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[Alienous]

I think the point is that shooting shouldn't be a core gameplay element. It doesn't fit the rest of the game, in any way, and also has the sad demerit of not being very good in the first place.

Then you might as well Hotline Miami every shooter, because no shooter is going to be able to justify the amount of killing.

The story and the killing Drake does don't combat each other. The gameplay doesn't serve the narrative, but it doesn't oppose it either. Equally, any other core gameplay mechanic would fundamentally change the Uncharted series.

So either shooters shouldn't attempt to have a story, or no story based games should include shooting?

 

[dab0ne]

I would love this game if it wasn't a chore to play. The aiming and moving is just so damn clunky. GTAIV controls better.

 

[DC1]

The perks seem pretty good: travel the world, see ancient cities, surrounded by like-minded people, unlimited supply of ammo to shoot people you don't like. It seems like a pretty swell job, until their employers run into Drake.

Yep.

Drake and his crew are like Scoobie Doo & Gang....

Make no doubt that I'm a fan. I'm compelled to plat all uncharted games (Drakes fortune was my first).

I typically remove myself from these discussions because I enjoy the series so much.

 

[DC1]

all these people playing this video game that is a third person shooter and killing a lot of people and getting mad about it are confusing the hell out of me

garnett lee makes these arguments all the time on his shows and most of the time i feel like its his only way of shitting on a great game without being able to find a flaw in the game itself

killing a lot of people isn't a flaw when that is basically the games core design

if you don't like it you don't have to play it

You are correct!

 

[Zoc]

Yup, this was a problem with the Uncharted series, as well as the Bioshock series and the latest Tomb Raider. I really hope Naughty Dog puts their A team on Uncharted 4 and incorporates all their innovations from TLOU, as well as continuing on the path of innovation that TLOU set. I also think they could learn a few things from Tomb Raider 2013's crafting and optional tombs. Batman Arkham Asylums's map structure and progression system would also be very well suited to Uncharted, I think. Golden Abyss seemed to go a little in that direction, but veered off.

Nate is a treasure hunter, how about letting me hunt some treasure in his games, NG? Give me clues, give me traps, give me seemingly-impossible-to-reach ledges, and give me neat gadgets.

 

[Rezbit]

I have no problem with games being games, even ones where you shoot hundreds of people. The thing that annoyed me about Uncharted (and other games that do this, seemingly increasing) is when the villains preach at you about "How many have you killed, Drake?" Well actually asshole I've just killed about two thousand. People can't expect others not to complain about the amount of people you kill, when the game itself asks you to wonder how many you've killed.

 

[TalesOfWin]

I enjoy Uncharted 2 and 3, but the series is waaay over rated.

Seriously. Naughy dogs arent that good. Their games are pretty but gameplay isnt their cup of tea.

 

[Alienous]

Yup, this was a problem with the Uncharted series, as well as the Bioshock series and the latest Tomb Raider. I really hope Naughty Dog puts their A team on Uncharted 4 and incorporates all their innovations from TLOU, as well as continuing on the path of innovation that TLOU set. I also honestly think they could learn a few things from Tomb Raider 2013, too.

Nate is a treasure hunter, how about letting me hunt some treasure in his games, NG? Give me clues, give me traps, give me seemingly-impossible-to-reach ledges, and give me neat gadgets.

Now yes, I agree. Put me on an island. Give me hints, Let me find the treasure, and deal with any other individual treasure hunters, as I choose.

 

[PaulloDEC]

The whole narrative dissonance thing is still totally weird to me. I swear I'd never heard that term until a few months ago, and I feel like the amount of criticism of it in games spiked up around the same time.

My position on it in games like Uncharted is the same today as it's been for my entire gaming life; I deliberately tune out the number of enemies killed because I know that the designers intend me to. Uncharted wants to tell a cinematic story while still being a shooter, and a high body count is the price it pays for that.

Video games are chock full of stuff like that. Why is the guy in Bioshock eating so much chocolate out of the bin? Why are there so many conveniently colour-coded chests in God of War? In order to enjoy the world and the story, we're expected to ignore the gamey stuff.

 

[Snowden's Secret]

Then you might as well Hotline Miami every shooter, because no shooter is going to be able to justify the amount of killing.

The story and the killing Drake does don't combat each other. The gameplay doesn't serve the narrative, but it doesn't oppose it either. Equally, any other core gameplay mechanic would fundamentally change the Uncharted series.

So either shooters shouldn't attempt to have a story, or no story based games should include shooting?

I don't play a lot of shooters, but running over a mental list of the ones I played this gen, the main playable characters were:

Soldier (Halo)
Soldier (Call of Duty)
Soldier (Battlefield)
Regular guy (Uncharted)

You'll note that the first three feature soldiers, people that have authority to kill hostiles. The last is a regular guy, who went out on his own and sought trouble, and repeatedly seeks trouble, and kills as many people as the soldiers in the other games, and not as an instrument of his government, but as a self interested individual seeking personal wealth.

 

[Shai-Tan]

the problem mainly is literalistic interpretation of genre fiction. if you're going to be literal about imagining henchman getting shot then how about the fact that one dude is winning in a shoot out against impossible odds while shrugging off bullets vs bad dudes who have no self preservation and dont seem to mind getting shot until they're "dead", all in a world in a pulp genre in which magical powers exist that could be used to take over the world. seems kind of silly to label a main character a mass murderer in a unverse that is so devoid of contact with reality. you think maybe that death doesn't mean the same thing? some people are apparently incapable of making that connection

 

[90TilInfinity]

3 is not the same as 2 because, with some exceptions, the encounter design in 3 is worse than 2. Too many encounters with rocket launching enemies flanked by multiple snipers or respawning waves that seemingly fall from the sky. Also broken stealth. 2 doesn't really have this problem. I still think the game was tremendously fun (and I love the shipyard encounter) but its clearly not as good as 2 even if the set pieces in the back half of the game are truly ridiculous.

I enjoyed the game, but to me it screamed "we can't get anymore power out of this system, so let's go with the same formula and tweak some things". A potentially sideways step turned a step backwards because not all of the tweaks worked out well.

As for dissonance, I think enemies in the pulp genre are inherently seen as less than human. Their deaths are almost for comedic value. Was anyone asking (Raiders of the Lost Ark spoilers)

Spoiler

whether sword-wielding Arabian

had any kids? Enemy death animations in Uncharted are greatly exaggerated for a reason.

In a pulp action adventure game like this, death-toll is an issue that can only be tackled by variation inbetween battles, which I'm hopeful Uncharted 4 will have more of.

Now, I agree with the

Spoiler

Drake trying to save Marlowe

point. There is a line of seriousness that shouldn't be crossed in pulp action adventures, and I think Uncharted 3 got a little too close (if not crossed it) on a few occasions.

 

[The Lamp]

Of course you have to kill the enemies. They are either guarding your objective or trying to kill you. Why is that beyond what some people will accept? The reason Nathan didn't feel guilty for killing all these random Lazarevic grunts is because Lazarevic and Flynn betrayed him and tried to get him killed or in prison. In Uncharted 3, the grunts are always trying to kill Nathan on this cat and mouse game of getting the ring back.

Although U3 is terribly written and I don't really try to justify it much.

 

[thefro]

This was my biggest problem with 3, too many bad guys, and all the time from ridiculous locations. It never really felt natural, they would throw a bunch at you, then force you to hide across the room as they would spawn a bunch behind you, then there was throwing a number of the big guys at you that have to be one of the worst bullet sponges in a game. It got to a point where I just wanted the encounters to be over so I could move on with the story instead of being stuck in this same section fighting a bajillion bad guys.

Yeah, that part bothered me a lot more than killing all the bad guys... where the heck are is this private army coming from in this supposedly very remote location?

This is one area where TLOU does fair better since the majority of enemies are zombies. Still too many hunters in some spots but it's not nearly as bad as UC3 where it completely breaks all believability.

 

[slade]

You guys think about this to the point of obsession. Almost like the psychopaths you are criticizing.

 

[Alienous]

I don't play a lot of shooters, but running over a mental list of the ones I played this gen, the main playable characters were:

Soldier (Halo)
Soldier (Call of Duty)
Soldier (Battlefield)
Trained treasure hunter(Uncharted)

You'll note that the first three feature soldiers, people that have authority to kill hostiles. The last is a regular guy, who went out on his own and sought trouble, and repeatedly seeks trouble, and kills as many people as the soldiers in the other games, and not as an instrument of his government, but as a self interested individual seeking personal wealth, and preventing the end of the world..

.

 

[Snowden's Secret]

.

How many people does he kill before that becomes his goal?

 

[revolverjgw]

I don't play a lot of shooters, but running over a mental list of the ones I played this gen, the main playable characters were:

Soldier (Halo)
Soldier (Call of Duty)
Soldier (Battlefield)
Regular guy (Uncharted)

You'll note that the first three feature soldiers, people that have authority to kill hostiles. The last is a regular guy, who went out on his own and sought trouble, and repeatedly seeks trouble, and kills as many people as the soldiers in the other games, and not as an instrument of his government, but as a self interested individual seeking personal wealth.

Drake has never been presented as a regular guy. From the the very first scene in the first game, it is established that he's always packing heat and expecting to be involved in gunfights, and why wouldn't he, he does business with super villains who are out to conquer the earth using supernatural means. Later he fights Nazi zombies and mystical blue giants. And it is further established that he is infamous in this community of supervillains because he's a genius and a thorn in the side of all these supervillains because does this kind of crazy shit all the time.

Lara Croft in the new Tomb Raider IS presented as a regular girl who becomes a killing machine. Now THAT is a problem

 

[alr1ght]

Uncharted has always been a shooter. Some people just can't accept that and try to twist it into something they wish it was. It was never Tomb Raider. Everything was designed around being a 3rd person cover based shooter.

 

[Yagharek]

The critics of this game like to hammer home this point and are utterly convinced that they're correct and that its legion of fans surely must be on their side when it comes to this. Take out the combat and this huge selling, critically acclaimed game will be so much better and more well received. But no. In actuality it IS fun and people enjoy murdering all of these hired goons and that's why the waves of enemies aren't a big deal. Because it's fun to kill them. It's fun to control a guy with Drake's agility, you can hang back and do the stop and pop thing, you can bob and weave around the combat arenas climbing over things, moving and rolling and hitting steelfist combos. It's quite unlike Gears or RE4 or Vanquish or TLOU. When you kill a wave and another appears, that's more opportunity to use Drake's unique skillset and find new ways to use the combat arenas surroundings. On higher difficulties, most of them time I find myself trying something new every time I die. The gameplay is fine and not at all holding back the game. Online the game is tons of fun and quite popular even without puzzle, adventure and platforming elements. That's because the gameplay is strong and different from the other TPS games.

The cognitive dissonance is so dumb I'm feeling too lazy to touch on it right now, but I might later

Don't be a mumpsimus

 

[BadWolf]

Loved Uncharted 1-3 but really hope that for the 4th one there is an option to kill less or go through most of the game in stealth or be able to avoid encounters.

Give me a choice basically, like the Metal Gear Solid series does.

 

[The Lamp]

The critics of this game like to hammer home this point and are utterly convinced that they're correct and that its legion of fans surely must be on their side when it comes to this. Take out the combat and this huge selling, critically acclaimed game will be so much better and more well received. But no. In actuality it IS fun and people enjoy murdering all of these hired goons and that's why the waves of enemies aren't a big deal. Because it's fun to kill them. It's fun to control a guy with Drake's agility, you can hang back and do the stop and pop thing, you can bob and weave around the combat arenas climbing over things, moving and rolling and hitting steelfist combos. It's quite unlike Gears or RE4 or Vanquish or TLOU. When you kill a wave and another appears, that's more opportunity to use Drake's unique skillset and find new ways to use the combat arenas surroundings. On higher difficulties, most of them time I find myself trying something new every time I die. The gameplay is fine and not at all holding back the game. Online the game is tons of fun and quite popular even without puzzle, adventure and platforming elements. That's because the gameplay is strong and different from the other TPS games.

The cognitive dissonance is so dumb I'm feeling too lazy to touch on it right now, but I might later

And this is very true. It's fun to be Nathan Drake and not a lame archaeologist with nothing but puzzle skills.

 

[diamount]

Erm, it's not like he's killing unarmed civilians.

 

[Snowden's Secret]

And this is very true. It's fun to be Nathan Drake and not a lame archaeologist with nothing but puzzle skills.

It's actually pretty dope to be Professor Layton.

 

[TheSpoiler]

Erm, it's like he's killing unarmed civilians.

Right? You seem him pull a gun on a group of crippled orphans trying to get to the free bread market.

As said before, you have a group of people who are out to kill you and shoot on sight. Many of them go "kill him!". The boss of Uncharted 2 is full of shit. He comes with a damn army and complains about Drake killing his men. Boo fucking hoo.

 

[The Lamp]

It's actually pretty dope to be Professor Layton.

Yes but that's hardly the cinematic Indiana Jones anyone including Naughty Dog wants you to be.

 

[RoboPlato]

Oh, goodie.. Here's another thread from a person who disliked the fact that Drake killed hundreds of enemies without showing any remorse.

I lost count how many it is now.

It really is the most tiresome criticism. It completely takes over every Uncharted thread and is just worthless discussion going around in circles. It's a third person shooter, it's going to have a high body count. That's part of the suspension of disbelief you need to have for games.

 

[LastNac]

Yeah, wouldn't consider it a third person shooter at all.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

This has really turned into the most annoying complaint in gaming.

If you were running around killing random other adventurers or civilians fine, but you aren't you are shooting pirates, mercenaries, soldiers and supernatural shit.

 

[Gestault]

The majority of interactions (mindless, heavily scripted shooting sequences) aren't fun, are discordant with the tone of the rest of the game, and some fans simply can't understand why complaining that shooters as a genre aren't fun for them while defending an Uncharted game might be self-defeating.

These are good games, but overrated doesn't begin to describe them. There are much better "games" out there that don't get half the credit it does. The best things about Uncharted have nothing to do with the player's actions and input. Wonderful character interactions and technology, but sub-par gameplay and narrative.

 

[TheSpoiler]

The majority of interactions (mindless, heavily scripted shooting sequences) aren't fun, are discordant with the tone of the rest of the game, and some fans simply can't understand why complaining that shooters as a genre aren't fun for them while defending an Uncharted game might be self-defeating.

These are good games, but overrated doesn't begin to describe them. There are much better "games" out there that don't get half the credit it does. The best things about Uncharted have nothing to do with the player's actions and input. Wonderful character interactions and technology, but sub-par gameplay and narrative.

Some fans, and every human in the universe, realizes that it's all opinions at the end of the day.

 

[chickdigger802]

Yes but that's hardly the cinematic Indiana Jones anyone including Naughty Dog wants you to be.

gentleman is a more preferable kinda person then mass murderer, just sayin'


I don't mind shooting in games, but I fucking hate how guns feel and sound in Uncharted ones. The visible bullet trail and sound effects makes it feel like you are just firing pellet guns.

hope TLOU led to some changes to how guns feel in U4 (if naughty dog is bothering with making that).

And is it just me who found most uncharted puzzles to be awful? They just aren't fun and that god awful one in U3 where I spend 30mins rotating that globe.

woe;fjawiofjwojoafew;j

 

[RooMHM]

No it isn't. It's that many game developers seem to be incapable of finding a way to circumvent that dissonance. Funnily enough, Naughy Dog isn't one of them. They've shown with TLOU that narrative dissonance can be fought against, as the insane violence you see in that game works absolutely perfectly with Joel's character, the setting and the player's interaction with these elements. They crafted the story and the character to fit the amount of violence you see and made sure you experience that violence in the way they want you to.

I really don't see how TloU does that better than the other games. Joel has no feelings apart from the cinematics and story moments? You can justify this by saying he's a lost man, he's lost hope etc. But Ellie ... she kills dozens of guys and doesn't feel much. She doesn't even react to the killing.
I don't think it should be a main point, this "ludonarrative dissonance", games ought to be fun, that's it. But I don't see how TloU is the oasis in this aspect.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

gentleman is a more preferable kinda person then mass murderer, just sayin'


I don't mind shooting in games, but I fucking hate how guns feel and sound in Uncharted ones. The visible bullet trail and sound effects makes it feel like you are just firing pellet guns.

hope TLOU led to some changes to how guns feel in U4 (if naughty dog is bothering with making that).

And is it just me who found most uncharted puzzles to be awful? They just aren't fun and that god awful one in U3 where I spend 30mins rotating that globe.

woe;fjawiofjwojoafew;j

Oh god no, it was awful in the Last of Us on purpose.
Gunplay was fun at no point during that game.

 

[rosaceadude2112]

I think the point is that shooting shouldn't be a core gameplay element. It doesn't fit the rest of the game, in any way, and also has the sad demerit of not being very good in the first place.

that is the game though. that's what you do. wouldn't it make more sense to say the rest of the game doesn't fit it? s'not like you play the parts where draek say funy thing

 

[jett]

Oh god no, it was awful in the Last of Us on purpose.
Gunplay was fun at no point during that game.

What? Gunplay was flat out amazing in TLoU. The guns feel appropriately heavy and powerful as fuck.

 

[Zoc]

It really is the most tiresome criticism. It completely takes over every Uncharted thread and is just worthless discussion going around in circles. It's a third person shooter, it's going to have a high body count. That's part of the suspension of disbelief you need to have for games.

Some people criticize games because they like them, but know they aren't perfect.
I, for one, have played all 4 Uncharted games and enjoyed them all, and would enjoy them even more if the focus moved away from pure gunplay.

What's more, you may find it tiresome to hear these posts, but a lot of developers read these forums. They will notice if a large number of well-reasoned, detailed posts say the same thing about their game, and their thinking on the point may evolve. I'm convinced it's already happening: look at the differences between Uncharted and TLOU if you want evidence.

 

[90TilInfinity]

the problem mainly is literalistic interpretation of genre fiction. if you're going to be literal about imagining henchman getting shot then how about the fact that one dude is winning in a shoot out against impossible odds while shrugging off bullets vs bad dudes who have no self preservation and dont seem to mind getting shot until they're "dead", all in a world in a pulp genre in which magical powers exist that could be used to take over the world. seems kind of silly to label a main character a mass murderer in a unverse that is so devoid of contact with reality. you think maybe that death doesn't mean the same thing? some people are apparently incapable of making that connection

I think it just shows how people buy into the characters more than anything. I get the complaints, but they're looking at specific aspects through a vacuum.

 

[Kinyou]

By the way, does anyone remember the scene from Uncharted 2 where Drake kills a perfectly innocent museum guard?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DyM9LXl_38

 

[dimb]

I actually play the Uncharted series primarily for its combat encounters, so I'm not sure how interested I'd be in a title in the series that removed this aspect. Neither the puzzles or the platforming are really sufficient enough for me to enjoy them on their own, but I like the series best when it melds the three together.

When it came to Uncharted 3 I was rather repulsed just by the design of most of the encounters. It was such a step down from Uncharted 2 that I was rather shocked. U3's encounters tend to feel very restrictive in nature, giving you one outcropping to battle from or narrowing the path as much as seemingly possible.

And the story itself has failure baked in at every turn in an attempt to create tension and drag the story out so it can lead you around to these arbitrarily exotic locations. It is really annoying to be successful inside the game mechanically only to find yourself regularly punished by the events of the story.

But I guess that's what happens when many staffers skip out on a title to go work on something new instead.

 

[Jarmel]

The problem is the raw number. Movies can admittedly get away with fewer kills but games need to find a balance too. TLoU works because Joel is a psychopath and so the bodycount is justified. Uncharted, if there ever is a 4th, either needs to lower the bodycount or get a completely new cast who are ruthless.

 

[Alienous]

What? Gunplay was flat out amazing in TLoU. The guns feel appropriately heavy and powerful as fuck.

They simulate difficulty in aiming by making guns bob & weave while aiming.

Spoiler

When I unlocked the first tier of weapon handling, I would get headshots so frequently the gunplay became trivial

.

I wish they attached that to something like the Dualshock 3's SIXAXIS functionality. That way it would be something you would have to get physically better at (holding the controller steadily) rather than having to 'fix' later on.

By the way, does anyone remember the scene from Uncharted 2 where Drake kills a perfectly innocent museum guard?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DyM9LXl_38

Film rule #26: If there is a body of water below the falling, no matter the distance fallen, there is a good chance of survival.

 

[PaulloDEC]

By the way, does anyone remember the scene from Uncharted 2 where Drake kills a perfectly innocent museum guard?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DyM9LXl_38

Isn't there a shot at some point after that where the guard is seen swimming away? I feel like I've seen this exact conversation before...

 

[RoboPlato]

Some people criticize games because they like them, but know they aren't perfect.
I, for one, have played all 4 Uncharted games and enjoyed them all, and would enjoy them even more if the focus moved away from pure gunplay.

What's more, you may find it tiresome to hear these posts, but a lot of developers read these forums. They will notice if a large number of well-reasoned, detailed posts say the same thing about their game, and their thinking on the point may evolve. I'm convinced it's already happening: look at the differences between Uncharted and TLOU if you want evidence.

It's just gotten to the point where it's impossible to discuss the games without this debate coming up and dominating all the following posts. It completely ruins all discussion.

 

[jett]

By the way, does anyone remember the scene from Uncharted 2 where Drake kills a perfectly innocent museum guard?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DyM9LXl_38

You see him swimming away in the game. Drake kills nobody in the Museum chapter.

 

[revolverjgw]

By the way, does anyone remember the scene from Uncharted 2 where Drake kills a perfectly innocent museum guard?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DyM9LXl_38

NOBODY IS INNOCENT

He swims away and in a pulp universe with crazy supernatural shit it's easy to forgive a guy surviving a fall into water from that height. Even though obviously he'd be dead

 

[Zoc]

I really don't see how TloU does that better than the other games. Joel has no feelings apart from the cinematics and story moments? You can justify this by saying he's a lost man, he's lost hope etc. But Ellie ... she kills dozens of guys and doesn't feel much. She doesn't even react to the killing.
I don't think it should be a main point, this "ludonarrative dissonance", games ought to be fun, that's it. But I don't see how TloU is the oasis in this aspect.

The difference is that in TLOU your character is a survivor, and all your actions, including shooting, revolve around being a survivor, making you feel like a survivor. In Uncharted you play a treasure hunter, but shooting is all you do. You watch a treasure hunter in the cutscenes, but you feel like a mercenary soldier. It's making the games feel more and more outdated.

 

[Zoc]

It's just gotten to the point where it's impossible to discuss the games without this debate coming up and dominating all the following posts. It completely ruins all discussion.

Sorry about that, but the Uncharted series are just so frustratingly close to being exactly what I want from video games, and yet so far. I can't help imagining all the tiny little things they could tweak to make them so much better.

 

[blizzardjesus]

I'd like to see them be challenged and make an uncharted where there is practically no gunplay. I understand there are instances where a gun is useful... but fun combat encounters that are more than just kill rooms/monster closets.

 

[danmaku]

Yes but that's hardly the cinematic Indiana Jones anyone including Naughty Dog wants you to be.

Indiana Jones and the fate of Atlantis puts you in the shoes of a puzzle-solving archaeologist and it was fucking awesome (better than the actual fourth movie). I don't remember anyone complaining that Indy didn't kill enough people in that game. Throw in a few action sequences and you have the perfect Indy game, it's not necessary to turn everything into a 3rd person shooter (though it's certainly the safest way).