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Let's talk about the friend zone

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ZackieChan said:
But how can one prove that they are the most liberal on NeoGaf without making a blanket proclamation about the inherently sexist nature of something that has numerous non-sexist reasons?
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What's the point of this? You're essentially describing a conversation between people who disagree on a subject for various reasons, though the passive-aggressive assumption you've tacked on shows you're not very good at respecting the differing perspectives contained within one.
 
I agree that in general this stuff is overblown, and that it's certainly often used by people who are nothing but bitter, sexist dicks who feel entitled to sex.

But I think there is a little something to it. I think the ladder theory, despite being overall very flawed and written by an asshole, comes somewhere close to it. I think for a lot of single men it's true that there's no real distinction between female (or whatever gender) friends and those they'd like to have sex with. That doesn't mean that's all they're interested in, but if the opportunity arose they'd happily take it.

And at the same time I think that's not true for a lot of women. They do have people of their preferred gender whom they like a lot but don't ever look at in a romantic way.

So I think it's this slight disparity that people feel and then feed off of to develop some really shitty ideas and habits. But I think it does exist in some way. The reality is that the onus is on you to develop and present yourself in a way that is conducive to being viewed as a romantic interest, if that's what you want.

Components of that include confidence, being actually nice in a non-transactional way, and making your intentions clear at the appropriate time and not simply hoping they'll one day decide to have sex with you. Begging for pity and being passive aggressive is about as big a turnoff as there is.
 
Permanently A said:
There are some strange definition of friendzone in this thread. As far as I know, its simply when you're attracted to someone and they aren't attracted to you. So you're stuck as friends.
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This. Quite frankly, the friend zone is underrated. I mean, you're unable to become more intimate with them, but just having friends is good enough. If your only investment in the "friendship" is to get into their pants, then it doesn't sound like you're really a friend at all.
 
Goliath said:
What?!

That is ridiculous. Friendzoned guys aren't some group of sexist pigs just seeing women as sex objects.
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Well, then why define the status of your relationship with a woman by her choice of wanting to be with you or not? Why is the common "friendzone" conversation "she friendzoned me" combined with seeking pity, sympathy, or positive acknowledgment instead of any of the other billions of things you can say about the other person? Why is "getting put in the friendzone" regarded as something the rejecter did to someone instead of being seen as that person just making a valid choice and being left alone for it? Why does it even matter if she did this to someone if one was actually interested in the friendship?
 
Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
What's the point of this? You're essentially describing a conversation between people who disagree on a subject for various reasons, though the passive-aggressive assumption you've tacked on shows you're not very good at respecting the differing perspectives contained within one.
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Probably because people are desperately looking for something that's not there and/or (purposely?) misinterpreting it to fit their agenda. A common theme on this forum. At least that's what I got from that post.
 
I've always found the concept of a "friend zone" problematic but I've never been sure exactly why. On one hand it seems fine to have a shorthand for one person being interested romantically and the other person not be, but still wanting to be friends. But it seems to lay a lot of the blame and expectations on the one doing the "friend zoning," typically a woman.
 
Memes and overuse of the term have got a lot of people on the internet all flustered about the word with a dozen different assigned meanings and implications attached to it. As you can see, not even the people in this thread can agree by a long shot. All that really amounts to is the fact that it depends on how it is used.

At a basic level it just means that someone who attempted romantic advances toward another was seen as nice enough to count as a friend, but not as a romantic partner. There's nothing sinister about that. It's something that happens. It's a word to describe a certain situation. There's nothing to "believe" in.
I have been friendzoned by a girl and I have friendzoned a girl. It didnt mean anyone owed anyone anything. It meant one of us was not interested in taking things to a romantic level but were interested in friendship.

In OP's case, his friend is simply warning him to turn up the heat before the situation goes cold. Strike while the iron is hot. It's good advice. It doesn't mean anything exciting.

The only stupid thing about "getting friendzoned" is how some people respond to it. Some losers will hang around acting like a sad puppy whining about how hard they tried, these are the jackasses who think they're owed something. However other people will accept how it turned out and just count that person as a friend. Others will decide to just take the L and walk. The post-friendzone reaction is the part people take issue with.
 
HawksWinStanley said:
Probably because people are desperately looking for something that's not there and/or (purposely?) misinterpreting it to fit their agenda.
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I don't know about the "Desperately" part but people trying to tweak/redefine the meaning FriendZone as it's been largely used for the past 20+ years are more likely to be the people looking for something that's not readily evident as a means to reinterpret the term to better fit within their comfort levels.

Seriously, there's really no clearer definition of "the FriendZone" than what Pashmilla posted earlier:

The friend zone is born out of the sexist notion that a girl is obligated to repay a man showing basic human decency to her with sex

That's what The FriendZone is, was, has been, will continue to be. People attempting to shift that so that it's somehow acceptable, or at least nicer than that, are probably doing so either because they're not familiar with its history outside of their own brief experience with the concept, or because they are familiar with the history and would just like to rewrite it to their own convenience.
 
So there's a couple things, the "friendzone" which does not exist, can mean different things. The definition I run with, because men are fuckboys, is that feeling when a person feels like they are owed sex because they were a shoulder to cry on or acted like a decent human. And yes, this is real, you may not act this way, no one cares.

Then there is the whole "a friend I liked rejected me, now I'm in the friendzone :(" okay and? You two won't smash, move on. You two are friends, keep that shit. You don't have to want to smash all of your attractive friends

So yeah, the "friendzone" is fucking dumb.
 
Bobby Roberts said:
I don't know about the "Desperately" part but people trying to tweak/redefine the meaning FriendZone as it's been largely used for the past 20+ years are more likely to be the people looking for something that's not readily evident as a means to reinterpret the term to better fit within their comfort levels.

Seriously, there's really no clearer definition of "the FriendZone" than what Pashmilla posted earlier:

The friend zone is born out of the sexist notion that a girl is obligated to repay a man showing basic human decency to her with sex

That's what The FriendZone is, was, has been, will continue to be. People attempting to shift that so that it's somehow acceptable, or at least nicer than that, are probably doing so either because they're not familiar with its history outside of their own brief experience with the concept, or because they are familiar with the history and would just like to rewrite it to their own convenience.
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You say that as if it's gospel, but many people in here obviously disagree and give, imo, perfectly reasonable explanations as to why.
 
LionPride said:
So there's a couple things, the "friendzone" which does not exist, can mean different things. The definition I run with, because men are fuckboys, is that feeling when a person feels like they are owed sex because they were a shoulder to cry on or acted like a decent human. And yes, this is real, you may not act this way, no one cares.

Then there is the whole "a friend I liked rejected me, now I'm in the friendzone :(" okay and? You two won't smash, move on. You two are friends, keep that shit. You don't have to want to smash all of your attractive friends

So yeah, the "friendzone" is fucking dumb.
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So you just explained with two perfect examples why the friendzone exists. And yes, it is dumb. The friendzone exists because stupidity exists.
 
ZackieChan said:
You say that as if it's gospel, but many people in here obviously disagree and give, imo, perfectly reasonable explanations as to why.
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And I acknowledged and explained why that is.

But just because people want a thing to mean something else doesn't mean it actually means that thing. You're essentially copping to the part of my post that says people are actively trying to shift the definition of the term because they don't like what it actually is.

But that's what it is.
 
God Dayumm said:
So you just explained with two perfect examples why the friendzone exists. And yes, it is dumb. The friendzone exists because stupidity exists.
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Nah, it shouldn't exist. There is no friendzone, you are just friends. That's okay. Unless you're a fuckboy who feels like he's owed a chance at that vagina because you were there for her "in her most trying times!" In which case, stop being a fuck boy
 
Bobby Roberts said:
I mean, it's starting to sound like we're cool with blaming women for creating guys who blame women for their own insecurities, here.

That's not what we're doing right?
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It's like w/ many things - people send and receive mixed messages from other people that end up a confusing mess. (This isn't unique to straight men and dating in the slightest.) Serano's "Why Nice Guys Finish Last" is a great look at the contradictory messages that men receive (specifically starting on page 232 and going through 235) - https://web.archive.org/web/20150509121454/https://www.geneseo.edu/webfm_send/3244
 
The freind zone is bullshit. No one owes you anything. If a girl doesn't find you attractive then let it go.

I've been through that.

I fell for a classmate than then became a friend. Not knowing she was in a long term relationship.

I, naively went all out I trying to impress her and it backfired.

We all do stupid shit with emotions.
 
Friendzone doesn't exist.

The onus for setting up false expectations for a relationship end up falling on the person imagining it. I can understand there are instances where people might be led on maliciously, but more often than not online it's people simply not picking up on cues.
 
The friend zone is a prison of one's own making.

If you have the hots for someone, ask them out. If they reject you, move on. Or be their friend, but not only because you are just waiting for the day they may change their mind.
 
kirblar said:
It's like w/ many things - people send and receive mixed messages from other people that end up a confusing mess. (This isn't unique to straight men and dating in the slightest.) Serano's "Why Nice Guys Finish Last" is a great look at the contradictory messages that men receive (specifically starting on page 232 and going through 235) - https://web.archive.org/web/20150509121454/https://www.geneseo.edu/webfm_send/3244
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This is a good read for this thread!

As an anecdotal add-on to this, I like how she plainly states on 233 what I've observed as true in my own life: in popular straight American culture, there's such a pressure on a dude to be the asshole sexual aggressor to conquer, but once I was in late college and got really liberal with a more gay and diverse set of friends and acquaintances, I saw that same strategy completely flop 100% of the time on everyone I knew. It didn't do a thing for anyone, and as a strategy was likely just to get you shut out cold forever (which Serano seems to have done to her friend Eric). I'm old as fuck now and have kept friends like this for a decade now, so this asshole stuff just seems like dated shit from a different age (though which I definitely did myself a bit), but it persists strongly in our dominant culture for many different reasons.
 
sugarhigh4242 said:
100. Buying into PUA logic like "friend zone" will only make you more repulsive to women.
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Yeah, I think some of this thread could use googling "pua friendzone" "mra friendzone" "friendzone bitch" or anything of the sort to get into the modern roots and purpose of this whole thing.

Urban Dictionary: Bitchzone
www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Bitchzone
Dec 29, 2011 ... The guys version of the friendzone. If your crush suddenly put's you in the friendzone, put her in the bitchzone!
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Cool.
 
LionPride said:
But when you hear about people upset about being "friendzoned" who is it complaining?

Okay then
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Pretty sure everyone who gets friendzoned is upset about it. It's not a desired situation to be in, unless you think the ladies don't complain about how the guy they're really into has zero romantic feelings towards them.
 
kirblar said:
It's like w/ many things - people send and receive mixed messages from other people that end up a confusing mess. (This isn't unique to straight men and dating in the slightest.) Serano's "Why Nice Guys Finish Last" is a great look at the contradictory messages that men receive (specifically starting on page 232 and going through 235) - https://web.archive.org/web/20150509121454/https://www.geneseo.edu/webfm_send/3244
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There's no mixed message. This is wrong:

Male children often receive lots of explicit encouragement to be respectful of women. Even in adulthood, men who make blatantly sexist comments, or who suggest (in mixed company, at least) that women are "only good for one thing" will often be looked down upon and taken to task for it. So when it comes to their formal socialization, boys/men receive plenty of encouragement to be "nice guys".
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Expecting that just being nice to someone and hanging around them will merit you sex and romance is the opposite of respecting women. It doesn't respect our autonomy. It's not even being nice if you're only doing a thing with the hope of earning specific favors for it.

When society implores men to respect women, it's not saying do that because that's how you win the sex. It's saying do that because we should be nice to everyone, period, because being nice is nice.
 
HawksWinStanley said:
Pretty sure everyone who gets friendzoned is upset about it. It's not a desired situation to be in, unless you think the ladies don't complain about how the guy they're really into has zero romantic feelings towards them.
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I mean the "I was such a nice guy towards her! Why does she not want me?!" Levels of "friendzone"
 
le.phat said:
What's there to say ? Sometimes people like you, just not in a romantic way. Sometimes people think they might like you, but if they get to know you better, they realise your not romance material ( but can still be a welcome factor in their life ).

The friend-zone only exists as a concept, because people in general fucking suck at being turned down.
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And turning people down. In a right and good world, person A would not prevaricate and just say "I like you but not romantically," and person B would say "okay" and either move on and stay friends or disengage cleanly.

In the real world, that doesn't happen. People are often terrible about actually verbalizing what they're feeling, and people in turn are often terrible about either accepting the reality ("no, he/she's into me, I'm sure") or moving on.

Friend zoning exists, I guess the issue I have with it is it's generally a self-centered appraisal of the situation. It's easy to see innocuous details or someone making mistakes as some sort of insidious plot or vengeful move against you when you're the star of your own film.
 
Fuchsdh said:
Friend zoning exists, I guess the issue I have with it is it's generally a self-centered appraisal of the situation. It's easy to see innocuous details or someone making mistakes as some sort of insidious plot or vengeful move against you when you're the star of your own film.
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This is such a good explanation.
 
David H Wong said:
You can't possibly believe that. It's one person being in love and the other not returning it. You do believe romantic love is a thing, right? That people have feelings that are distinct from friendship, and that it hurts to not have that returned?

It's fucking weird that we get mad at people - particularly men - for developing romantic feelings toward a friend and daring to be frustrated by that. "Friendship and lifelong intimacy are exactly the same thing! You should be happy with either one! Otherwise, you're just a sex-crazed animal!"
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No, no, no. If you're friends after stating your intentions and getting rejected, but you're both okay with being friends, that's just called being friends.

If you've been rejected but you're still friends as a way to stick around trying to find your "in" then you're an ass who's now in a self-imposed friend zone.
 
AntraxSuicide said:
No, no, no. If you're friends after stating your intentions and getting rejected, but you're both okay with being friends, that's just called being friends.

If you've been rejected but you're still friends as a way to stick around trying to find your "in" then you're an ass who's now in a self-imposed friend zone.
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This is so fucking obvious, but why can't they see it?
 
Fuchsdh said:
Friend zoning exists, I guess the issue I have with it is it's generally a self-centered appraisal of the situation. It's easy to see innocuous details or someone making mistakes as some sort of insidious plot or vengeful move against you when you're the star of your own film.
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Love this. Being "friendzoned" posits you as the victim of something--"this thing *happened* to me".

In reality, someone just sees you as a friend. There's nothing tragic about it unless you can't accept reality and move on.

AntraxSuicide said:
No, no, no. If you're friends after stating your intentions and getting rejected, but you're both okay with being friends, that's just called being friends.

If you've been rejected but you're still friends as a way to stick around trying to find your "in" then you're an ass who's now in a self-imposed friend zone.
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UBqzaqv.gif
 
AntraxSuicide said:
No, no, no. If you're friends after stating your intentions and getting rejected, but you're both okay with being friends, that's just called being friends.

If you've been rejected but you're still friends as a way to stick around trying to find your "in" then you're an ass who's now in a self-imposed friend zone.
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haha, this is so good and spot on. It's amazing how much people try to complicate this and then explain away how it's not complicated or fucked behavior. It really is as simple as this.
 
Fudgepuppy said:
Two weeks ago, I told a friend of mine that I wasn't sure if I wanted to date a specific girl. I wanted to get to know her a bit more because at that point I didn't feel like we clicked in the way I wanted to.

She said "Well hurry up and do something quick, because soon she'll put you in the friend zone".

This was so odd to hear, because I thought that among experienced people, the concept had been killed.

I remember lamenting and hating being just a friend with every girl I met in high school, but nowadays I groan at it all, thinking about how much of an idiot I was. Sure I was a nice guy, still am, but I wasn't a "nice-guy". I was just nice to people because I wanted to be, because it was the instinctual thing to be.

So let's talk about it, what are your opinions about it, do you believe in it?

Edit. To clarify I'm not looking for advice. I did take the girl out for a date, we had fun and became friends with benefits. I'm not interested in anything more.
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The mere concept of the friend zone is a patriarchal idea that men are entitled to a women if he acts like a "nice guy" to her. There is nothing wrong with the idea that a man/women doesn't have romantic feelings for someone who "is a nice guy."
 
Five said:
There's no mixed message. This is wrong:

Expecting that just being nice to someone and hanging around them will merit you sex and romance is the opposite of respecting women. It doesn't respect our autonomy. It's not even being nice if you're only doing a thing with the hope of earning specific favors for it.

When society implores men to respect women, it's not saying do that because that's how you win the sex. It's saying do that because we should be nice to everyone, period, because being nice is nice.
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It's not about "earning", it's about the lack of aggression not working. These guys are trying to interact the "right" way based on what they've been told by others. But its backfiring, because that sort of passive behavior doesn't work in an cultural environment where the other gender has been taught to expect you to be the initiator.

Notably, this whole "predator/prey" paradigm breaks down In a gay/lesbian environment, because you become both predator and prey. Since there's no longer gendered sides, everyone has to both be the Tennis server and the one hitting the ball back at some point.
 
Count Dookkake said:
The friend zone is a prison of one's own making.

If you have the hots for someone, ask them out. If they reject you, move on. Or be their friend, but not only because you are just waiting for the day they may change their mind.
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Exactly. I used to put myself in that self-imposed prison with different girls and finally realized what I was doing and was able to learn and grow from it.

This thread has been a really interesting read.
 
Sakura friendzoned Naruto......

But did she?

She made it very clear that Sasuke was the guy that she wanted.......

Naruto was willing to do anything for her.....

Sasuke wasn't.....

Yet.... Sasuke wins.....


Trying to bring some humor in the thread...lol
 
In my experience the friendzone only happens when the person finds you slightly attractive but has better options. I friendzome girls all the time because there are better looking girls I can be with. But because the girls like me they still remain friends because it gives them hope, being around me gives them a dopamine rush, and I assume it's the same with women who friendzone men.

So basically you won't fuck the friend but you keep them around for the validation.

Also I'm not gay but I also friendzone gay guys because I love the validation.
 
Mediking said:
Sakura friendzoned Naruto......

But did she?

She made it very clear that Sasuke was the guy that she wanted.......

Naruto was willing to do anything for her.....

Sasuke wasn't.....

Yet.... Sasuke wins.....


Trying to bring some humor in the thread...lol
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Naruto Nice Guy
Sasuke Asshole BF

This is too real for me.
 
The friend zone is a real thing but it's not the end all be all that some make it out to be. I've spent months in the friend zone waiting for women to become single so I could make a move.
 
It doesn't exist.

Also I wish I could at least be in the "friendzone".....I'm currently in the "I have no-friendzone". I can't be sympathetic at all to these dudes who complain about being in the "friendzone," when no one even wants to be friends with me.
 
AntraxSuicide said:
No, no, no. If you're friends after stating your intentions and getting rejected, but you're both okay with being friends, that's just called being friends.

If you've been rejected but you're still friends as a way to stick around trying to find your "in" then you're an ass who's now in a self-imposed friend zone.
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Well said and I agree with this view on the topic.

There can clearly be a difference between acting nice and simply being nice. If the reason you are acting nicely towards others is because you have ulterior motives, for example in terms of how you expect them to act towards you in return, then you weren’t actually being nice to begin with.
 
kirblar said:
It's not about "earning", it's about the lack of aggression not working. These guys are trying to interact the "right" way based on what they've been told by others. But its backfiring, because that sort of passive behavior doesn't work in an cultural environment where the other gender has been taught to expect you to be the initiator.

Notably, this whole "predator/prey" paradigm breaks down In a gay/lesbian environment, because you become both predator and prey. Since there's no longer gendered sides, everyone has to both be the Tennis server and the one hitting the ball back at some point.
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But that's exactly what I'm saying. The problem isn't being nice. The problem is conflating nicety with passivity. There are ways to flirt with and court someone that aren't aggressive and predatory. It doesn't take being an asshole to let someone know that you're into them.
 
Yoritomo said:
The friend zone is somewhere you put yourself and not something someone else does to you.

The "friend" in the friend zone is only in a friend zone because they want more and the object of their lust isn't attracted to them.

They then put on a pity party until they reveal their true colors as a disingenuous asshole trying a failed strategy to get laid.

It's a cage designed by the person that is usually in the friend zone.

If you want to be friends and their attraction to you doesn't matter, then you're friends. There is no friend zone.

If you want to be friends and you're attracted to them and they are not attracted to you and you say nothing about your attraction or ever explicitly act on it because you fear rejection and instead draw out the rejection process through a complicated set passive aggressive behaviors, then you are in the friend zone and it will end badly.

To avoid the friend zone you have to make a move and accept rejection or just move on emotionally.
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Boom. I screencapped this post.
 
kame-sennin said:
Should have been the first post.
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Why should it be the first post when it's often not true? People's motives are highly variable. Not everyone is a selfish asshole who thinks they're owed sex. Hell, I'd say it's the opposite. Guys and girls who put themselves in these situations obsess over one person, put them on a pedestal and stay in this mindset of trying to convince the person they should be together because they're looking for a longterm relationship with someone they think is a good person, not sex with an easy lay.
 
AntraxSuicide said:
No, no, no. If you're friends after stating your intentions and getting rejected, but you're both okay with being friends, that's just called being friends.

If you've been rejected but you're still friends as a way to stick around trying to find your "in" then you're an ass who's now in a self-imposed friend zone.
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Is that really being an ass though? What if that patience pays off?
 
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