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[bonesmccoy]

Joke thread?

Actually, I love the FF7 and Dragon Hearts plots the best of all the RPG's I've ever played. WRPG's took a big credibility hit with the somehow near-universally applauded Dragon Age: Origins as well. No way in hell that POS tells a better story, or creates a better universe, than your average JRPG.

 

[Crash Station]

Why do these threads always end up being car wrecks?

This one was actually pretty mild. A few broken headlights and a messed up bumper but that's about it. Usually we got two totaled cars and possibly a lawsuit.

 

[HK-47]

Pretty sure Skies of Archadia is very positively regarded by gaffers who have played it.

So probably no.

I have bad memories of that game...

 

[Rolf NB]

Pretty sure Skies of Archadia is very positively regarded by gaffers who have played it.

So probably no.

It's a very poor imitation of a JRPG.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Why do these threads always end up being car wrecks?

1. 'JRPG' has been a dirty word around here for the last few years.
2. Thread title appeals to fans of the genre, while the actual OP insults the genre.

Frankly, I'm surprised this didn't go worse.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

Pretty sure Skies of Archadia is very positively regarded by gaffers who have played it.

So probably no.

It got number 11 on Gaf's Essential RPG list.

1. 'JRPG' has been a dirty word around here for the last few years.
2. Thread title appeals to fans of the genre, while the actual OP insults the genre.

Frankly, I'm surprised this didn't go worse.

JRPG's have been stuck in the mud for the past 20 years while WRPG's have always been innovative. Just look at Final Fantasy XIII compared to Fallout 3.

Really? Why? I've never actually played it. Never even heard of it til gaf.

What are you waiting for?

 

[Mael]

Why do people expect good writing for a translated work?
It's like saying, man Shakespeare's play sucks! I read Romeo & Juliet and it blows in basque!

For example, FFVII has one of the most horrendous translation I've ever seen and it never came to my mind to think "Man the story is badly written"

Spoiler

more like WTF does that even mean?

.

JRPG's have been stuck in the mud for the past 20 years while WRPG's have always been innovative. Just look at Final Fantasy XIII compared to Fallout 3.

Oh and fps are all games with fisher price toys like Halo?

 

[M°°nblade]

I have positive experiences of FFXII and Persona 4. That's all.

I dunno of many other jRPGs or RPGs in general that realistically portray school life in a particular culture, and also realistically portray teenagers. They're not normal, throwaway anime schoolchildren.

I did enjoy the link conversations and the themes in persona 4 but I wouldn't call the anime characters 'realistic' representations of teenagers.

Imo the general poor writing in jrpg's is amplified by equally poor translations. They never seem to find the right words to explain something. It's something wrpg's don't have to deal with.

 

[Mael]

I did enjoy the link conversations and the themes in persona 4 but I wouldn't call the anime characters 'realistic' representations of teenagers.

Imo the general poor writing in jrpg's is amplified by equally poor translations. They never seem to find the right words to explain something. It's something wrpg's don't have to deal with.

Except if you're not playing them in English in which case they're equally badly writen.

 

[ZephyrFate]

That list putting Nocturne at 20 already shames GAF's "essential" list. Fuck that. Give it at least #5 or some shit.

 

[Cep]

That list putting Nocturne at 20 already shames GAF's "essential" list. Fuck that. Give it at least #5 or some shit.

The order of that list is meaningless.

What is great about it is that it compiles 100 of the more playable RPGs out there.

Also, maybe it is just that damn good(will not know 'till march), but you sound like a Nocturne fanboy.

 

[M°°nblade]

Except if you're not playing them in English in which case they're equally badly writen.

Ah France, that sucks. If your english is good enough, you can always import your games from the UK or Benelux. I guess I'm lucky to live in the flanders. I once accidentally bought the french version of secret of mana when I was young. It was kind of funny (L'épée de mana :lol ) but it helped my french skills a lot.

Also, maybe it is just that damn good(will not know 'till march), but you sound like a Nocturne fanboy.

He's probably just trying to raise his hardcore credits. Nocturn isn't that good. Too much grinding, random encounters and generic dungeons layout. I remember my motivation was solely driven by the beautiful art design. #20 seems about right when I look at the top 20.

 

[Crash Station]

The order of that list is meaningless.

What is great about it is that it compiles 100 of the more playable RPGs out there.

Also, maybe it is just that damn good(will not know 'till march), but you sound like a Nocturne fanboy.

It's one of the hardest and most frustrating RPGs I've ever played. Guess I'm not "hardcore" enough. Hope you enjoy it more than I did. I eventually beat it but I had to force myself to not throw my controller at the wall.

 

[TheFLYINGManga_Ka]

I don't know, I love JRPGs, and I've played a lot of JRPGs, but the writing is like realy good manga/anime writing at best, which isn't saying much.

It's hard to take any typical JRPG seriously as a good piece of writing when there are cheesy fantasy elements like alchemy, magic, crystal chasing, summoning, etc built around ridiculous plots.

I think the localizations for the Mario & Luigi series has been pretty darn good because they're so hilarious and zany on purpose. The dialogue rolls off the tongue and it never takes itself seriously.

It's pretty sad when a game like that has some of the best writing among JRPGs.

I think the Lost Odyssey stuff mentioned by the TC is written by a renowned novelist, right? Which explains why they're better than the usual fluff.

 

[Mael]

Ah France, that sucks. If your english is good enough, you can always import your games from the UK or Benelux. I guess I'm lucky to live in the flanders. I once accidentally bought the french version of secret of mana when I was young. It was kind of funny (L'épée de mana :lol ) but it helped my french skills a lot.

Ahahah, I got SoM in french too, kinda fond of the game though, it really depends though for some games the french translation is actually better than the UK one.
I think of Zelda mostly, OoT in particular, are always great in french.
Anything big by Squareenix is usually better left in English though (FFVIII is infamous for changing all the magic/item names, stuffs like tents are actually 'red cross', I finished that game without using a single object but potions as I actually knew what they did...actually I kinda hate that game)

You should try FFVII, it's the most horrendous translation I've ever seen, it's on the level, if not worse, of Zero Wings.
I mean the game is fairly long and MOST of the text doesn't mean anything if it's not outright nonsense or something.
To understand it you need to translate the text on the screen in english THEN back again in french to get a good translation.
I swear my first topic here will be about that!

edit :
there's even a special easter egg only for the french version :
There's someone in the town late in the game

Spoiler

where you get back Cloud

that doesn't speak french AT ALL, his translation was not done and he speak in english :lol
Another one : the name in France for Cloud was originally not Cloud but Clad for reasons unknown...

 

[ZephyrFate]

Ah France, that sucks. If your english is good enough, you can always import your games from the UK or Benelux. I guess I'm lucky to live in the flanders. I once accidentally bought the french version of secret of mana when I was young. It was kind of funny (L'épée de mana :lol ) but it helped my french skills a lot.


He's probably just trying to raise his hardcore credits. Nocturn isn't that good. Too much grinding, random encounters and generic dungeons layout. I remember my motivation was solely driven by the beautiful art design. #20 seems about right when I look at the top 20.

... Raise my hardcore cred? Lol. Generic dungeons? Ooookay then. The best part about Nocturne that you apparently missed? Grinding is almost totally useless.

 

[HK-47]

Most of the Nocturne dungeons have nice art and music and some damn good puzzles. I really dont see how they are generic.

 

[firehawk12]

JRPG's have been stuck in the mud for the past 20 years while WRPG's have always been innovative. Just look at Final Fantasy XIII compared to Fallout 3.

Okay, I haven't played FF13, but if FF13 is a pale imitation of games past, then so is Fallout 3. There's a reason why people are excited for New Vegas.

 

[Alex Connolly]

I always liked the Front Mission games for their stories involving quasi-geopolitical upheaval. I doubt we'll see that in Evolved, but there's hope.

 

[Dead]

The best JRPG stories are the simple ones. I miss games like Lunar and the first Grandia which were relatively simple adventures driven by a great cast of characters.

 

[Zenogias]

I thought Vagrant Story had pretty good writing compared to most JRPG's. And Valkyrie Profile was quite good also.

 

[2San]

Okay, I haven't played FF13, but if FF13 is a pale imitation of games past, then so is Fallout 3. There's a reason why people are excited for New Vegas.

Well for what it's worth they(SE) do wanted to make FF13 like FF12. So without the transitions, but with the new system of regeneration health after battles. It was just to easy to exploit as en example they gave like if you ran away get full health and then run back and such(though this could be easily fixed by giving the enemy regenerative health as well >_>).

To bad they didn't take their time to implement it like that, that would've made the game so much better.

 

[putarorex]

Although they are not traditional JRPGs, I think the writing is pretty good in the Yakuza series, especially the second one. I have never played the English versions though, and cultural differences probably mean alot is lost in translation.

The context-heavy aspects of the language must make localization a bitch. Gamers are probably use to the aizuchi and exclamations, but it must be strange to your average westerner. The main problem though is the Japanese tendency toward the melodramatic. Many Japanese games I have played have a scene with the main character holding some dead friend and screaming his/her name at the sky (Yakuza does this).

 

[lucablight]

Why do some gamers have such a self loathing attitude? There are plenty of jrpgs with good enough writing to warrant comparison to a decent action or disney movie.

To name a few: The mainline Suikoden games, Persona 4, Dragon quest V, Mother 3, Lufia II to name just a few.
Anyone who has played those can't seriously say they never said wow at some part of the story.

Seriously the "HURR DURR all Jrpgs have terrible writing LOL" crowd are really annoying and need to broad their horizons.

 

[zoukka]

Most of the Nocturne dungeons have nice art and music and some damn good puzzles. I really dont see how they are generic.

Well most dungeons were some copy-paste warehouse, sewer, complex with extremely little art to them.

To name a few: The mainline Suikoden games, Persona 4, Dragon quest V, Mother 3, Lufia II to name just a few.
Anyone who has played those can't seriously say they never said wow at some part of the story.

Seriously? I played it a while ago on DS and I'm pretty sure the "writing" is designed to sound like a big joke. We truly are in a deep hole if this game is considered good in that area.

 

[lucablight]

Seriously? I played it a while ago on DS and I'm pretty sure the "writing" is designed to sound like a big joke. We truly are in a deep hole if this game is considered good in that area.

What aspects of it made it seem like a "big joke" to you?

 

[zoukka]

What aspects of it made it seem like a "big joke" to you?

Well everything was very naive, childish even. Characters were simple charicatyres. Not that this is a very bad thing, but It's still pretty far from anything interesting. I really can't remember anything about the game outside

Spoiler

dad dying, hero turning to stone, marrying someone

. I have no recollection of the main motivator for the characters :b

 

[lucablight]

Well everything was very naive, childish even. Characters were simple charicatyres. Not that this is a very bad thing, but It's still pretty far from anything interesting. I really can't remember anything about the game outside

Spoiler

dad dying, hero turning to stone, marrying someone

. I have no recollection of the main motivator for the characters :b

Alrighty then. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I thought it was a charming story.

 

[M°°nblade]

... Raise my hardcore cred? Lol. Generic dungeons? Ooookay then. The best part about Nocturne that you apparently missed? Grinding is almost totally useless.

Not true at all. I already had to grind early in the game to be able to defeat the matador, one of the first bosses in the game. Later, I had to do the same in order to beat thor.
I still remember these things so well after 5 years because they are mental scars.

Most of the Nocturne dungeons have nice art and music and some damn good puzzles. I really dont see how they are generic.

The art and layout in some of the later dungeons were so generic that I needed pen and paper to draw the fucking map to be able to navigate through it. The last games that required me to do this were shining in the darkness and phantasy star 1. Any game that still needs this anno 2004 doesn't deserve a place in the top 5 of best RPG's ever.

 

[Amir0x]

The developers had no rules when making their games. There are principles, but NEVER rules. If you're asking whether an RPG should have certain things, I would say no to all of them. There are no rules. What's so hard to understand?

No rule there should be good writing. No handbook. That's how JRPGs got away with it - and they were better for it, if only because the development team could focus on more important things.

Funny when Square actually got a good script with The Spirits Within... And nobody watched it.

False choice. One does not have to 'settle' for bad writing so that they may receive good gameplay (even though with Squeenix titles, even that is often suspect).

It's also a false choice because writing a bad story does not allow a team suddenly more time to make better gameplay.

Actually, your entire post is bizarrely incorrect. Like you didn't think it through.

 

[ULTROS!]

People hating JRPGs because they're not evolving...again? Why not hate on FPS games as well, also sports games.

Not evolving does not equate to completely sucking or getting less popular (see Dragon Quest).

 

[Augemitbutter]

Not true at all. I already had to grind early in the game to be able to defeat the matador, one of the first bosses in the game. Later, I had to do the same in order to beat thor.
I still remember these things so well after 5 years because they are mental scars.


The art and layout in some of the later dungeons were so generic that I needed pen and paper to draw the fucking map to be able to navigate through it. The last games that required me to do this were shining in the darkness and phantasy star 1. Any game that still needs this anno 2004 doesn't deserve a place in the top 5 of best RPG's ever.

nocturne is pretty much a dated game anyway. if you want better alternatives, go for DDS, or the Persona games if one can take the change in artstyle. Devil Summoner 2 is more real timey, but also vastly better.

 

[dramatis]

Well for what it's worth they(SE) do wanted to make FF13 like FF12. So without the transitions, but with the new system of regeneration health after battles. It was just to easy to exploit as en example they gave like if you ran away get full health and then run back and such(though this could be easily fixed by giving the enemy regenerative health as well >_>).

To bad they didn't take their time to implement it like that, that would've made the game so much better.

The reason this team wanted more seamless transitions was to make the game more cinematic, it has nothing to do with making it like 12.

Running away to regenerate is really not a good idea, because you may have already used resources in that battle, and running away will not net you those resources back. Doing that would also defeat the purpose of challenge in individual battles.

 

[Sullen]

Threads like these depress me, Himuro.

 

[Gorgon]

Nocturne has the best writing of any JRPG ever. But that's only because there are like no character interactions, and it's not trying to shove a love story down your throat.

If what you mean by "writing" is the basic storyline, ambience, philosophies and world building, then yes. If you mean actual text writing than no. The few dialogs, demon negotiations, etc in the game was laughable shit as if the devs had some awesome ideas and then they decided to put their 12 year old kids writing the actual text. Maybe it's a translation fault but I honestly don't believe that's all. And honestly, a character that writes for an Occult magazine? How sophomoric is that shit? Felt to me like I was watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

 

[MechaX]

I always liked the Front Mission games for their stories involving quasi-geopolitical upheaval. I doubt we'll see that in Evolved, but there's hope.

The thing about Front Mission is that the series has one of the better written worlds out of all RPGs. But the individual games tend to vary (in terms of writing good characters, a good central plot, etc). I would say that the way that the writers crafted the larger, continuing part of the story in an exceptional manner (to the degree where every seemingly minor thing actually makes sense to the point where plot holes are virtually non-existent). Too bad people have probably not played the most crucial FM games that concern its world view (FM1, FM2, FM5).

 

[2San]

The reason this team wanted more seamless transitions was to make the game more cinematic, it has nothing to do with making it like 12.

Running away to regenerate is really not a good idea, because you may have already used resources in that battle, and running away will not net you those resources back. Doing that would also defeat the purpose of challenge in individual battles.

I only meant the battle system. They gave that as reason, watch EP94 of Invisible walls on GT.

 

[Amneisac]

I know this was covered in the OP, but I think it needs to be repeated that the "dreams" in Lost Odyssey are great writing for any video game genre.

 

[Blackace]

People hating JRPGs because they're not evolving...again? Why not hate on FPS games as well, also sports games.

Not evolving does not equate to completely sucking or getting less popular (see Dragon Quest).

actually FPS are evolving, ironically enough by adding RPG elements to the games and of course story telling elements. Sports games are as well by adding different modes to play through like making a rookie trying to get drafted by a team and so on. Also online franchises and gameplay that is closer to the game it is simulating.. so each of those genres are indeed expanding.

DQ is the only franchise that seems to "get it" lately in the JRPGs. With nine they took old school gameplay but updated with all the bells and whistles. Even with character customization.. It was real good. Actually makes trying to play six now a little tough.

Games like Demon's Soul is another one that seems to not want to limit the players as much as other JRPGs tend to do.

There are many that I enjoy but not as many as I used to..

 

[Cornbread78]

People hating JRPGs because they're not evolving...again? Why not hate on FPS games as well, also sports games.

Not evolving does not equate to completely sucking or getting less popular (see Dragon Quest).

Wow I come back to work, log on GAF and this thread is stil near the top and we have ourselves an ol' school East coast vs. West coast battle like Biggie vs. Pac.

I really don't get all the hate for either side at this point. They each have their own ambiance involved in their characters, plots and story telling.

In regards to the Genre getting old, who the F cares. I mean, does baseball suck because it's the same game as it was over a 100 years ago? Does soccer suck because it an ancient sport as well? Give me a fu(king sword, a bow, a wand, some fire magic a few companions that magically want to fight for my cause and beat the wizard gone bad, who stole the beautiful princess (that I want to bang ever which way 'till Sunday), go through a few towns and dungeons to the final epic battle to Save her or save the world and I'm buying it. New game, new names, same type of story, but we play through them because if the story has any writing quality at all, it is different, it takes us away to a far away land, an excape from reality for most and we always try to relate with the main characters. That actually represents most JRPGs, however, WRPGs have the same story value, that can takes us away and make us believe and immerse ourselves into a nw world. If I can fall into a story and put myself into any characters shoes, then I'll play it, $hit, everybody needs to get away once in awhile, I don't if it is a battle system like WKC, Star Ocean3, FFVII or even FFX-2.... Give me a game with a good story and I'm hooked, Fu(k the rest.

 

[BluWacky]

I know this was covered in the OP, but I think it needs to be repeated that the "dreams" in Lost Odyssey are great writing for any video game genre.

The thing about those dreams is that they don't have to fulfil the role that a narrative, dialogue etc. in a JRPG normally do.

They're just short stories about the characters. No-one has to say anything - the dialogue in them is pretty minimal, unsurprising since Kain barely ever speaks anyway. They have little or nothing to do with anything in the actual game - the closest they get is Seth's backstory but otherwise they all take place in places you never go to. They could be about anything or anyone.

Don't get me wrong, they're well written, but it's not Lost Odyssey itself that has good writing, it's A Thousand Years of Dreams by Kiyoshi Shigematsu and translated by Jay Rubin that has good writing.

 

[Llyranor]

Which is too bad, since they already hired him to do some writing. But nooooo, let's have our usual game designers who can't write for crap do the main story.

 

[Prime crotch]

For writting quality you can't do much better than FF12, mainly due to the localization process.
Plus, the fact you have the most story irrelevant main character, and the game acknowledges it, is a feat.

 

[djtiesto]

Sorry that I haven't replied, yet. I didn't get a chance to check this thread until now, and now it's huge and there's no way I can reply to everything.

Anyways, I think almost everyone can agree that JRPG writing needs to improve, considering the prevalence of dialogue and story in the genre. Given that writing quality should be a high priority for JRPG developers, what's the best way to achieve that? Would hiring more professional writers/translators (like Mistwalker did for the Thousand Year Dreams in Lost Odyssey) be enough? Is there something about the JRPG design process that's holding back writing and should be changed?


I could be wrong, but I think this is the first thread I've made on the topic; usually I rant about RPG combat systems.

Yeah, definitely hiring better translators who know the original audience for a game would go a long way into improving dialogue. The WD Lunar games are a great example - pretty cliched (especially nowadays) games livened up by a translation and characters that don't take things all too seriously. I hear the text in the original Japanese versions is quite dry, and the games themselves have extremely basic, and slightly grindy, turn-based gameplay, but the games still have a loyal cult following in the west thanks in no small part to Vic's translation work.

Also, hiring actual writers during development may be a good idea - Itoi for instance is a published author in Japan, and look at all the people in here who enjoyed Mother 3. Though it would help if the writer has knowledge of games, otherwise you may get a bit of a disconnect between gameplay and story.

Good example of gameplay+story connect ... Beginning of DQ5, when your dad escorts you (a 6 year old kid) to town. Your dad will heal you after getting wounded by Slimes. Not to mention, the way the game uses the standard DQ battle system to show story events, i.e.

Spoiler

your dad battling the slavers, eventually succumbing to them

.

 

[HK-47]

actually FPS are evolving, ironically enough by adding RPG elements to the games and of course story telling elements. Sports games are as well by adding different modes to play through like making a rookie trying to get drafted by a team and so on. Also online franchises and gameplay that is closer to the game it is simulating.. so each of those genres are indeed expanding.

DQ is the only franchise that seems to "get it" lately in the JRPGs. With nine they took old school gameplay but updated with all the bells and whistles. Even with character customization.. It was real good. Actually makes trying to play six now a little tough.

Games like Demon's Soul is another one that seems to not want to limit the players as much as other JRPGs tend to do.

There are many that I enjoy but not as many as I used to..

Yup, FPSs are evolving by adding things that were done over a decade ago and better than they are now...hooray!

 

[PepsimanVsJoe]

It's a sewer. What the fuck do you expect?



Having to draw a map has nothing to do with being generic.

Wait a tic I could have sworn Nocturne had an automap. Okay yeah I think there were some dungeons or parts of dungeons where maps weren't available but hey whatever.

 

[TheExodu5]

Not true at all. I already had to grind early in the game to be able to defeat the matador, one of the first bosses in the game. Later, I had to do the same in order to beat thor.
I still remember these things so well after 5 years because they are mental scars.

Oh, Nocturne is scaring indeed. However, you do not need to grind early on to defeat Matador. If you're prepared with the right set of skills (fog breath, physical resistance), it's a piece of cake. SMT games are very much about learning from your defeats. This is not archaic design, it's simply a different approach. I find SMT's gameplay particularly satisfying and engaging.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

Yup, FPSs are evolving by adding things that were done over a decade ago and better than they are now...hooray!

What imaginative minds.

 

[YuriLowell]

FPS evolve to give me worse gunplay.
What is it with FPS and shoddy gunplay these days.

 

[Neuromancer]

I thought Dragon Quest VIII had good writing

Spoiler

Cor blimey!