that doesn't make much sense at > 250 ppi right now, regardless of what tech geeks think. If technology truly advances as far as you think in the next few years, they're still better off by going as low cost as possible rather than waste it on 1080p.

Super Mario 3D world looks amazing, but I don't think is a tech marvel like a PS4 title, that's for sure, most Nintendo aren't technical marvels and EAD Tokio which is probably their best graphical studio is mostly an exception rather than the norm. And Wii U gamepad screen looks horrible no matter what game you put on it.

The tradeoff is a worth one. Most portable titles won't push graphics and tech as far to be a real bottleneck.
 
I'm pretty sure a chip that sells 100 million over a one who sells 20 million will reduce it's price over time more faster and radically. And if Nintendo isn't considering doing something more than a dedicated portable gaming device, their DOA anyway. HD video encoding and things like that should be in their next iteration of their portables.

And Vita did fine with going with ARM and PowerVR and adding VRAM and all that other stuff. Is a way more powerful machine. There's no reason to go with PICA other that being Nintendo and going with a GPU no one uses difficulting mobile ports.
Volume isn't really important for custom chips. There are only manufacturing costs, which depend on the size and the number of final chips produced, and licensing costs. The former will always be limited for custom or semi-custom chips, and the latter depend on the contract between the IP holder and the licensee. And I'm sure DMP made Nintendo a pretty sweet deal. It boils down to efficiency, and PICA seems quite efficient. "Being Nintendo" is bullshit, they're very cost sensitive as you know.

And why the hell would any handheld gaming device need HD video encoding? It's not meant to replace a camcorder, the camera will be the cheapest thing Nintendo can get away with.
 
Volume isn't really important for custom chips. There are only manufacturing costs, which depend on the size and the number of final chips produced, and licensing costs. The former will always be limited for custom or semi-custom chips, and the latter depend on the contract between the IP holder and the licensee. And I'm sure DMP made Nintendo a pretty sweet deal. It boils down to efficiency, and PICA seems quite efficient. "Being Nintendo" is bullshit, they're very cost sensitive as you know.

And why the hell would any handheld gaming device need HD video encoding? It's not meant to replace a camcorder, the camera will be the cheapest thing Nintendo can get away with.

Yet 3DS look at the initial cost of every 3DS and Wii U, given their tech capabilities. I don't see why they can get a decent deal from other companies, they don't need to go Nvidia or PowerVR. They can go ARM or any other chip that is used and will make development way easier that going for a more particular and unique architecture, that's important so Wii U situation dosn't repeat....

And that's just an example, my point is that a dedicated gaming handheld is not going to cut it anymore.
 
Yet 3DS look at the initial cost of every 3DS and Wii U, given their tech capabilities. I don't see why they can get a decent deal from other companies, they don't need to go Nvidia or PowerVR. They can go ARM or any other chip that is used and will make development way easier that going for a more particular and unique architecture, that's important so Wii U situation dosn't repeat....

And that's just an example, my point is that a dedicated gaming handheld is not going to cut it anymore.
Nintendo is neither stupid nor sadomasochistic. They talked to everybody, evaluated all options, they even had Tegra based prototypes, but then they ultimately went with DMP. They certainly didn't do this because they love to use shitty hardware and torment their developers. The main difference between Nintendo and other companies is that Nintendo doesn't try to sell you hardware specs - they don't give a fuck how the hardware looks on paper, as long as it performs well and is easy to develop for ("develop for" doesn't mean "port to").
 
Nintendo is neither stupid nor sadomasochistic. They talked to everybody, evaluated all options, they even had Tegra based prototypes, but then they ultimately went with DMP. They certainly didn't do this because they love to use shitty hardware and torment their developers. The main difference between Nintendo and other companies is that Nintendo doesn't try to sell you hardware specs - they don't give a fuck how the hardware looks on paper, as long as it performs well and is easy to develop for ("develop for" doesn't mean "port to").

That's the problem: 3DS dosn't perform (or looks) well compared to hardware that was released in the same year. It was already outdated machine which newer component was a 3D sharp screen, which also gimped console graphic capabilities and made it too expensive. That can't happen again. Nintendo may not be stupid, but certainly dosn't mean they don't make stupid decisions.

And probably Vita is as easy to develop for while offering hardware specs. You don't trade one thing for another, or rather there's no need.

Also no need to pull the "3DS is selling and Vita no" card. We're talking from a tech standpoint.
 
If they just make it as powerful as a Vita, make it clamshell, and make a proper account system where I don't need police reports and to call a mother fucker on the phone if I need to transfer systems I'll slap an SD card in that bitch and go full digital.
 
1 big beautiful screen
No 3D
10 hours
$ 199
Matte
Advanced eShop
Fast OS

Not sure about the form factor and design.
Maybe something GBA-ish (hello Nokia 77xx):

2I7O9Ij.jpg

LvcfPiP.jpg
 
I expect it to be announced this year or next at the latest.

Hopefully it will ditch the 3D and be a true successor to the DS with two equally sized screens at a much better resolution. Really dislike how few touch-focused games there are on the 3DS, but it was inevitable due to the size difference of the screens and the fact that you're encouraged to look only at the top screen because of the 3D effect.

Would be cool if they made it backwards compatible, though.
 
I just want it to stay small. Anything bigger than the 3ds xl I don't really consider portable as it won't fit in my pockets.

Being a bit more powerful and having a slightly larger, higher resolution screen, like 480p, would be nice. A second circle pad wouldn't hurt either. I just hope they don't try to make it a tablet and emphasize awful touch controls. I just want to enjoy playing games on it, with proper button controls.
 
[an expensive console-handheld hybrid] will fail.

Handheld consoles won't sell for that much, really don't know why people have not realized this.
A handheld anything device used to mean a cheap toy/cell phone. Now people carry it around as something that's premium, well designed and cool.

Nintendo can't go all matte red with the design. It just looks stupid to hold compared to everything else now.
Obvious stuff like an HD screen and better technology aside, I do wonder whether Nintendo could release a game-focused handheld again. Launch it cheap, say $150, and lower software prices back to the DS/GBA era pricing plan - $29.99-$34.99 being the highest. If it is powerful enough & Nintendo allows for cross-platform play with other devices, like that Wii U chess game that can play with the phone version, then it could do well.

The price must be affordable and software pricing needs to come back into the realm of impulse buys. No reason iOS/Android games can't be released on the next Nintendo handheld at $0.99 or whatever they go for. Built-in memory of 32GB or so with SD card support again.
I agree with you guys, and anyone else who says the 3DS successor will have to be cheap. Very few mainstream consumers are willing to pay $200 or more for something that isn't a sleek, versatile status symbol device like a smartphone or tablet. Even the DS didn't really take off before a significant price drop. I think this rules out stereo 3D, and maybe even the dual-screen design.

Everyone carries a smart device around nowadays, so competing with them head-on in terms of features doesn't make a lot of sense if you're Nintendo. They'll probably put together an adequate OS/UI by 2014 standards, along with some framework for easy porting of Android/iOS apps just so it's there, but not much else. You'll never get the mainstream to replace their iStuff with a dedicated handheld that does smartphone things on the side anyway, so what you do instead is aim to be the perfect complementary device that people will want to carry with them alongside their smartphones. This also implies that clunky designs like the 3DS/XL won't fly, and that the device needs to be light, compact and have good battery life.

Nintendo rarely drops technology it has heavily invested in, so I could easily see them salvaging the Wii U by building whatever makes Off-TV play work as well as it does into the 3DS and Wii U successors so the two have synergy like the PS4 and Vita. I wouldn't be surprised if the handheld had the same resolution as the Wii U Gamepad (840 x 480) and similar processing power because of this, either. We might get 720p, which would push a 5 to 5.5 inch display into Retina iPad territory, but I'm not holding my breath.

Finally, Nintendo will probably want the system have some kind of hook that differentiates it from the competition aside from being a dedicated handheld gaming device. My money's on a haptic touchscreen. It's unique (provided they somehow manage to be one of the first on the market with a working implementation), easy to advertise, has plenty of gaming applications and feels like a natural evolution of the DS line's touchscreen.

If haptic technology is not ready within the next three years, I could also see them going for a sensor that can detect the position of your fingers around the device so you can interact with the game in 3D space, kinda like the Wiimote or Kinect.

The screen will be capacitive in both cases. Stylus may or may not return, based on how expensive it would be to implement.

So, let's recap:

- Profitable when sold at ~ $150.
- Sleek and light, can easily be carried around alongside your smartphone, doesn't look outdated and out of place when in use unlike the 3DS/XL.
- A single 800 x 480 screen, maybe 720p.
- Capacitive touch.
- Hardware comparable with the Wii U's, but weaker. I'm predicting ~ 150-200 gflops.
- Off-TV technology built-in.
- D-pad, ABXY, shoulder buttons, dual analog sliders.
- Haptic touch feedback or some other hook.

For the form factor: this is a huge stretch, but I wish Nintendo could somehow get a flexible display in there that could be folded sideways, like this;


You'd have a screen bigger than the Vita's when in use, but the device would be just a bit larger than a GBA SP when folded. Realistically, I think they'll go for a slate design. Kids are already used to iDevices anyway, so there's no point in sticking with the clamshell.
 
Really dislike how few touch-focused games there are on the 3DS, but it was inevitable due to the size difference of the screens and the fact that you're encouraged to look only at the top screen because of the 3D effect.

Yeah, I want to play Fire Emblem and Advance Wars (lol) with a stylus :/
 
That's the problem: 3DS dosn't perform (or looks) well compared to hardware that was released in the same year. It was already outdated machine which newer component was a 3D sharp screen, which also gimped console graphic capabilities and made it too expensive. That can't happen again. Nintendo may not be stupid, but certainly dosn't mean they don't make stupid decisions.

And probably Vita is as easy to develop for while offering hardware specs. You don't trade one thing for another, or rather there's no need.

Also no need to pull the "3DS is selling and Vita no" card. We're talking from a tech standpoint.

It really should have launched at $200, but Nintendo got overconfident.

At that price I really don't think you could have claimed it was underpowered for a gaming device considering it's features. 3D may not have turned out to be the best decisions overall, but it's understandable that a decent chunk of the cost went towards that, and also severely limited the possible resolution. The dual screen setup probably also inflate the cost quite a bit.

Xperia Play launched at about the same time for 600 euro, and while maybe not the most complete and balanced comparison, one of those devices runs Gunman Clive significantly better than the other.
although that version is a bit more optimised
 
Nintendo is neither stupid nor sadomasochistic. ... The main difference between Nintendo and other companies is that Nintendo doesn't try to sell you hardware specs - they don't give a fuck how the hardware looks on paper, as long as it performs well and is easy to develop for ("develop for" doesn't mean "port to").

These statements are fundamentally opposed to me. Not that Nintendo isn't concerned with porting difficulty-- I could believe that-- but that does make them stupid if that isn't a concern of theirs. Do you really think they aren't calculating at all how easy it is to bring games to their platform from other platforms?
 
Whatever it is, Nintendo needs to embrace modern screen technology and resolutions. The crap shoved out for the 3DS and Wii U Gamepad screens is just plain poor as far as I'm concerned. I say this as a happy owner of both systems.

I love my 3DS, but my eyes are now used to a retina iPhone/iPad screen. I want my favourite games to look vivid on a screen like that.

I also don't think 3D will continue to be a part of the lineup. It's already fast becoming a forgotten tech that failed to gain traction in both the console and portable space.
 
I'd love them to bring back the Gameboy brand. I think the biggest difficulty they'll face with any new handheld is how to compete with the mobile market - it's pretty clear from the Wii U that Nintendo games alone are not going to be enough so recapture the current 3DS user-base without having some special sauce.

I don't expect them to get involved in a specifications war because Nintendo has historically never taken that route and always ended up on top anyway (only applies to the handheld sector), and If there is one thing you can always count on Nintendo doing - it's sticking to the same damn strategy that worked for them last time regardless of how the markets might have changed since then.

Sony will probably back out of the mobile space looking at the Vita sales, so Nintendo pretty much have an open goal if they can make something that appeals to gamers and isn't already catered for by iOS/Android.

My suggestion would be rather than just the promise of Nintendo games, they need to make the system itself part of a huge online ecosystem that is distinctly Nintendo. Have some kind of Nintendoland-eqsue MMO built right into the OS itself, akin to what Playstation attempted with Home but with the charm and accessibility that Nintendo do so well, everytime a new game comes out they could expand the world with a new area where you can buy new items for your character and access demos and interact with the community. Would love to walk my Mii through Animal Forest, Hyrule and Pokemon worlds with friends. Maybe even making the OS itself a game with events and collectables.
 
That's the problem: 3DS dosn't perform (or looks) well compared to hardware that was released in the same year. It was already outdated machine which newer component was a 3D sharp screen, which also gimped console graphic capabilities and made it too expensive. That can't happen again. Nintendo may not be stupid, but certainly dosn't mean they don't make stupid decisions.

And probably Vita is as easy to develop for while offering hardware specs. You don't trade one thing for another, or rather there's no need.

Also no need to pull the "3DS is selling and Vita no" card. We're talking from a tech standpoint.
Outdated, gimped and too expensive? The system was released in early 2011 for just $250. The Vita came eight months later, same price, same shitty battery life with only a single very energy efficient screen, and a much larger battery. Is the hardware more efficient? Maybe, maybe not. I won't make that call, I never programmed for either system. Did you? Though looking at demanding games (from a performance standpoint), I think Nintendo did a pretty good job overall, even if 3D might have been an expensive misstep.
 
Yet 3DS look at the initial cost of every 3DS and Wii U, given their tech capabilities. I don't see why they can get a decent deal from other companies, they don't need to go Nvidia or PowerVR. They can go ARM or any other chip that is used and will make development way easier that going for a more particular and unique architecture, that's important so Wii U situation dosn't repeat....

And that's just an example, my point is that a dedicated gaming handheld is not going to cut it anymore.
The 'WiiU situation' was predated by the '3DS situation', but there nintendo managed to turn around the tide. You seem to be of the impression that the WiiU situation has something to do with the alleged PC incompatibility and generally low power levels, which you think could be addressed by more off-the-shelf and more power-driven designs. By that same logic vita should be handing the 3ds its own ass on a platter. Reality is far from that, though, so here are a few notes of consideration:
  • An off-the-shelf design would save nintendo on hw R&D (expenditures and timeframes), but not on chip manufacturing - those chips would still be custom made for nintendo, just as xbone and ps4 chips are custom-made for their respective platform holders. There are no '100 million other devices using the same SoC'.
  • A more off-the-shelf design would be cheaper to R&D per se, but nintendo do their design with certain considerations in mind - how expensive it would be to produce N million of that custom part over the course of M years - hw R&D would be but a fraction of the production costs at the end of those M years. Mind you, nintendo are not hunting for part pricing at alibaba.com (those 'analysts' using similar sources to gauge the BOM of various high-volume consumer devices never cease to amuse me) - they sign long-term and/or high-volume contracts with silicon manufactures - such contracts may or may not be re-negotiable at every minute market fluctuation. Anyhow, what I'm saying is that if you're unit-price-sensitive over a 5-year projected-lifespan product, R&D expenses are not your top concern - your unit-price is, which comes as a result of large contracts with factories and IP holders.
  • All those hw IP vendors you mentioned are fair game for nintendo's next handheld - the question is, how many of them could actually deliver on nintendo's requirements? Rumor has it, NV tried an failed with the 3ds (heck, looking at the 'lot' of their design wins, NV failed with most other players on the mobile markets during the T2 & T3 generations). Suggesting that nintendo could go with this or that IP vendor is just that - a suggestion, the viability of which is estimated by nintendo alone.
 
-Enter a partnership with big smart phone manufacturer.
-Release a smartphone with Nintendo input (controller) specifications that plays their games.
-This goes with a simultaneous release of a dedicated hanheld as they always do.
-Home console features the same chipset/architecture as the handheld with a higher processing power.
-Pray....
 
These statements are fundamentally opposed to me. Not that Nintendo isn't concerned with porting difficulty-- I could believe that-- but that does make them stupid if that isn't a concern of theirs. Do you really think they aren't calculating at all how easy it is to bring games to their platform from other platforms?
They're certainly calculating it, but I wouldn't want to pay for other people's laziness, either. Would it be worth it? And if not, why waste money on easy portability when there's no RoI?
 
Kids are already used to iDevices anyway, so there's no point in sticking with the clamshell.

Yep, and they've already started selling them to kids, or rather, restarted for the first time in a decade.
I agree with most points, it's hard to know what quirk they may put in the screen, as there's a lot of different tech out there, like haptics, pressure sensitivity through glass, floating touch etc.
Late next year you may see a 2DS xl and then the successor announced in 2015.
 
folding screens are going to be awesome for portable gaming in the future: hard buttons big screens and can fit comfortably in your pocket. that's the future of mobile gaming
 
HA! Sorry, bro, but the days of 10 hour battery life in anything handheld have long since passed.

PS Vita 2000:
In practice, we got up to eight hours of continuous gaming, and that's with brightness at 50 percent, WiFi on and several downloads during testing. This rocketed up to more than 12 hours when we played through less-intensive PSP and PS1 games.
engadget
 
This is freaking Nintendo we're talking about here: there is NO WAY IN HELL their next handheld is going to have a 1080p screen and it's highly unlikely that they're going to use a 720p screen.

It'll probably be 480p. That's already twice the 3DS's resolution, and exactly what the Gamepad uses. I could also see them going slightly lower (360p) or higher (540p like the Vita).

I really hope they don't nix 3D, but unfortunately I think they will. I also think that dual screens + clamshell are probably here to stay. I know the 2DS doesn't have them, but that's more of a low-cost alternative than it is a signal of what the future holds.
 
Anyone expecting a portable WiiU are going to be seriously disappointed.

Nintendo learned its lesson from the 3DS, they will aim for something that can be profitable at $150. which def won't be WiiU level hardware.
 
Anyone expecting a portable WiiU are going to be seriously disappointed.

Nintendo learned its lesson from the 3DS, they will aim for something that can be profitable at $150. which def won't be WiiU level hardware.

Eh, I think the system could perform similarly to Wii U if the resolution is capped at 800 x 480.
 
Outdated, gimped and too expensive? The system was released in early 2011 for just $250. The Vita came eight months later, same price, same shitty battery life with only a single very energy efficient screen, and a much larger battery. Is the hardware more efficient? Maybe, maybe not. I won't make that call, I never programmed for either system. Did you? Though looking at demanding games (from a performance standpoint), I think Nintendo did a pretty good job overall, even if 3D might have been an expensive misstep.
I just recently got one.

The hardware is terrible. Feels like a toy. This isn't the early 2000's...
 
I really hope Nintendo will release a handheld / console combo that is scalable. When you run on handheld alone you'll get lower resolution and / or performance and when you use the handheld as the gamepad connected to the TV box you'll get the top performance. Handheld alone for $200, with the console $300.

Don't know if this is easy, but as PC games work like this, it should not be very difficult. Plus the enormous benefit for Nintendo is they'll only have to develop for one platform, which means much more games.
 
With modern chips they should aim for Vita levels of performance and try to maximize profits. They're going to need a flotation device to weather them through the Wii U shit storm.
 
Whatever they go with I hope they finally decide to not make the VC shitty. It boggles my mind why my 3DS is not my portable SNES and GBA machine.
 
It boggles my mind why my 3DS is not my portable SNES and GBA machine.

Not enough cpu power in the 3ds to emulate those systems perfectly without a lot of custom work on each game (like M2 are doing with the Sega 3D Classics). Ever play SNES/GBA on the PSP? It was not a good experience.
 
Just realized that because of the low resolution of the 3DS there's no need to try to put in a vertical or twistable screen in the successor.

They can just put in a vertical 1080p screen, and it'll have more than enough pixels height wise to emulate the 3DS screens (I think).
 
Not enough cpu power in the 3ds to emulate those systems perfectly without a lot of custom work on each game (like M2 are doing with the Sega 3D Classics). Ever play SNES/GBA on the PSP? It was not a good experience.
I don't know anything about tech but im quite sure the 3DS could handle a GBA/SNES emulator at 100% speed.
 
Just realized that because of the low resolution of the 3DS there's no need to try to put in a vertical or twistable screen in the successor.

They can just put in a vertical 1080p screen, and it'll have more than enough pixels height wise to emulate the 3DS screens (I think).

512p would be enough, including space for a gap. But if it was a 16:9 screen there'd be an awful lot of black borders around them.
 
lol you're funny.

PS4 is irrealistic, but Wii U isn't irrealistic, still considering the $199.99 max price point. With a late 2016 launch in mind, a sort-of-Wii U with better shaders and less polygons is absolutely a possibility. If mobile tech accelerates further, a little more than Wii U could be possible as well. PS4 not at all...but I think a portable Wii U would be certainly enough for having great looking games. And, with the right tools, a bit of Western support (multi releases) as well.
 
Not really a successor but Nintendo have released some form of playing their handhelds on their home consoles for everything except DS / 3DS. The Wii U seems like the perfect fit, having a 2nd screen with a touch pad and all.

I'd buy one of these day one if they made them, or just let us download them from the virtual console. Wishful thinking at this point though, I'd say.
 
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