RyougaSaotome
Member
Check your PMs! Also digging the new avatar!
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Level-5 and imageepoch should reconsider about "saving" JRPGs
- Thread starter ULTROS!
- Start date
Check your PMs! Also digging the new avatar!
encephalon
Member
I'm going to go on record and suggest that Xenosaga II is a great game.
''Waah, waah, its good and well regarded so I must hate it''
Calling the most recent Paper Mario not an RPG for changing up the exp/level dynamic is kinda weird.
Or the truth is somewhere closer to the middle: It's a great, but not "GENRE DEFINING!" RPG.
Great game, but not an RPG. It was an adventure game with a turn-based battle system.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
anyone that's into RPG's knows Atlus/Falcom are the best devs while Nintendo's been awesome with Mario/Mother/Pokemon/Xenoblade(Monolith)
So an RPG.
HolyBaikal
Banned
Well, I guess it is considered just about all of the above.
It has been around for a long time. The claim that it is the more successful RPG franchise of all time is probably true. Even Dragon Quest can't really eclipse it, even if it was the original and still heavily beloved. And it is still popular. Both new and old Pokemon is very successful and hasn't gone down a path of waning like some other Japanese RPG franchises.
The point was to point out the fact that "old jRPGs" weren't more realistic or 'less anime' than they are today. That anime jRPGs are still just as successful as 'realistic' ones. And that "old jRPG fans" shouldn't be disappointed by anime in a jRPG. Considering, if they're "old jRPG fans", that's what they should have grown up on.
Well I don't think Level 5 ever said they would save jrpgs. Where did you get that from them?
Imageepoch hasn't made a single good game (well maybe the first 7th Dragon but most of the world will never know about that), their goal of "saving" jrpg is absolutely laughable.
And it's on a region free console. It's also very mediocre and nothing of value was lost by not localizing it.
Imageepoch hasn't made a single good game (well maybe the first 7th Dragon but most of the world will never know about that), their goal of "saving" jrpg is absolutely laughable.
And it's on a region free console. It's also very mediocre and nothing of value was lost by not localizing it.
ULTROS!
People seem to like me because I am polite and I am rarely late. I like to eat ice cream and I really enjoy a nice pair of slacks.
I'd like to know your say as well. I only read one review saying it's dull, repetitive, and one of the worst games this generation.
encephalon
Member
Sol Trigger was supposedly written by Final Fantasy's Nojima, was it not? How was that?
Right now, Falcom is my JRPG developer of choice. As long as they don't get caught up with fanservice and creepy pandering, I think they'll remain that way.
Right now, Falcom is my JRPG developer of choice. As long as they don't get caught up with fanservice and creepy pandering, I think they'll remain that way.
cj_iwakura
Member
anime today sucks. any rpg based on anime today sucks too.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
I guess I could say that if I liked my games to have tons of half baked systems in it.
Yeah, I agree. I really love Inazuma Eleven. It's probably my favorite series to come out of Level 5. The story is charming and funny and the gameplay is really fun. You can also develop your characters like you want past certain points in the story.
djplaeskool
Member
imageepoch seem to be at their best when they aren't setting lofty goals.
Both 7th Dragon games and Last Ranker are fantastic games.
^
Dark Schala
Eloquent Princess
That Tokitowa review truly makes the game sounds like it was dreamed up first and foremost as a game that caters to every trope in the book. What the heck at the narrative synopsis! This sounds dumb! Some of the character descriptions make me want to vocalize "it's like one of my Japanese animes!"
And the screenshots throughout the article do very little to refute that perspective because yikes at a few of them.
The battle system sounds easy to pick up but I can see how it becomes relatively boring in the long run. That's unfortunate. I was somewhat hoping that it'd be the game's saving grace, but apparently not. Sounds like cooldown time and animation time are hindrances.
Even the Koshiro music isn't very good?! How is that even po... how... wat.
From the saviour of JRPGs:
And the screenshots throughout the article do very little to refute that perspective because yikes at a few of them.
The battle system sounds easy to pick up but I can see how it becomes relatively boring in the long run. That's unfortunate. I was somewhat hoping that it'd be the game's saving grace, but apparently not. Sounds like cooldown time and animation time are hindrances.
Even the Koshiro music isn't very good?! How is that even po... how... wat.
From the saviour of JRPGs:
ULTROS!
People seem to like me because I am polite and I am rarely late. I like to eat ice cream and I really enjoy a nice pair of slacks.
Oh and when I was talking about anime in games, I was talking about the moe/cutesy culture in games. I'm alright with anime but the moe/cutesy ones turn me off (save for the exception of Corpse Party because at least the game was different, fresh, and intriguing).
This.
Maybe this speak volumes about my tastes or I'm just not too critical on games but I haven't had many major issues with many, if not most of the JRPGs localized this gen on handhelds or consoles aside from the Souls games. I thought Imageepoch's Fate/EXTRA was absolutely awesome and the time I spent with Level 5's Jeanne D'Arc was pretty wicked.
EDIT: That Towitowa review actually makes me want to play it now. Can't be that bad.
encephalon
Member
Oh god, that flying animation ...
chertipros
Member
They help put with development on other internally made games, like Monolith Soft did for Skyward Sword and Animal Crossing and like what Brownie Brown did last year with 3D Land
Dark Schala
Eloquent Princess
Apparently the battle themes were good but everything else was not.
Huh, I should get onto listening to that soundtrack then.
I do happen to agree with this, I don't find that appealing and I'd like echo that when that is combined with a side of pandering or fanservice, I find it that much more displeasing.
I never really understood the appeal of making the characters overly 'cute' or things like the over use of blush marks or just blush marks in-general, and the lack of detail in art to have more 'innocent' appearance I really don't quite understand myself.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
We can consider Toki To Towa a FMV game? Because I really want a Giant Bomb QL if it comes States side.
encephalon
Member
Convincing argument.
Oh hell yeah, that sounds pretty slick.
Level 5 is such a conundrum for me. Their RPGs are basically without exception technical marvels, they're heavily stylized and nearly every one has a unique look and a very stylized art direction, they're willing to play with new ideas, and most of their games feel 'full' and 'complete', like they didn't have to cut corners during development or make do with a budget that falls short of their ambition.
But fuck me if each and every RPG they've made doesn't feel boring, shallow, and soulless when you actually play it. It's almost respectable how they could take a concept like Rogue Galaxy, actually make the game with that scope and scale, at that level of technical complexity, and then have it turn out to be so boring that I can't even say I properly dislike it.
I think the dream matchup would be to have Level 5 handling the style and the scope of the game, but to have tri-Ace's designers in charge of the actual mechanical systems. Most tri-Ace games utterly fail at the things that Level 5 always gets right, and yet even Infinite Undiscovery managed to have better core combat gameplay than any Level 5 RPG I can think of, let alone tri-Ace's good (or even "good") games.
(I have no opinion on imageepoch)
But fuck me if each and every RPG they've made doesn't feel boring, shallow, and soulless when you actually play it. It's almost respectable how they could take a concept like Rogue Galaxy, actually make the game with that scope and scale, at that level of technical complexity, and then have it turn out to be so boring that I can't even say I properly dislike it.
I think the dream matchup would be to have Level 5 handling the style and the scope of the game, but to have tri-Ace's designers in charge of the actual mechanical systems. Most tri-Ace games utterly fail at the things that Level 5 always gets right, and yet even Infinite Undiscovery managed to have better core combat gameplay than any Level 5 RPG I can think of, let alone tri-Ace's good (or even "good") games.
(I have no opinion on imageepoch)
Dark Schala
Eloquent Princess
Endurance Run with Brad the Anime Editor.
Oh, there are two battle themes, and one for each character?
Toki: http://youtu.be/BD472rOY1y8
Towa: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32jsMqZSULU
Listening to the rest of the OST, oh yeah... I definitely hear where Ryouga was coming from with respect to the compositional style. It's kinda weird. How was that even possible? Some of the stuff is okay, but it's not outstanding. It fits right into a slice of life anime sometimes. Edit: Wow, some of this is surprisingly generic.
HolyBaikal
Banned
That's like saying, if one didn't like most of the cartoons coming out of the United States today, that games done in a cartoony style would therefor suck.
And I hear a lot of a certain vocal group of the anime fandom that anime has gone bad. Usually, however, I find from those who grew up during the "Toonami Era" and with action anime that was very Hollywood-esque. With a kind of nostalgia goggle that remembers growing up with first impressions of anime being shows like Cowboy Bebop and Trigun which were a very specific and short-lived niche of anime.
There's also many high quality anime being produced out of Japan in my opinion such as Madoka Magica and Nichijou. The change in anime production is that today, anime has grown better at comedy than action. If I look back at the reality in comparison to the claims that anime has gotten horrible, I see little evidence. Instead, I look at every year of anime and seen that every year has had a few good, a few bad, and several mediocre anime.
Most, or rather pretty much all of the franchises out of Atlus and Falcom are pretty much "anime". And they are among the highest quality jRPG developers today. Whatever the state of the anime industry, it does not reflect whether games done in the anime style are "good" or not.
On another note, if anything is negatively affecting the quality of the anime industry today, it is funds. Piracy doesn't necessarily equal lost sales. But with anime becoming difficult to buy and most anime fans only watching anime through torrents or streams and never buying, the anime industry is in need of money.
However, these same people who torrent anime but never buy, still buy anime goods. Particularly anime style video games. Video games are a surviving piece for the anime culture itself which is in rocky times. Considering "anime" video games, are one of the best shots the manga industry has to still make money in the West today, nothing good will come of anime if 'anime games' don't sell. Certainly anime won't get better if people refuse to buy games because they're "anime".
Which looking at the history of jRPGs and the sales of games like Pokemon today, I don't think is the case at all.
Commanche Raisin Toast
Member
Although I don't agree with the notion that L5's gameplay designs aren't good, I do think they tend to fuck with shit and change things up for no god damn reason. They seem to think that each new RPG that isn't going to be turn based HAS to have some new battle system they came up with. I think Rogue Galaxy had a great battle system. Why not use it in White Knight? Dark Cloud 2 had a pretty quirky and fun semi-hack-n-slash system that I became addicted to.
I consider those successes and don't understand why they wouldn't want to improve upon those successes.
I consider those successes and don't understand why they wouldn't want to improve upon those successes.
ULTROS!
People seem to like me because I am polite and I am rarely late. I like to eat ice cream and I really enjoy a nice pair of slacks.
Regarding tri-Ace, I'd say their games have been fun and interesting, especially the battle systems. Not to mention they're also a technical marvel (their games are second on par with Square Enix level of technical marvel). The only thing that falls flat are their current stories and cutscene directions (who can ever forget the infamy of Star Ocean 4 and the Dinner Dance of Infinite Undiscovery). Although their earlier games had good stories (Valkyrie Profile).
If I were to mash-up companies, I'd say Level-5's art direction and technical-marvel together with tri-Ace's gameplay and story (the one who did VP's story) will produce outstanding results.
Doctor Decimate
Member
JRPG stories have always been kind of shitty.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
djplaeskool
Member
LunaticHigh
Member
Is Xenoblade really that good? Maybe I should play it again. I found it to be just about as entertaining as FF13 when I played it. Dull uninteresting introduction with clunky game play and forgettable characters.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
I thought Ni no Kuni was good....
Shame is wasted in that game. One of the best battle themes I heard in some time...better than Xenoblade one (yeah I went there).
Shame is wasted in that game. One of the best battle themes I heard in some time...better than Xenoblade one (yeah I went there).
Doctor Decimate
Member
Yep.
djplaeskool said:
i'm aware of that. but it seems to me that some of the criticism of modern JRPGs in this thread revolves around their story and i really don't see how that's limited to modern JRPGs.
Parakeetman
No one wants a throne you've been sitting on!
Level 5 > Imageepoch
By far Imageepoch is one of the WORST companies here in Japan.
Do hope that they eventually go under and I seriously mean that, since they need to lose their hold on some licenses.
By far Imageepoch is one of the WORST companies here in Japan.
Do hope that they eventually go under and I seriously mean that, since they need to lose their hold on some licenses.
I can see how people would get fed up with the Xenoblade talk, but I'm also part of the crowd that thinks it's the best jRPG of this gen.
And it's not really like it's a fluke. I mean Monolith started really slow, and games like the first Baten Kaitos and Xenosaga II just weren't that good, if not downright terrible. But their after those, their "big" games got pretty awesome any way you look at them (Baten Kaitos II, Xenosaga III, Xenoblade). If their next attempts come anywhere near those games (X and the unannounced 3DS title), they'll reaffirm their position as true inheritors of the genre IMO.
And it's not really like it's a fluke. I mean Monolith started really slow, and games like the first Baten Kaitos and Xenosaga II just weren't that good, if not downright terrible. But their after those, their "big" games got pretty awesome any way you look at them (Baten Kaitos II, Xenosaga III, Xenoblade). If their next attempts come anywhere near those games (X and the unannounced 3DS title), they'll reaffirm their position as true inheritors of the genre IMO.
Don't mind him, he's just a bitter old man.
Night_Trekker
Member
I've never really understood the hate people feel for Rogue Galaxy. I fucking love it.
But yeah... overall, I don't think Level-5's games have very good writing. Look at Dark Cloud 2, which is an awesome game filled with so much to do, you'll never finish it. Great, great game. AWFUL story, and the characters range from tolerable to obnoxious and unlikeable.
Get the fuck out of here. Baten Kaitos, aside from having awful voice acting, is an amazingly good game.
But yeah... overall, I don't think Level-5's games have very good writing. Look at Dark Cloud 2, which is an awesome game filled with so much to do, you'll never finish it. Great, great game. AWFUL story, and the characters range from tolerable to obnoxious and unlikeable.
Get the fuck out of here. Baten Kaitos, aside from having awful voice acting, is an amazingly good game.
DarkoMaledictus
Tier Whore
I tend to disagree completely!! Ni no Kuni had an amazing story and stellar gameplay! Love the voice acting as well!! Guess they can't make everyone happy...
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Let's say, independently of your opinion about the quality of past games in that area, that here was an actual attempt before the tell an actual story or a character driven arc than just check in some uninspired tropes and some shallow anime archetypes (that they are neither new in anime neither in JRPGs but they incremented prominence and shallowness in their use has taken a tool).
Disclaimer: Note that this come from a guy that likes Ar Tonelico games...
Dark Octave
Banned
All that takes is to hire a (or multiple) writer and level designer.
No point in stunting growth of a company for the lack of those two things.
toddhunter
Member
Hence why people like me hate Rogue Galaxy. You start the game and see a great setting, awesome graphics (for the time) and some seemingly interesting mechanics to go with it.
"Off we go!" you think, eager to see all the interesting things that will happen. They you start the area, grind through battles to the end doing the same thing over and over and think "ok, not much fun, but I'm sure there will be some cool story bits to top it off". Except there isn't and you never get the depth in battle either.
So you go to the next area, which again looks interesting. Again nothing happens. You rinse and repeat until you eventually give up or you go all the way to the end and hate yourself a bit for wasting so much of your life on a game where nothing interesting *ever* happens.
That is Rogue Galaxy and I suspect Ni no kuni from what I've read. Compare to other JRPGs like a good final fantasy or Persona. At some stage late in the game you can look back and marvel at all the crazy stuff the party has been through. It feels epic and so it should. You might hate certain characters, but you can't dispute that they go through a lot of shit to get to the end.
If your JRPG doesn't have that it better have the best battle mechanics of all time, and none of the level 5 games are even close.
I can't really call it a great game from any angle...except that it helped set up Xenosaga 3 which was really quite good.
RyougaSaotome
Member
http://www.japanator.com/import-review-tokitowa-27727.phtml
For the record, Koshiro's work in Tokitowa isn't awful or anything. It's just largely generic and feels lazy compared to the stuff he normally does.
The battle themes are cool and jazzy as hell though. Imageepoch bit off way more than they could chew, and the Japanese reaction is a testament to that. Hell, Ryoei Mikage pretty much disappeared off the internet for the first few weeks after the game's release. Talk about confidence in your product. Hah.