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LTTP: Max Payne series (I don't like 3)
- Thread starter DoktorEvil
- Start date
TheSinkingKnight
Member
3 would be so much better, as others have said time in and time out, if we could skip the cutscenes.
ichtyander
Member
I don't really have a problem with the overall plot, I've enjoyed films with way worse stories but its execution is sorely lacking. One of the main problems are the psychotic, seizure inducing visuals (which were faithfully copied to MP3) that, I feel put a much larger emphasis on the music video visual style than actual substance. We get long exposures of Denzel walking slowly, looking sadly into the distance all the while the image flickers and cuts into other angles and this happens during the whole fucking movie. The dialogues feel spread out and suffocated by this editing style so the characters never really get fleshed out nor did I ever end up caring about them, because Denzel porn. Hell, I've seen 3 minute music videos that deliver a more cohesive and well defined plot than this movie.
I've enjoyed shallow action movies and I've enjoyed movies with heavy emphasis on the visuals or artistic direction but this one has none of that. It's just a pretentious pile of bullshit with editing that manages to be even worse than Michael Bay's Transformers.
DoktorEvil
Banned
I think I was being harsh on the game, considering that Rodrigo Branco level is pretty damn fun to play through, but after 1 and 2 and seeing the movie(It was meh it but Wahlberg was definitely miscast), 3 was not what I wanted when I thought of a third Max Payne game. If you gave me a different US city (say Baltimore and cleaning up what's left of Valkyr) and him playing as a vigilante, I'd be so much more happier.
Having mentioned the movie, I cant get over how much the trailer promised and the movie under delivered =/
The best thing to come out of the trailer was that Marilyn Manson instrumental song. Goddamn! Don't you feel badass when that's playing while walking in the snow?!
The movie could have used more dialogue for Denzel's character, plus a fleshed out backstory. I agree with those criticisms.
We never really understood Creasey's motivations except he liked the boss' daughter and got along well with her. Maybe if we knew something like he had a daughter before he came to Mexico, his arc would make much more sense.
Having mentioned the movie, I cant get over how much the trailer promised and the movie under delivered =/
The best thing to come out of the trailer was that Marilyn Manson instrumental song. Goddamn! Don't you feel badass when that's playing while walking in the snow?!
The movie could have used more dialogue for Denzel's character, plus a fleshed out backstory. I agree with those criticisms.
We never really understood Creasey's motivations except he liked the boss' daughter and got along well with her. Maybe if we knew something like he had a daughter before he came to Mexico, his arc would make much more sense.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
The (level spoiler)
Precinct
It also has a couple of nifty little references to the old games, as well as some of the best lines in 3:"Time moves forward, nothing changes."
"I'm at my best when I'm at my worst."
Both of which sum up Max's character pretty nicely, I think.
Now that you say that, I think that's exactly why people didn't take to it.
DoktorEvil
Banned
The (level spoiler)is one of my favorite levels in the entire series. Max looks the nuts in his A Better Tomorrow get-upPrecinct
"Time moves forward, nothing changes."
"I'm at my best when I'm at my worst."
Both of which sum up Max's character pretty nicely, I think.
Now that you say that, I think that's exactly why people didn't take to it.
I should see that movie. I still haven't sat down and watched more of John Woo's Hong Kong days.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
They're very much style over substance (kind of like Max Payne in many respects) and there is a lot of painful dialogue/acting, but the action still holds up, IMO.
The ending of A Better Tomorrow Part 2 is basically an MP3 Deathmatch in a tiny house. XD
"I wouldn't know right from wrong if one was helping the poor and the other was banging my sister."
"The smell in this place reminded me of how long it had been since I'd had any food. A drinker eats when he's loaded. A real drunk eats when he's not."
"So I guess I'd become what they wanted me to be, a killer. Some rent-a-clown with a gun who puts holes in other bad guys. Well that's what they had paid for, so in the end that's what they got. Say what you want about Americans but we understand capitalism. You buy yourself a product and you get what you pay for, and these chumps had paid for some angry gringo without the sensibilities to know right from wrong."
"I had a hole in my second favor drinking arm, and the only way we were likely to get Fabiana back now was in installments."
"Need a hand?"
"No, do you?"
Arguably Housers best writing.
"So I guess I'd become what they wanted me to be, a killer. Some rent-a-clown with a gun who puts holes in other bad guys. Well that's what they had paid for, so in the end that's what they got. Say what you want about Americans but we understand capitalism. You buy yourself a product and you get what you pay for, and these chumps had paid for some angry gringo without the sensibilities to know right from wrong."
"I had a hole in my second favor drinking arm, and the only way we were likely to get Fabiana back now was in installments."
"Need a hand?"
"No, do you?"
Arguably Housers best writing.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Ending dialogue spoiler:
Fuck yeah!
Victor: You know I'll walk.
Max: Yeah, you'll walk... WITH A LIMP! *CRACK*
Max: Yeah, you'll walk... WITH A LIMP! *CRACK*
Fuck yeah!
NealMcCauley
Member
First time I played 3 back in 2012 I wasn't very impressed. I bought it through the R* ps store sale a month ago and fell in love with it. It's a difficult game to master but once you do it is immensely satisfying like 1 and 2. Free aim all the way.
The AV Club had a story about the game yesterday. Most of the user comments boiled down to "I died all the time, this isn't Max Payne at all!"
The AV Club had a story about the game yesterday. Most of the user comments boiled down to "I died all the time, this isn't Max Payne at all!"
DoktorEvil
Banned
I don't mind bad dialogue. Hell, Face/Off is up there for me as a top 3 action flick next to Die Hard.
Definitely picking up the DVDs of the collective works of John Woo someplace when I can. I have my copy of Hard Boiled but The Killer and A Better Tomorrow I missed.
"He was trying to buy more sand for his hour glass. I wasn't selling any."
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
My man! I love a bit of Face/Off.
A Better Tomorrow is generally accepted to be better than Part 2... but I love Chow Yun Fat's opening dialogue and the climax to it more.
Lies and more damned lies, I can't believe this to be true! Heretics!!! You shall repent or forever be in PAYNE!!
DoktorEvil
Banned
WHO DOESN'T LOVE FACE/OFF!?
Hammy movie with doves and Nic Cage and Travolta?! That's the formula for great action! Freddie Wu(Rocketjump) has some John Woo in him and I can't wait until he gets his own action movie to demonstrate it.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Freddie who?
But, seriously, I do not know this Freddie Wu.
Sorry, Your Holiness.
I've been a fan since the first one and really enjoyed MP3 (barring the Panama plot-hole and only being able to skip cut-scenes halfway through). I really didn't want to either, but it is so playable and turns both Max and the previous games tone on their head in a really interesting way.
DoktorEvil
Banned
Freddie who?
But, seriously, I do not know this Freddie Wu.
*Freddie Wong
Dammit, I need to remember names better. His stuff is down below. Lots of short clips and such.
http://www.youtube.com/show/freddiew
Also, I forgot to monologue.
"They were all dead. The final gunshot was an exclamation mark to everything that had led to this point. I released my finger from the trigger. And then it was all over. The storm seemed to lose its frenzy. The ragged clouds gave way to the stars above."
"I don't know about angels, but it's fear that gives men wings."
"One thing you can count on: You push a man too far, and sooner or later he'll start pushing back."
"In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king."
"The truth was like a green crack through my brain. Weapon statistics floating in the air, glimpsed out of the corner of my eye. the repetitious act of shooting, time slowing down to show off my moves. The paranoid feeling of someone controlling my every step. I was in a computer game. Funny as Hell, it was the most horrible thing I could think of."
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
I'll check it out when I get back from work
EDIT:
The best line in any Max Payne game is in MP2:
"I was compelled to give Vlad his gun back... one bullet at a time."
Amazing.
DoktorEvil
Banned
"After Y2K, the end of the world had become a cliché. But who was I to talk, a brooding underdog avenger alone against an empire of evil, out to right a grave injustice? Everything was subjective. There were only personal apocalypses. Nothing is a cliché when it's happening to you."
The Real Napsta
Member
I like all 3 MP games. All of them are amazing.
b&jy77VjiKn$#F
Member
Chill out lol. Take some painkillers, that will help.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Whilst Woos films have a lot of style I wouldn't say it was the whole thing about his films. His films are very much about loyalty, honor amongst thieves and friendship. Plus when you have awesome actors like Chow Yun Fat and Tony Chiu Wai Leung they aren't even bad acting wise
Hell Woos best film, Bullet In The Head, isn't really like any of his other classic 80s films at all. It's more drama/thriller than action though I'm disappointed he was forced to change his original ending to that film.
Max Payne 2 is every bit as good as Half Life 2 and just as revolutionary in its blend of game and story. One of my all time favorites.
Max Payne 1 was fun, but more promise than execution.
Max Payne 3 is just a different type of game. It may as well be its own distinct IP. Really excellent game, though. Like a playable Michael Mann movie.
Max Payne 1 was fun, but more promise than execution.
Max Payne 3 is just a different type of game. It may as well be its own distinct IP. Really excellent game, though. Like a playable Michael Mann movie.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Whilst Woos films have a lot of style I wouldn't say it was the whole thing about his films. His films are very much about loyalty, honor amongst thieves and friendship. Plus when you have awesome actors like Chow Yun Fat and Tony Chiu Wai Leung they aren't even bad acting wise
Hell Woos best film, Bullet In The Head, isn't really like any of his other classic 80s films at all. It's more drama/thriller than action though I'm disappointed he was forced to change his original ending to that film.
Yeah, that was a bit unfair, but I've personally never thought that the themes were particularly deep, so I wouldn't necessarily say they had a lot of substance.
Relationships between characters in Woo movies are usually in opposition to what is expected of their roles in a particular institution (friendly criminal, piece of shit cop, cop and criminals are close friends). While that may have been an interesting juxtaposition at the time of release, by the time I'd seem his early stuff (late 90s) it was very much a cliche (a case of Seinfeld is Unfunny), so that coloured my perception somewhat. On top of that, it's a theme and a plot device that he flogged for quite sometime between movies.
You're right about Chow Yun Fat and Tony Leung, they are both great actors (Leung in particular), but everyone around them in, for example, Hardboiled are pretty hammy (as is a lot of the dialogue). Where these films really shine is in their balletic display of violence and, in that sense, I would say they hold style over substance. I mean, come on, A Better Tomorrow Part 2 has Mark's (I think it was him) equally skilled twin brother to get over the fact that
Chow Yun Fat died in the first one
"YOU NO LIKE MY WICE?!"
DoktorEvil
Banned
Hard Boiled is certainly hammy, but that's ok since the action set pieces more than make up for mediocre acting/dialogue.
Plus, it introduced me to the tequila slammer and Chow Yun Fat playing jazz music.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
CHOW YUN FAT HAS EMOTION BECAUSE CLARINET
I absolutely love John Woo movies, man. Their cheesiness is part of the appeal.
RSB
Banned
Agreed.
When it comes to the gameplay mechanics, it is up there with RE6 and Vanquish. Hell, I know I would have replayed it at least 7 or 8 times, but the cutscenes killed it for me. What a shame...
Oh I don't disagree with you at all, they are hammy but I think that's why we love them all and the actors sell that wonderfully
I just wouldn't say completely style over substance, that's all.However I wouldn't say the same for Bullet In The Head, been a while since I've watched it admittedly but that's very much a serious drama and actually moved Woo up in my estimations. Not very cheesy that one at all. Highly recommended if you've never seen it.
Robert J. Sullivan
Member
Gonna drop this here :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8IEiwBLSxw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8IEiwBLSxw
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Oh I don't disagree with you at all, they are hammy but I think that's why we love them all and the actors sell that wonderfully
However I wouldn't say the same for Bullet In The Head, been a while since I've watched it admittedly but that's very much a serious drama and actually moved Woo up in my estimations. Not very cheesy that one at all. Highly recommended if you've never seen it.
I haven't actually, but I will make an effort to, sir.
I think the gameplay, when you're actually left to just run around and shoot at dudes, was absolutely fine. What got me was:
- Every time I went near double doors he'd slow down and I knew a fucking cutscene was coming.
- The cutscenes had a tendency to be long and unskippable.
- Too many of them.
- Sequences where you literally just pushed forward while he heavily staggered around.
- The stupid flashy graphic gimmick.
- That includes the odd word or phrase popping up during dialog like OMG 2DEEP4U DIALOG.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
What does that even mean? The highlighted text was more often than not a hint about what was really going on plot wise, rather than highlighting their phisophical significance.
If you could've stomached the cutscenes through a second play through, that becomes really apparent.
DoktorEvil
Banned
That didn't bother me because in any recent dialogue heavy games I know better to turn on subtitles. There were definitely way too many dialogue segments and not enough gunplay segments.
Good man! I'll be genuinely interested in your thoughts if you ever get round to watching it. Hell I need to watch it again myself, been too long.
Max Payne 2 is my favourite third person shooter ever and one of my absolute favourite games but I can't stand MP3..
Awful game..
I mostly hate it for what they did to the gameplay actually. All the different gameplay additions in MP3 just felt off and unpolished..
Bullet time 2.0 im MP2 had more depth to it than whatever rockstar did with BT in MP3.. big step back there. Also, last man standing is a fucking awul addition.. just worthless.,
And to combine it with the fact that the first 2 games didn't control ridiculously sluggish, had far more interesting level lay-outs and didn't stop you with tedious cut scenes every 5 steps just makes them MP3 easily the worst game in the series.
And then there's the story..
Awful game..
I mostly hate it for what they did to the gameplay actually. All the different gameplay additions in MP3 just felt off and unpolished..
Bullet time 2.0 im MP2 had more depth to it than whatever rockstar did with BT in MP3.. big step back there. Also, last man standing is a fucking awul addition.. just worthless.,
And to combine it with the fact that the first 2 games didn't control ridiculously sluggish, had far more interesting level lay-outs and didn't stop you with tedious cut scenes every 5 steps just makes them MP3 easily the worst game in the series.
And then there's the story..
DoktorEvil
Banned
Max's sluggish controls make sense in the context of his story.
He's getting older, things are harder for him to do at his age. Having a older character with fine tuned and smooth controls is out of place.Its like having Old Snake do the same things that Young Snake did would be ridiculously out of place(Although he went through a freaking microwave hallway).
The first 2 games also weren't developed by Rockstar, so there's that.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
The bolded is so true. MP2's Bullet Time mechanic has never been bettered and they really missed a treat there.
Can't say I agree with the rest though...
DoktorEvil
Banned
Remind me again about MP2, where did the devs innovate in the bullet time mechanics?
Spring-Loaded
Member
Screaming Meat likes the pirouette that Max does while "reloading," even though it doesn't make any sense
It's like remedy heard people refer to John Woo movies as "bullet ballet" and they took it literally in some kind of language gap-related error, bless them
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
I can't think of a single thing I liked about Max Payne 3, aside from some cool looking environments. Never played the originals.
When you say this, it's already unspoken that it's not that great.
Comparing MP2 to MP3 is like comparing Godfather 2 to Godfather 3. Bloated trilogy cappers, that try to remind you why you liked the first two.
Spring-Loaded
Member
The movie comparison further illustrates that a lot of people place a disproportionate amount of importance on story in video games. The gameplay is so often an afterthought in threads about this series, which is pretty crazy.
DoktorEvil
Banned
Oh... That's what he meant...
You're missing out, friend. MP1 and 2 are classics for very good reasons.
Man on Fire lacked a good backstory for us, the audience, to understand why Creasey comes to Mexico, and why he's so hell bent on saving this girl. The actions and gruesome tactics he use and his motivations don't line up. Also, the editing and shaky cam turns a lot of people off. I personally like big, dumb action movies that lean gritty/film noir/neo noir and use that specific kind of editing. My favorite book series ever is Raymond Chandler's books on Phillip Marlowe, so noir is something I've fallen hard on.
I don't think MP3 is as bad as Godfather 3. Let's be fair now.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Consecutive headshots would refill part of your meter and make time gradually get slower and slower. It rewarded players for staying in bullet time and chaining headshots, which the first game didn't really do. On a really good run, you could headshot combo a room full of mooks (or a full wave in Dead Man Walking) and then, when you exited bullet time, they'd all drop to the floor simultaneously.
Bad.
Ass.
In MP, if you ran out of bullet time you had to kill a few guys normally to refill your bar, which on later levels was a payne in the arse.
Aha.
In MP3, because you could get your meter filled by being shot at behind cover as well as killing mooks, the mechanics prompted using bullet time as you moved between them. It's a vast improvement over MP1 as you could get an awesome rhythm going (especially in cover heavy areas like Branco's office and The Precinct), but it isn't as outright balls out fun as MP2, especially when you got to the harder difficulties in MP3 where your meter was drained ridiculously fast.
YOU REMEMBERED! XD
It doesn't need to make sense because it's awesome both aesthetically and gameplay wise. It let's the player have a moment to scope the battlefield mid fire fight, dodge bullets and set up your next shot, all without ruining the rhythm!
Did you complain when Chow Yun Fat never reloaded in Hardboiled or The Killer...?
Did the Godfather Part 3 have superior shooting and feedback mechanics?
You and me both. Love Phillip Marlowe, a badass without a gun (most of the time).