We've already had one too many fanfics about Kagari in this forum. Let's seriously not do this again.
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Lightning Returns adds SNS boss battle score upload
- Thread starter Perfo
- Start date
We've already had one too many fanfics about Kagari in this forum. Let's seriously not do this again.
So basically Perfo is Lightning, and Kagari is Caius.
Dark Schala
Eloquent Princess
I hadn't been paying too close attention, but I didn't know that. Huh.
Hm. I usually like adhering to Ultima/DQ/Wizardry/DnD/etc mechanics when it comes to RPGs, so number-crunching is the sort of thing I usually really like. That's what I come to RPGs for, and if I don't have a lot of numbers and stats to crunch, my interest tends to wane. If there's not a sense of progression in terms of gathering battle experience, it'll be interesting to see how they try to give the player a sense of "progression" with respect to getting new armours. Regardless, I'm rather wary of the concept.
It almost makes me question what they're trying to aspire to with respect to the game's design here. I wonder if it's going to have that sort of "sense of identity" issue that FF13-2 had to me. It looks like they're trying to create a mix of an action game with an ARPG with an open world experience to cater to audiences that seemed to have moved to other types of RPGs to satiate their playstyles/newfound playstyles this generation, or even to cater to a brand new audience.
I'd said this before somewhere, but I'd started to feel that Squaresoft's RPGs were the leaders in innovation in the past whenever they put their first Final Fantasy game on a system from the PS1-onwards. PS1 had it with a more cinematic approach/using prerendered environments/using better models especially with FF8, etc in FF7, and PS2 had it with making even more of a cinematic experience with making voice acting a mainstay with better environmental approaches in terms of scenery. Scene blocking and better cinematic direction for story elements was another thing that felt solidified for the generation on that console because of FFX to me. Of course, this is purely anecdotal, as there were games prior to those games being released on those respective consoles that did the same thing, but I felt like FF refined and popularized the concept so far as to have other developers try to follow suit.
Right now, it feels like they're trying to catch up and are trying almost every ingredient they can think of in order to chase after many different audiences, but it's a tactic/game design blueprint that seems rather hit-or-miss. Even when I played FF13 in late 2009, it felt like it was trying to capture an audience which wasn't incredibly familiar with the genre, and while that's alright, the breakneck pacing and reliance on cinematic fixtures seemed to have made for a rather divisive game in the end.
The problem with this approach is that the end-product tends to lack any sort of cohesion, with a follow-up question from a player thinking about game design: "Why are they doing this and in terms of game design, what is the reason for this approach in the game?" That's what I kept asking myself in Final Fantasy XIII-2, despite many people believing it to be the better game (though I suspect that having more diversity in terms of playable options would have been what people were looking for, regardless of the fact that it didn't feel cohesive, nor did it seem to have its own sense of identity in terms of design).
I'll be interested to see whether or not this game's design and approach, and what it includes, will be cohesive or not, but I can't help but to feel like it's taking a similar approach as FF13-2 did in that it's trying to take many different options that we've seen in RPGs of this era and past, and is trying to craft a game that will attempt to cater to several different audiences yet again but is going to miss some semblance of cohesion and originality/sense of individuality in the sea of RPGs that have come out on not just the consoles, but also the handhelds (which, regrettably, tend to be forgotten when discussing RPGs in general).
In short, I'm skeptical. It'll just be interesting to read impressions out of Japan for that region's release as to whether or not all of the ingredients will mix into a cohesive product, or if it'll feel like some things are suited to the game while others are not.
You're forcing me to write a long post, aren't you. =D
Wow, that was one of the few things I was actually looking forward to.
There better be no crappy crystarium.
As far as they've said, there isn't. Stats will depend on costume/shield/weapon equipped.
Dark Schala
Eloquent Princess
Go ahead. It's been a long time since I've posted something proper in an FF thread on gaming side anyway.
I'll have my thoughts and opinions about XIII saga in general tomorrow. =D It'll be long yo.
Chance Hale
Member
Dark Schala
Eloquent Princess
It's best that you missed them, Yoshichan.
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
B-b-b-but I wanted to see them
... I'm gonna have to delete my browse history now ._.
B-b-b-but I wanted to see them
... I'm gonna have to delete my browse history now ._.
Yoshichan pls.
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
Do you actually have a source for this? Lightning also gains stats for completing quests (Japan Expo trailer), so the above is false. And I'm not sure they ever said this would be the only way to level up.
I can imagine some system where you can spend RP to level up stats of your choice, similar to Dark Souls (since the two games have so much in common already).
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Great post.
Especially this line in question. One of the many reasons I get belligerent and bullheaded on the subjects regarding Square Enix is because in truth I care about them. I want them to do well. I want them to succeed. But they just keep giving me the wrong message.
And the way I see it. They seem to lean in the direction of minimal Console and Handheld output. And want to go all out on transitioning to mobile markets. And you can be the Optimist all you want but that's the way I see things going. I've said it before if you look at their financial career plans of them wanting to increase mobile output. Console output will remain the same(and boy was it abysmal), yet the mobile output will slowly but surely exponentially increase. And it may increase so much that it will make that Console output appear to "decrease".
Handheld Square is amazing. But they really need talent that is well versed in Console game development. Else I fear for Square and it doesn't look good.
And I keep going back to what Tetsuya Takahashi said in his Xenoblade Interview and for me it really drives the nail I see a lot.
"Since Japan is a relatively small market, its development system-just as it is with movies-isn't set up for developing the sort of mega-budget projects that are common in the West. It's often said that a fun game is born not from money, but from good ideas, and certainly that is often the case. However, when you're dealing with the RPG genre, which revolves around constructing entire worlds, there are lots of times when having good ideas just isn't enough. I don't believe that this is some all-encompassing truth from which there is no possibility to escape, but I do consider it to be a valid excuse.
Now, personally, I can't help but think that the reason the industry is in this sorry state is because everyone has just accepted that excuse and, sapped their spirit to challenge new things, has just decided to kick back and coast on their past successes.
I like to think of this as the "Mito Komonification" of the industry. Mito Komon is a Japanese TV drama set in the Edo period of Japanese history, which boasted of running for over 40 consecutive years [1,227 episodes! -ed], but which just recently aired its final episode. In my opinion, it was cancelled because after 40 years of telling similar stories over and over again, the audience got sick of it, and it never managed to adapt to the changing times.
My point is that if most JRPGs-regardless of the size of their budgets-have abandoned any attempt at progress and retreated to the safety of past successes, then isn't that the real reason the world is moving on without them? "
-------------------
I want to be wrong but I feel that SE is a shell of what it once was. It's soul and spirit has moved elsewhere. And I fear recovering is going to be the company's very own Final Fantasy. Meanwhile loyal fans will cling on to their Brink of Delusion and maintain their Ultimate Illusion. It's really sad to look at.
They never showed the end of the quest in the Japan Expo demo. What has been reported is that completing quests nets something called Eradia(?) Points, which are used to extend the time limit.
Customization screen shows no signs of levels at all:
Demo shows changes in attack/magic/speed(?) stats when equipment is changed.
Weapons also lack levels. There may be a form of smithing system so that you can tinker with weapons and add additional abilities/skills to them, but if there is, it hasn't been shown thus far.
They never showed the end of the quest in the Japan Expo demo. What has been reported is that completing quests nets something called Eradia(?) Points, which are used to extend the time limit.
Customization screen shows no signs of levels at all:
Demo shows changes in attack/magic/speed(?) stats when equipment is changed.
Weapons also lack levels. There may be a form of smithing system so that you can tinker with weapons and add additional abilities/skills to them, but if there is, it hasn't been shown thus far.
I can't examine the video right now, but I certainly recall that at the end of the quest Lightning got some bonus magic stat.
An I wouldn't expect the leveling to be on the customization screen anyway. That screen is more akin to the Paradigm screen of previous games.
And remember that this game is still several months out. They haven't officially announced the non-sword-and-shield weapons, though we know they're there from the menus. It's too early to say there's no leveling based off lack of evidence, and we have evidence against the idea that the only stat boosts come from equipment.
I went back and checked the video. Maximum HP increase and Magic increase, but definitely not a points system where you get to level up stats of your choice.
Paradigms customization in 13 and 13-2 tells you levels:
Customization menu in LR looks to be a merger of accessory equipment with paradigm tinkering, since it's all for one character anyway. There are no levels, just base stat increases determined by the designers, more in the vein of Zelda.
What actually piques my interest from researching it before is that there is no defense stat, just an icon of a guy with speed lines, so I'm guessing it is either speed or evasion. Edit: Japan Expo demo says speedlines guy is ATB Restoration.
Here's the only thing I can find with levels:
I remember there's some kind of purchasing regarding abilities? So that's probably how you get them and then you buy a level up? Ask Kagari when she wakes up.
The inclusion of bonus stats with quests doesn't remove the possibility of some flavor of more classical leveling.
I had actually forgotten about the levels next to abilities; I remember being intrigued by those when I saw them! I'd be interested if anyone has more concrete details on them.
Aren't they a sign that the game does have leveling, contrary to what this thread has been saying? I'd be fine if the leveling shared currency with other purchases as well, similar to Dark Souls. Then you can further specialize whether your character is growing through stats, abilities, or equipment.
Haha yeah. I mean sure I picked up FFXIII day 1 ish on hype, but this game is actually being ambitious, very ambitious, and I'm genuinely intrigued to try it out.
It'll definitely be more conservative.
They've stated there won't be any collector's editions either.
I saw XIII-2 for ten bucks yesterday and I almost bought it. I actually kind of enjoyed XIII but there are so many better games out there and so little time to play them all I'm starting to question whether this franchise is worth the time investiment.
CrimsonCrescendo
Banned
Admittedly, those two points were more personal gripes than anything else.
You should've bought it. XIII-2 is different enough to be better for some people and worst for others. Give it a shot.
What you're calling classical leveling I'm assuming means, "Lightning will have X amount of experience to reach Level 34" type of deal, and that simply doesn't exist in this game as far as anything can be seen.
If you would like to call the Zelda style of adding health 'leveling', sure. But those are pretty arbitrary and outside the player control, chiefly in that the quest simply increase max HP and magic rather than providing you the means to determine what you want increased instead. Considering that in the demo, some of the equipment gave significant boosts to stats (HP is 3k something, the shield alone added 1000 to max HP), it's clear they're herding players towards 'customizing equipment' rather than leveling.
Is it better or worse than traditional leveling? Who knows. I think it's highly dependent on execution.
Classical leveling probably wasn't the best term; my bad. By classical leveling I was just referring to points translating into power innate to my character, not just equipment. I'd consider the ability leveling to be just that. Similar to the other XIIIs, your character has several "sub-levels" that make up their overall strength.
I think there could still be a way you directly spend points on stats as well, so you can make super-aggro-physical-Lightning or something. I'm not sure I want that personally, though. We'll see!
Bloat doesn't make a game good by itself. You can have a limited number of abilities and actions and be the best game ever, or you can have a shitload of abilities and be the worst game ever.
CrimsonCrescendo
Banned
XIII had 6 balanced characters and it game me access to everything I wanted. XIII-2 had 2 unbalanced characters but made up with the for the sheer amount of variation with the monsters. LR gives us a single character with access to an extremely small pool of abilities at any given time. It's all the exact same spells and most the same moves (save for dodging, blocking, and limited mobility), we just have less access. Final Fantasy VII wouldn't suddenly become better if I had access to only one party member, one limit break, and a few spells at a time. Dues Ex Human Revolution wouldn't suddenly become better with 20 augmentation instead of the ~70 in the game and the removal of several gun upgrades. DmC Devil May Cry certainly didn't benefit from the removal of numerous mechanics and cutting the total moveset by about 70 moves from Devil May Cry 4. In fact, in all those cases, the games would become worse (in DmC's case, general opinion is that the combat system is worse). It could work, but in my experience, limiting a players choice in battle almost never works out. Like I said, we'll see.
I am starting to wonder myself now....
I still admire LR for at least shaking up the JRPG and FF formula for something different. But like Crimson said, Toriyama has made a lot of promises for this game and if it does not pan out, there will be (and should be) legit criticism.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
what?
You're oversimplifying. XIII's combat wasn't enhanced by bloating the SYN and SAB menus, and I'm of the opinion that XIII-2 benefited greatly by moving half of those abilities to Feral Links. Fully buffing and debuffing in XIII was a chore, whereas in XIII-2 it could be quickly accomplished with careful management of Feral Links and a little help from Serah. I doubt many players enjoyed navigating Hope's 14 SYN spells or Fang's 14 SAB abilities, let alone trying to apply everything.
Also, while DmC's individual weapons didn't have as many moves as DMC4's, you had access to five weapons at once, on top of three guns and Dante's normal abilities. The consensus about the combat isn't because you lacked options.
I'll offer up Dark Souls as my counter-example. At any one time in Dark Souls, you don't have more than 15 "moves" available to you. Even that's being generous, and most beginning players who are only using one set of weapons will have far less. The game nevertheless has a huge following and is praised for its gameplay. It doesn't succeed by having many moves, but by how those moves are used.
I'm crossing my fingers for Lightning Returns to do the same. When they first announced the combat system, I had a hard time being excited. I imagined mashing Ruin or whatever and hitting block when appropriate. Woohoo.
Then they showed the outfit swapping in action (they had mentioned it before, but I misunderstood how it worked). I loved the feel of Paradigm Shifting constantly to keep a constant barrage of attacks going, and this game seems to reward doing the same. Carefully managing your ATB in each stance will let you unleash a constant stream of attacks while burning off excess ATB with heavier moves (similar to how Ruinga and Blitz could be used to burn excess ATB in XIII/XIII-2).
My anticipation rose during the Japan Expo trailer, where they showed different weapons, more tactical skills (like Poison), and the Evade skill. I'm still waiting for them to show them, but I'm hoping the different weapons/defensive moves will really feel different. Different weapons giving different gameplay experiences would be wonderful.
And my excitement for the battle system reached a peak when they announced parrying. On top of everything else, the inclusion of high risk/high reward situational parries seems to cement that they're going for a battle system that rewards knowledge and practice.
The point is a wide array of moves don't necessarily lead to fun gameplay. They don't even necessarily lead to deep gameplay. You can't ignore mechanics and how those moves are used. Some of this is speculative, I'm aware. I'm not making any guarantees about how the game will be, but I'm getting a lot of positive vibes from how they describe the gameplay.
Also, I'd be interested if you elaborated on XIII/XIII-2's character balance. I think we have quite different views, but I'm interested to hear yours!
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
Seriously? Not a single "special" version, not even for EU?
Sheesh I was already pretty excited about this game but being able to color her clothes as well, fuck I love customization. I love changing a character's clothes, something about it is ridiculously fun to me. I always enjoy when armor and stuff can be changed and it's represented on the model.
