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[PeakPointMatrix]

Yes. I would turn him down. Would you go to a wedding at a Scientology church if you we're invited?

Lol, why the hell not? I don't believe in Scientology, but I'd want to support my friend. Being secure means you are okay with yourself enough where you are comfortable and accepting with the lifestyles of others. You're set in your beliefs, so where does the fear of attending a ceremony come in? You're not supporting a religion, you're supporting a friend.

And you would attend a Christmas party? By your very stance on hypocrisy, you shouldn't be anywhere near one for even having the word 'Christ' in the name.

 

[Secret Fawful]

How dare you let religion dictate what you entertain yourself with.

Fuck that shit. I'm having fun.

 

[Marty Chinn]

Just to be clear on that - you would go to a wedding ceremony at a Scientology church?

Yes. Heck, just to even further the point, a long time friend just got married in Hawaii and I spent a couple grand to bring myself and my family just so I could be there on his special day. I'd make the effort because they are my friend.

It is fairly different. No awesome decorations, no awesome TV specials or songs, no element of "magic."

My family maybe got together for a dinner, but not for presents under the Christmas tree.

Friends don't really exchange gifts.

Hanukkah just doesn't have the cultural awesomeness that Christmas has.

I can understand that then. I just know a few of my friends have like a dinner and a gift exchange so it didn't seem too different to me at the core level. I even know some who get a small tree. But ya, I guess when you factor in all the music, all the TV specials, all the decorations, it adds up in comparison.

 

[Gustav]

People and traditions are controlling your holidays. And what are you suggesting to do about it anyway? We all have Christmas and Easter. What's the big deal?

This was a direct reponse to someone who claimed religion dictates my life, because I choose to abstain from churches. I was just pointing out that in fact state sanctioned religious holidays directly influence my life, without me having a choice in the matter.

 

[Log4Girlz]

I remember I actually lost a friend because I said I wouldn't tell my kid Santa was real. I believe the last thing he called me was "monster". I just can't believe how angry people get over this.

Don't you love ideological thinking?

 

[MMaRsu]

This was a direct reponse to someone who claimed religion dictates my life, because I choose to abstain from churches. I was just pointing out that in fact state sanctioned religious holidays directly influence my life, without me having a choice in the matter.

So you are unhappy about having a holiday sanctioned by the state because it stems from religion?

And...this affects you in what way exactly?

 

[Gustav]

Lol, why the hell not? I don't believe in Scientology, but I'd want to support my friend. Being secure means you are okay with yourself enough where you are comfortable and accepting with the lifestyles of others. You're set in your beliefs, so where does the fear of attending a ceremony come in? You're not supporting a religion, you're supporting a friend.

And you would attend a Christmas party? By your very stance on hypocrisy, you shouldn't be anywhere near one for even having the word 'Christ' in the name.

If I understood correctly the Christmas party we were talking about would be one at a company for example. As far as I know these kinds of parties are merely named Christmas party because of their proximity to the holiday. They are not a Christian tradition and not a celebration of baby Jesus' birth.

 

[Marty Chinn]

If I understood correctly the Christmas party we were talking about would be one at a company for example. As far as I know these kinds of parties are merely named Christmas party because of their proximity to the holiday. They are not a Christian tradition and not a celebration of baby Jesus' birth.

Neither is Santa, a Christmas tree, or Christmas for millions of people.

 

[Gustav]

So you are unhappy about having a holiday sanctioned by the state because it stems from religion?

And...this affects you in what way exactly?

It means that for example this year I have to take 3 days off my own vacation that I could have spent otherwise.

 

[Fusebox]

If I understood correctly the Christmas party we were talking about would be one at a company for example. As far as I know these kinds of parties are merely named Christmas party because of their proximity to the holiday. They are not a Christian tradition and not a celebration of baby Jesus' birth.

So... just like Santa and Christmas trees and the toy factory at the North pole?

 

[Log4Girlz]

Let's be honest. Jesus Christ isn't even that strongly associated with Christianity anymore.

 

[Devolution]

This was a direct reponse to someone who claimed religion dictates my life, because I choose to abstain from churches. I was just pointing out that in fact state sanctioned religious holidays directly influence my life, without me having a choice in the matter.

How. A day off? Shit like Christmas is more consumer culture than religious culture.

 

[ZealousD]

They all know there's no Santa, kids just lie to their parents. Don't worry.

What takes longer? Kids to stop believing in Santa, or Parents to stop believing that their kids believe in Santa?

I think I was able to milk that shit for a few extra years!

 

[Amibguous Cad]

I hope to raise my kids to seek the truth regardless of what they would prefer to be true, so no, I don't intend to tell them any comforting lies.

 

[Gustav]

Neither is Santa, a Christmas tree, or Christmas for millions of people.

That's cool for them. May they enjoy their festivities. Doesn't change the fact that Christmas is a Christian tradition, with Santa Claus based on a Saint named Nicolaus, the tree being modeled after the Adam and Eve's tree (the baubles representing the apples), etc.

 

[alphaNoid]

Let's be honest. Jesus Christ isn't even that strongly associated with Christianity anymore.

In the secular domain sure. Every church is very much praising Jesus during the holidays. But I know what you mean

 

[PeakPointMatrix]

So... just like Santa and Christmas trees and the toy factory at the North pole?

Neither is Santa, a Christmas tree, or Christmas for millions of people.

bingo

 

[ZealousD]

I just don't like being hypocritical about my stance on religion. I don't believe in a god or any religion in particular, so I shouldn't cherry pick the things I might like about it and experience/celebrate them.

Japan is one of if not the most secular nation on Earth.

They fucking love Christmas.

That's cool for them. May they enjoy their festivities. Doesn't change the fact that Christmas is a Christian tradition, with Santa Claus based on a Saint named Nicolaus, the tree being modeled after the Adam and Eve's tree (the baubles representing the apples), etc.

LOL Hardly. The Christmas tree is a pagan symbol through-and-through.

 

[IceCold]

That's cool for them. May they enjoy their festivities. Doesn't change the fact that Christmas is a Christian tradition, with Santa Claus based on a Saint named Nicolaus, the tree being modeled after the Adam and Eve's tree (the baubles representing the apples), etc.

That's a retcon. The Christmas tree is of pagan origin. Santa Claus as well.

 

[Devolution]

That's cool for them. May they enjoy their festivities. Doesn't change the fact that Christmas is a Christian tradition, with Santa Claus based on a Saint named Nicolaus, the tree being modeled after the Adam and Eve's tree (the baubles representing the apples), etc.

Do you know what Yuletide is?

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

Santa Claus is real. It's the spirit of giving during the holidays.

Thats about how I feel.

 

[Lonely1]

I tell them this story:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMJYDzhJ_aQ

 

[Gustav]

Do you know what Yuletide is?

Yes. And if I may quote Wikipedia so I don't get attacked for making this up: "a religious festival."

 

[Devolution]

Yes. And if I may quote Wikipedia so I don't get attacked for making this up: "a religious festival."

The tree is from that. Not Adam and Eve's tree. Clearly you don't.

 

[IHaveCandy]

1. I think it's ridiculous that people think letting your kid not believe in Santa Claus will make him a social outcast. That is just absurd. Even if he goes around telling people in his class Santa isn't real, they will find out, maybe cry about it for a bit at first at worst, and then move on. Nobody holds a grudge on a kid for being the one that spoiled Santa Claus for them. At least, it doesn't happen often enough to even worry about it.


2. Why do people think lying about Santa is so necessary for a kid to understand how to be skeptical. There are plenty of more honest ways to do it.


3. The only harm I said could be argued about lying about Santa is teaching kids that teaching kids = getting rewards in such a bargaining way. I'm not saying it's guaranteed to turn your kid into a little asshole once he finds out his good deeds aren't being rewarded by some magical fat man. I'm saying that is how I don't think kids should be taught. I don't think any parent should tell their kid "You should be a good person because then you will get stuff you want." It wouldn't be a part of how I teach my kids. I'd teach my kids that working hard and with integrity will help them earn what they want, but just being on a good behavior isn't entitling you to stuff.

4. Being tradition isn't a really good reason in my eyes. Just because people have done it for generations doesn't mean it should be continued.

5. I've had a wonderful childhood with plenty of imagination, wonder, and excitement. Nothing about it I could really complain about. I've always known Santa was fake. I might have believed it for like one Christmas that I remember, and I found out that year he was fake when I noticed my dad putting out the gifts late at night. It didn't deprive me of any joy or wonder or imagination. Some people here act as if Santa is some integral development stage of human children.

 

[Gustav]

The tree is from that. Not Adam and Eve's tree. Clearly you don't.

Even if it were true, what's the difference? It's a religious symbol.

 

[The Adder]

Gustav, you've made a religion out of your lack of religion. Your adherence to the letter of this belief is downright dogmatic.

Also, I don't understand how, given the nature of our programming, any kid manages to retain their belief in Santa as an actual person beyond the age of 4 or 5. Even if my mom hadn't told me I'm pretty sure all the shows and films that did would have gotten through.

 

[Gustav]

Gustav, you've made a religion out of your lack of religion. Your adherence to the letter of this belief is downright dogmatic.

Dogma is not a religion.

 

[Devolution]

Even if it were true, what's the difference? It's a religious symbol.

Just that if you're going to criticize "religious" symbols as a justification for whatever point you're making, you might want to be correct about their roots.

 

[IHaveCandy]

Funny how you could literally replace santa with god and christmas with religion on your entire argument, does believing god hurt you?

Whats your take on that whole situation? And how is it damaging? Name me one person who was mentally damaged from believing santa.

I think believing in blind faith is damaging, yes. I'd say religious people would be better served to be more skeptical about the existence of God. Nobody can truly say whether or not a higher power exists, and we should all be humble with that lack of knowledge and not pretend we know what cannot know.

 

[Gustav]

Just that if you're going to criticize "religious" symbols as a justification for whatever point you're making, you might want to be correct about their roots.

There are many theories about the tree. It has also been attributed to Martin Luther. They have one thing in common though, the origin of the tree is religious in nature.

 

[Marty Chinn]

I think believing in blind faith is damaging, yes. I'd say religious people would be better served to be more skeptical about the existence of God. Nobody can truly say whether or not a higher power exists, and we should all be humble with that lack of knowledge and not pretend we know what cannot know.

How do you know Santa isn't real?

 

[IHaveCandy]

Taking away Santa and Christmas is a shitty thing to do to a kid.

Yeah, because getting that Xbox you always wanted is so horrible and meaningless when you find out your loving parents worked hard to get it for you.

 

[Log4Girlz]

The tree is from that. Not Adam and Eve's tree. Clearly you don't.

I'm more interested in Eve's bush really.

 

[blame space]

santa claus is kind of a fucked up thing to lie to your kids about

 

[Gustav]

Lol, why the hell not? I don't believe in Scientology, but I'd want to support my friend. Being secure means you are okay with yourself enough where you are comfortable and accepting with the lifestyles of others. You're set in your beliefs, so where does the fear of attending a ceremony come in? You're not supporting a religion, you're supporting a friend.

And you would attend a Christmas party? By your very stance on hypocrisy, you shouldn't be anywhere near one for even having the word 'Christ' in the name.

Because maybe you're not in the business of validating and enabling the church of Scientology by acknowledging them. Could be a reason. There cold be countless others, though.

 

[IceCold]

Even if it were true, what's the difference? It's a religious symbol.

Yeah of a non existing religion. A tremendous amount of things in the world today are of religious origins or exist due to the contributes made by religious institutions. It's strange to avoid these things even if you don't believe in them.

I have to wonder, how do you go about your daily life without referring to the days of the week?

Do you have your own set of names to refer to the different planets and moons of our solar system?

 

[Marty Chinn]

Because maybe you're not in the business of validating and enabling the church of Scientology by acknowledging them. Could be a reason. There cold be countless others, though.

Does that mean you don't associate with people who have any type of religious belief? Why would you validate them?

 

[Log4Girlz]

santa claus is kind of a fucked up thing to lie to your kids about

"Just sit on the old man's lap dear, and he'll get you anything you want".

 

[trinest]

I
Is there any credible evidence it's harmful?

I think it will become more harmful as it becomes more and more corperate and evil.

 

[AceOcelot]

Tell them that he's real; eventually they'll realize that their parents care about them

 

[Marty Chinn]

Yeah of a non existing religion. A tremendous amount of things in the world today are of religious origins or exist due to the contributes made by religious institutions. It's strange to avoid these things even if you don't believe in them.

I have to wonder, how do you go about your daily life without referring to the days of the week?

Do you have your own set of names to refer to the different planets and moons of our solar system?

Thanks for this, you made this point better than I was going to.

 

[Broder Salsa]

When I was like 8 I busted my mom and dad in having sex on the couch in the middle of the night at my dads house, my parents had been split up for quite a few years at that point. So I asked something like "what are you doing?!" and my mom panicked and got me to leave quickly and got up. So I asked again and she said "Mummy and Daddy were fighting".

Now that was a messed up lie, from now on I thought fighting naked was completely normal, consequences were had.

 

[Gustav]

Does that mean you don't associate with people who have any type of religious belief? Why would you validate them?

So far I haven't been avoiding religious people actively, but I have no friends/close acquaintances that are religious, if that is what you're asking.

 

[IHaveCandy]

Yeah of a non existing religion. A tremendous amount of things in the world today are of religious origins or exist due to the contributes made by religious institutions. It's strange to avoid these things even if you don't believe in them.

I have to wonder, how do you go about your daily life without referring to the days of the week?

Do you have your own set of names to refer to the different planets and moons of our solar system?

The days of the week are based on the first 7 discovered planet, including the Sun and Moon.

 

[The Adder]

Dogma is not a religion.

Dogma, in the sense that it is relevant to the conversation, came out first century Christianity and, much like Christmas, had entered more secular use over time.

You, my friend, are a walking contradiction.

Not to mention you've got the whole "stick to the letter of my beliefs and not the spirit, at least until it inconveniences me" thing down pat.

 

[Lothar]

1. I think it's ridiculous that people think letting your kid not believe in Santa Claus will make him a social outcast. That is just absurd. Even if he goes around telling people in his class Santa isn't real, they will find out, maybe cry about it for a bit at first at worst, and then move on. Nobody holds a grudge on a kid for being the one that spoiled Santa Claus for them. At least, it doesn't happen often enough to even worry about it.

Kids won't believe him. They'll just think he's an annoying douchebag for the entire month of December for as many years until they find out. At least that's my experience with one of those kids telling me and my group of friends that Santa wasn't real.

 

[IHaveCandy]

When I was like 8 I busted my mom and dad in having sex on the couch in the middle of the night at my dads house, my parents had been split up for quite a few years at that point. So I asked something like "what are you doing?!" and my mom panicked and got me to leave quickly and got up. So I asked again and she said "Mummy and Daddy were fighting".

Now that was a messed up lie, from now on I thought fighting naked was completely normal, consequences were had.

Yeah, sex is another thing that is stupidly hidden from kids. There's this tradition of attributing shame to sex.

 

[IHaveCandy]

Kids won't believe him. They'll just think he's an annoying douchebag for the entire month of December for as many years until they find out. At least that's my experience with one of those kids telling me and my group of friends that Santa wasn't real.

I had a couple of those kids in school and nobody gave them shit for it. And even if a couple of kids don't believe him or think he is weird, so what? Should I also teach my kid God is real so he doesn't stick out from the other kids? Should I buy him the expensive name brand clothes so he doesn't stick out too?

 

[EdibleExplosives]

Many people in this thread shall be visited by three ghosts on Christmas Eve and truly discover the meaning of Christmas.

I can't imagine not celebrating Christmas, some of my best memories of my childhood was during Christmas. It's a holiday to get family together, it doesn't have to be about religion at all.