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Ltt...ugh. Final Fantasy XIII.
- Thread starter Brandon F
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Fimbulvetr
Member
Jrmint said:
You just used a strawman and a reverse ad populum.
You no longer have the right to tell people they are bad at arguing.
Edit: Oh shit you managed to slip in appeal to novelty. That's just precious.
I thought FFXIII was good. It has a fantastic battle system and a good story to keep you interested. Really, that's enough to keep me going.
FFXIII gets dissed a lot, and while I understand the points made against it, I don't agree with them. FFX is one of my favorite games of all time and FFXIII is pretty much its sequel in spirit. The lack of exploration and an overabundance of corridors were a huge part of FFX's gameplay as well so I don't see any reason why it should bother me in FFXIII. As for the pacing issues that people often mentioned, I was satisfied coming up with combinations even when I had two characters and the story kept me invested. I couldn't stop playing it.
I think that equals a good game for me.
FFXIII gets dissed a lot, and while I understand the points made against it, I don't agree with them. FFX is one of my favorite games of all time and FFXIII is pretty much its sequel in spirit. The lack of exploration and an overabundance of corridors were a huge part of FFX's gameplay as well so I don't see any reason why it should bother me in FFXIII. As for the pacing issues that people often mentioned, I was satisfied coming up with combinations even when I had two characters and the story kept me invested. I couldn't stop playing it.
I think that equals a good game for me.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I will never understand people who were impressed with Pulse. It was like a tiny subsection of a XII area, with little graphical variation. It was actually itself a big corridor, not much of a "hub" in reality.Jrmint said:
And the sidequests consisted of killing randomly located monsters in a list. In XII I felt like I was hunting monsters in a vast world.. Pulse was too small for that.
It was the Calm Lands, 2.0, which was another shit area in the history of gaming.
The buzz around the game that "once you get through the 40 hrs of linearity, it opens up" was a big lie.
In your opnion.Kalnos said:
And thanks for misinterpreting my quote.
The line about the original argument has nothing to do with FF12. I respect that people like that game, it just wasn't for me. I played the first 10-15 hours of that game (up to King Ranperre's Tomb) 3 times and just could not get into it. But this thread is not about FF12 so I will not derail.
Rahxephon91
Banned
Oh you again. I'm still waiting for an argument about how easy it would be able to make a FFVII remake. Until that happens....Ahoi-Brause said:
Fimbulvetr
Member
Jrmint said:
TLDR for you:
"You padded your arguments with fallacies. Please stop."
BocoDragon said:
This I will agree with. The area isn't really that well designed or at least to me, it certainly isn't open in any real way and you can't do nothing but kill the same stuff over and over again outside of hunts.
I just don't get anyone would like Pulse, and this is coming from a guy who loves XIII.
What was a fallacy?
The primary complaints of that game were that it was a trip down a corridor. My point is just about every Final Fantasy game in the past 10 years has been that as well. If I remember correctly when you blew up the first reactor in 7 there was not much choice of path to go, yet people loved the game.
The primary complaints of that game were that it was a trip down a corridor. My point is just about every Final Fantasy game in the past 10 years has been that as well. If I remember correctly when you blew up the first reactor in 7 there was not much choice of path to go, yet people loved the game.
I didn't like the game but thought it did some things well. It had plenty of unlikable characters however. I didn't mind Lightning but the Hope and Snow subplot took way too long to come to a conclusion. I never finished the game, I got to the part where you can do those optional missions and sorta gave up after doing a bunch. Maybe I'll get back to it someday.
The gameplay was okay. I say it was okay because when it actually let you play I felt like it offered me freedom. Not being able to choose what moves to actually do felt weird in a FF game to be honest. This was not the weakest part of the game however.
As many other people have said the first ten to twenty hours are some of the worst gameplay segments I've played in a JRPG in quite some time.
Music was okay to good in most parts. I grew to like the battle theme.
Characters were okay (Lightning, Sazh) to annoying (Hope, Snow) to let me mute my receiver (Vanille). I know some people liked the above characters but I think people can see why other people do not.
The amount of hyperbole being thrown around on both sides whenever this game is brought up is pretty silly. Is the game great? No. FFIX was the height of Final Fantasy to me and that hasn't changed in the ten years since it came out. This is not a poor game by any means. It's an okay to good game. Even though I liked FFXIII more than FFXII I'd say FFXII trumps it with its whole package.
I think people are so negative towards it because it's the worst in the series since probably FFVIII and that's even up in the air IMO. People have talked about its complete linearity and mentioned that previous games do that. And they do. But they don't quite do it the same way. It's not corridor after corridor after corridor with some plot advancement. Previous games are broken up much better. If there's one thing I'd fix with FFXIII it's the pacing. It's the poorest part of the game.
Another thing SE seems to want to do is throw things in because this is FF. Why are there Aeons/Guardians/Eidolons in every game? And why is FFXIII's implementation of such so completely bogus? I know they liked Dissidia but really that doesn't mean such action sequences make sense in this game's structure.
As far as fun I'll say that I had more fun with Crisis Core. A game that was one of the most repetitive games I've played ever. But its mechanics were better, its plot as nonsensical and its characters much much better. I've been day one in every FF since FFVIII and I'm not sure I'll be there for FFXIII-2/Versus/FFXV.
In FFVII you got to explore Midgar in the first few hours of the game. You weren't going from area to area in a straight line without any variation whatsoever with only plot advancements in between. It is completely different. There were things to do. FFXIII does not have things to do until you reach the optional area I was talking about before.
The gameplay was okay. I say it was okay because when it actually let you play I felt like it offered me freedom. Not being able to choose what moves to actually do felt weird in a FF game to be honest. This was not the weakest part of the game however.
As many other people have said the first ten to twenty hours are some of the worst gameplay segments I've played in a JRPG in quite some time.
Music was okay to good in most parts. I grew to like the battle theme.
Characters were okay (Lightning, Sazh) to annoying (Hope, Snow) to let me mute my receiver (Vanille). I know some people liked the above characters but I think people can see why other people do not.
The amount of hyperbole being thrown around on both sides whenever this game is brought up is pretty silly. Is the game great? No. FFIX was the height of Final Fantasy to me and that hasn't changed in the ten years since it came out. This is not a poor game by any means. It's an okay to good game. Even though I liked FFXIII more than FFXII I'd say FFXII trumps it with its whole package.
I think people are so negative towards it because it's the worst in the series since probably FFVIII and that's even up in the air IMO. People have talked about its complete linearity and mentioned that previous games do that. And they do. But they don't quite do it the same way. It's not corridor after corridor after corridor with some plot advancement. Previous games are broken up much better. If there's one thing I'd fix with FFXIII it's the pacing. It's the poorest part of the game.
Another thing SE seems to want to do is throw things in because this is FF. Why are there Aeons/Guardians/Eidolons in every game? And why is FFXIII's implementation of such so completely bogus? I know they liked Dissidia but really that doesn't mean such action sequences make sense in this game's structure.
As far as fun I'll say that I had more fun with Crisis Core. A game that was one of the most repetitive games I've played ever. But its mechanics were better, its plot as nonsensical and its characters much much better. I've been day one in every FF since FFVIII and I'm not sure I'll be there for FFXIII-2/Versus/FFXV.
Jrmint said:
In FFVII you got to explore Midgar in the first few hours of the game. You weren't going from area to area in a straight line without any variation whatsoever with only plot advancements in between. It is completely different. There were things to do. FFXIII does not have things to do until you reach the optional area I was talking about before.
Jrmint said:
Really? Midgar is the best you can come up with for a corridor in FF7? That city alone has plenty of secret areas and dialog off the hidden path. The first time I played through I didn't even realize I could enter the Honeybee Inn.
Not to mention it's a linear introduction to the game with a crafted experience of non-linearity that Square had perfected so well.
Fimbulvetr
Member
Jrmint said:
The needless additions of "lol bandwagon" and "come up with something original"?
Not to mention your argument assumes that linearity and non-linearity are binary attributes so anything that can be described as some kind of linear is now just as linear as XIII?
Like everything, there are tiers to this and the problem people had with XIII is that it falls completely on one side of the linearity scale until and after Pulse.
I don't really understand what was so different about what you did in FFXII to be honest. It's the same thing just with a different coat of paint. Maybe it's just me, but whether I'm looking at jungle or a desert, I don't sense much of a difference in the locales of both games. I still see it as a hub with a bunch of interconnected corridors, housing all sorts of monsters. FFXII may have had more areas, but they were all flat and boring places just like the Calm Lands. I didn't think it was fun traversing through them.BocoDragon said:
My point is not the specifics, just that JRPGS by their nature are guided experiences. Sure you go do pushups in the gym or do whatever in the HoneyBee Inn, but it was still leading to the confrontation with the guy in the Inn, which led to the guided experience through the sewers.Kalnos said:
It is not a bad thing is my point, it is the nature of the genre. When I play Final Fantasy games I want a guided experience, and I expect it. I know the game will open up for exploration later.
If I want a full exploration, open world RPG, I'll play Oblivion. I just think it's silly how much hatred the game has gotten for having a main quest which just draws from its genre.
Ninjimbo said:
FFXII's world was much more fully realized than FFXIII. There wasn't much life in FFXIII and one didn't get the idea that they were people in its world that would care if everything was destroyed. FFXII had more life in its opening town than the entirety of what I played in XIII.
Anonymous Tipster
Member
dramatis said:
Quoting this because it can't be said enough. People rag on FFXII as "playing itself", but that's because you, the player, set it to do that. You have the option to automate or control as much or as little as you want during the battle (or do both at the same time, even).
There's nothing wrong with liking FFXIII's battle system (I personally was not a fan), but to say it's more "involved" than FFXII's I think is outright incorrect.
BocoDragon said:
It's a lot like FFXII (and I liked the mark hunting in FFXII until it stopped holding my attention), but FFXIII's battle system is more dynamic, so that's sort of an improvement.
Beyond that, it might just be a Stockholm Syndrome sort of thing. After all that confinement, finally getting the chance to explore felt really liberating. And some of the places off the beaten path (the Archaeopoli) were great to discover. The main Steppe is bland as hell, but the places near it looked very good.
It definitely doesn't compare to FFXII, though, in openness or overall scope.
Jrmint said:
That isn't the Honeybee Inn, which I'm sure you missed, but yeah. My point is that the older games are indeed linear but have enough content off the beaten path throughout the entire game to give them a non-linear feeling. Whether it's the mini-games, secret characters, weapons, hunts, whatever.
Ahoi-Brause
Banned
Yeah, you and squaresoft are the only people still convinced that pulling off a FFVII remake would be some kind of superhuman, magical task.Rahxephon91 said:
The only reason square can't pull it off is because they're poorly managed and take forever for everything they do.
To Far Away Times
Member
FFXIII was not only one of the most dissapointing games this generation, but I believe it has erased whatever was left of Square's good image from the 90's.
Fimbulvetr
Member
Ahoi-Brause said:
In HD?
Hell yes it wouldn't be easy.
Not unless it was just a port.
Magicpaint
Member
FFXIII's gorgeous visuals, music and amazing battle system saved the game for me. Also while the game is wordy and the story sucks, on replays that doesn't matter since you can skip; it starts to flow so well when you play it like that. It's still ultimately a disappointing game, but I still like it.
TacticalFox88
Banned
I thought it was its greatest weaknesses. All they needed to do was port over XII's GODLY battle system. That's it. The fact that you couldn't control your character made me rage so fucking hard._dementia said:
Magicpaint
Member
Control how? In terms of movement?TacticalFox88 said:
TacticalFox88
Banned
Yes. Like FFXIIMagicpaint said:
APZonerunner
Member
The game just lacked an overall vision from the word go. Sometimes that can have great results - this is not one of those times.
Magicpaint
Member
Right. I get what you mean, but I like how you manage your strategies in battle more than XII. I really like XII's battle system though, but I had more fun with XIII's.TacticalFox88 said:
H_Prestige
Banned
a176 said:
*puke*
Jesus, wtf is this shit?
Rahxephon91
Banned
I never said it was some superhuman task, I said it was hard. Which it is. Hard for any studio to make a game like FFVII with the standards today. The quote meant if they made FFVII the same way they did back then with the standards of today it would be pretty hard. It would be. Art assets take time to make and are expensive. FFVII has a lot of unique areas that would require tons of unique art assets if the game was made the same way, plus they would need be even more detailed and thats just one aspect. You argued that someone like Rockstar with Red Dead proves they would be better and its nothing something that would take "2 years". Ignoring the fact that that game took a years to make, had tons of development issues, was probably more expensive then FFXIII, and also reuses assets to the max. Could they take a different approach to making it, sure but that's not what the quote was about. Oh but you talked about how that game was supper detailed and tons of little touches with animation and character movements in the such. Yes that's true ,but thats the standard now. So on top of trying to make a more detailed say Midgar that would also have to be bigger then before it would also have to have those little touches as well. That's not easy, but since you want to bash Square you can't see that.Ahoi-Brause said:
Ahoi-Brause
Banned
No good game is easy.Fimbulvetr said:
But if feelplus were able to pull off Lost Odyssey with their 70 staff member square can do a FFVII remake with their 3000+ staff members.
They got more money and more manpower. They are just terribly managed. And there is NOTHING in FFVII that would be impossible in HD.
Most of the locations are pretty small, most towns consist of 3 rooms and 5 npc.
There is basically nothing about that game a talented crew under good management couldn't pull off in 2 years - making FFVII was probably harder than making a HD version would be.
You brought that Rockstar comparison up in the first place and I had proven you wrong shortly before you abandoned the thread and I lost interest.Rahxephon91 said:
Stop changing stories.
Magicpaint
Member
I didn't see Snow in there.TheBranca18 said:
Magicpaint said:
Huh? You can modify gambits during battle by going into the menu or you can simpky issue orders manually. You can also swap party members in and out of your team on the fly as long as they are not targeted. You have complete control all the time in 12. I don't see how having a limited deck of job is a better management.
Magicpaint
Member
I like it better because it flows better. Sometimes tinkering with gambits while in battle felt tedious IMO.Vamphuntr said:
FFX got away with being linear because it actually has an interesting story and strong characters. it's battle system was also among the best for turn based systems.
FFXIII on the other hand, tried to tell a story which has no redeeming quality whatsoever ever. it also tries to tell it with a most annoying cast of characters. its gameplay mechanics were also not strong enough to make up for the deficiencies. I hate the game. absolutely hated it.
FFXIII on the other hand, tried to tell a story which has no redeeming quality whatsoever ever. it also tries to tell it with a most annoying cast of characters. its gameplay mechanics were also not strong enough to make up for the deficiencies. I hate the game. absolutely hated it.
For me it comes down to the fact I had to switch quite often in XIII.Vamphuntr said:
In FF XII outside of putting on the Windbreaker or whatever it was before the Cyclone in the Yiazmat battle I didn't do a single thing during the battles in late game XII for either story line bosses or optional.
2 minutes of Setup and then I watched as Vaan, Balthier and Basch kicked the shit out of the final bosses and Omega Mr XII alike.
Don't get me wrong I loved XII's battle system, but it wasn't as fullfilling as XIII's to me.
As much as I hated FFXIII when I got to the Gran Pulse overworld I was like "Finally! I've arrived!" Really that area had so much promise and loved running around it and defeating enemies and stuff. It all just felt so alive. Such a shame then that shortly there after they continued with the whole "go down corridor x until you get cutscene y then proceed to corridor z" gameplay.
Rahxephon91
Banned
Ok maybe I did ,but you did'nt prove anything. You were wrong then and you are wrong now. You ignored the argument(like you are now) and were just like "oh you're wesaling around" except I wasn't as I argued your almost non existent points. I left the thread because there was nothing left to say as you couldn't come up with anything other then "why are you attacking Red Dead.Ahoi-Brause said:
Ahoi-Brause
Banned
You were fucking weasling arround, if you like to revisit how you got you e-served just google that thread and re-read it, because I'm not going to type out all that shit again so you can bail another time.Rahxephon91 said:
Square is fucking incompetent and they even admitted it.
Projectjustice
Banned
Jrmint said:
LO is 10x the FF game than FFXIII is.
I swear, a FFXIII thread on GAF is like the fucking Batsignal for Rahxephon.
But the best thing I can say about FFXIII is that I genuinely enjoyed dicking around Gran Pulse. Large, explorable areas, enemies that I couldn't just auto-pilot and steam-roll through like the main story (which actually validated the battle system for me), and I didn't have to be force-fed the drek that Toriyama considers a plot and story. I liked Gran Pulse enough to go through the absolutely inane turtle grinding so I could fight even more super-powered enemies.
Too bad the game tried to drag me from Gran Pulse essentially kicking and screaming before the post-game.
But the best thing I can say about FFXIII is that I genuinely enjoyed dicking around Gran Pulse. Large, explorable areas, enemies that I couldn't just auto-pilot and steam-roll through like the main story (which actually validated the battle system for me), and I didn't have to be force-fed the drek that Toriyama considers a plot and story. I liked Gran Pulse enough to go through the absolutely inane turtle grinding so I could fight even more super-powered enemies.
Too bad the game tried to drag me from Gran Pulse essentially kicking and screaming before the post-game.
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