My main argument is not productive. It seems to be urs. My main problem is a video game is a collective job or project tht needs people to be together to make 1 collective thing. Its not a report or a job where u can do your own job alone at home.its 2 comeplty difrent thingdNewsflash, you clearly haven't spent time in an actual corporate office: slackers slack just as well in office as at home. Dare I say it's even easier in the office because you can cruise by your buddy's cube, pop in the breakroom or find other ways to BS around that get overlooked because you're "badged in"
If your main argument is productivity, just stop:
7 Data-Backed Facts About Return to Office | Visier
New Visier research shows flexible return-to-office policies boost retention, while mandates increase turnover and recruitment challenges.www.visier.com
The Data Is In: Return-to-Office Mandates Aren’t Worth the Talent Risks
Nearly three-quarters of executives say return-to-office (RTO) mandates are a source of leadership conflict. Lack of work-life balance ranks among the top five reasons employees quit.futureofhr.eu
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MachineGames asking more staff to move to full-time office work
- Thread starter IbizaPocholo
- Start date
- Opinion Business Game Dev
Cool but ur not making something with other people a collective project where all those jobs get put together to make 1 good product. Most people who work from home dont need other workers for help or to do their job for them. Its 2 difeent things u cant compare it to ur job from home
gamerEMdoc
Member
Take all emotions and feelings out of this for people that feel passionately on either side. Corporations care about one thing. Money. If there was data that showed employees were on average, equally productive by working from home, they would 100% have everyone work from home. No building overhead. The fact that companies want to make people return to an office that they have to maintain, heat in the winter, cool in the summer, and have cleaned means that its very obvious that the workforce is less productive at home and its losing them money compared to maintaining a building and making people show up to work.
Plague Doctor
Member
You can debate either side of this arguement but got to keep in mind that this is a tactic for soft layoffs.
Bernardougf
Member
Yes and no.. because once the layoffs are made they wont suddenly reverse the new wfh policy...
Plague Doctor
Member
True. But personal and anecdotal, they still retain some remote employees that they deem valuable/productive or transition them to a consultancy role that is comparible.
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phant0m
Member
Yes they will, or at least ease it once they realize their local talent pool in the 'big city' is overpriced and lacking.
LyricalShrike
Member
Do you have much of a social life outside of work? I seldom socialized with coworkers outside of office hours even when I did work in offices. Maintaining a barrier between my personal and professional lives is important to me. The few people I do have relationships with are those that ended up going into business with me. Even then, we aren't close like my actual friends.
Working from home has made it easier for me to engage with friends and take up hobbies since I don't need to commute and my downtime can be used productively.
The policy becomes hybrid after the policy has had it's intended result. Top staff already have remote working defined as a benefit in their employment agreements and/or have bonuses to keep them productive.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Many of my best friends come from work. Talk to them all the time and even go on trips with them. Even been to many of their weddings, and even joined my boss' stag in Vegas.
Having great friends from work make work more fun, outside work fun, and always helps with getting another job or just shooting the shit or learning about things in life from other people. Even my real estate agent, mortgage broker and lawyer I've known for 20 years I got from coworker recos. A coworker I work closely with even needed help one time if I could pick up her kid because she couldnt. Not a big deal. It doesnt even have to be super close relationships. One of my old work buddies from my first job in like 1999 I talk to. Went to his wedding and even to this day we have fun texting each other about hockey and we meet up for dinner or a ballgame once a year to catch up.
Knowing coworkers well doesnt mean the relationship becomes really odd or political. Only drawback is if it affects each other's work if something outside of the office messed it up. But as long as anyone can avoid that speed bump, it should be smooth sailing.
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StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Dont people just want to get out of the house? I find it amazing people want to be cooped up all day at home working by themselves. I wonder if they trend to being the same people who order everything from Amazon and Uber Eats and never want to get out of the house to shop too.
Because if it's too much effort to wake up and commute to work, it should also be too much wasted gas and effort to go grocery shopping or waiting in giant Costco lines when it's easier to click what you want for home delivery.
phant0m
Member
All false. If you work an office/desk job people doomscroll, browse Reddit and watch YT all day. I know because I've seen the logs. While you're more limited on the ways to slack off, general slacking is way easier IN the office: stop by a coworker's cube to BS. Hit the break room. Scroll your phone. Hit the on-site gym. All those things are far more looked over because you're 'badged in', and let's be honest management isn't paying attention anyway. They're all booked on Teams or Zoom calls for 10 hours a day.
For the people that have continuous problems with availability, disappear for hours, etc - FIRE THEM. They're not going to be great employees on-site either. The answer to shitty employees should not be to make the ones who have been doing a great job remotely suffer.
As for "the higher up have metrics", yes they do. And the data shows remote work did not cause general productivity loss, in fact some improvements and a great increase in employee morale. Look at my earlier posts in this thread for the links.
phant0m
Member
This is the most retarded comparison I've seen on here in a long time. No one has to get up at 5 or 6 in the morning to take an hour+ commute to the fucking grocery store. And if they did, I sure as fuck wouldn't blame them for wanting to get Amazon fresh instead.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
LOL. How many people wake up at 5 or 6 am to commute to the office by 9 am.
And who says everyone is an hour+ commute? I can get to the office in 30+ minutes. I know people who can get to the office in less than 15 minutes. I know because way back I used to live across the street from a coworker at my old place. If youre a WFH and live close to the office, why is it a tough slog to drive 20 minutes to get there by 9 am?
Most people in the workforce dont even WFH. They've always been on-premise workers even during covid, but had to probably put on a mask.
If everyone else can figure out how to wake up and commute, why is it so impossible for you to? I used to commute hour+ at an old job at my old place (Toronto highway 401 worst ever). I still figured out how to go to the office.
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phant0m
Member
When my company did RTO last year, the "measuring stick" was 90 minutes for being in-scope for RTO. Ask anyone that works in an office in SF, Dallas, Chicago, NYC, Boston. Live in a suburb 20-30 miles outside of the city, easily an hour commute.
Glad you live the fantasy land of everyone lives 30 minutes or less from the office, but don't be fucking daft
Did you walk uphill both ways to school too?
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StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Never said everyone is 30 min or less. I even said I used to commute an hour+ myself. I figured out how to wake up on time and get to the office.
I know people who also live 1.5 hours. One of those guys who moved during covid. He can figure out how to get to the office too. He might not like it but that's his problem for moving. He literally doubled his commute time. Nobody told him to move during covid time but he and the wife still did.
You make it sound like every person on earth who has a long commute cant get to work on time. And everyone has a long commute. Like it's an impossible thing to do.
As for grade school/high school. Ya I walked. 15-20 min each way snow or rain. What's the big deal? University downtown I took the bus and subway. In the morning, bus stop first to the subway station, then a quick transfer to the other subway line south. And coming home it's the reverse. Took roughly 75 minutes. What's the problem? I didnt have a car during university.
You got serious issues getting up in the morning and commuting. You should probably go to bed earlier instead of waking up 5 min before logging on from home. That's probably why youre the kind of guy whose always drained of energy getting up. So commuting to work or school is extra draining.
Believe it or not, not everyone who commutes to work/school are all zombified drained people.
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phant0m
Member
Where did I imply that I, nor anyone else, couldn't "get to work on time"? My original reply to your asinine grocery store analogy about getting up at 5 or 6 was because a lot of people are in the office before 9am and/or do need to do other things besides roll out of bed, get dressed and hop into their daily commute.
You got serious issues thinking everyone else's life and office are the exact same as yours and anyone that doesn't want to commute is lazy and "zombified".
But Jesus buttfucking Christ I've never met anyone on the planet that likes commuting as much as you, so here's your gold fucking star
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StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Who ever said I love commuting to work or walking to school in snowboots as a kid?Where did I imply that I, nor anyone else, couldn't "get to work on time"? My original reply to your asinine grocery store analogy about getting up at 5 or 6 was because a lot of people are in the office before 9am and/or do need to do other things besides roll out of bed, get dressed and hop into their daily commute.
You got serious issues thinking everyone else's life and office are the exact same as yours and anyone that doesn't want to commute is lazy and "zombified".
But Jesus buttfucking Christ I've never met anyone on the planet that likes commuting as much as you, so here's your gold fucking star
All I'm saying is commuting to work isnt some impossible thing to do which you make it out to be as if every person has hour+ commutes and cant handle it.
Most people dont wfh. Most people probably have decently long commutes (especially people stuck at bus stops in bad weather), but all of us can figure out how to get up and get to work/school.
So if everyone else can why cant you? And your example of people commuting needing to get up at 5 or 6 am is stupid as well. You really think someone needing to be at the office by 9 am has to get up 3 or 4 hours early?
I dont need a gold star. I can get up. But if you can prove you can wake up and commute to an office on time, I'll give you one. lol
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phant0m
Member
Most companies have leases on the office space that are many years long (usually 7+). So even if it's cheaper to let people WFH, they're still eating rent & maintenance costs on the leased space. As others have mentioned, RTO is also a tool for soft layoffs. There is also pressure from boards & investors on RTO to prop up commercial real estate.
Heavy pushes for RTO will likely continue through the year and into 2027. But come 2028, investors can unload their commercial real estate and those leases fall off, RTO stances will soften again.
phant0m
Member
I spent a decade commuting and was never late before I got opportunities to WFH, including 3 years on 3rd shift.
So fuck off, you holier-than-thou jackass.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
You make it sound like all these leases were just signed recently during covid.
If WFH is such a money saver then all those leases that already expired during covid to now would all be thinned out not being renewed. But most signed a new lease to keep it going. If anything, companies are ramping up RTO the past couple years.
Most companies dont own the land or building. So if anything they whould be telling their workers to WFH so the commerical landlords get desperate and drop the rates. Getting people to RTO just makes the landlord jack up the rates at next renewal.
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StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
There yo go. It's not so draining to commute in the morning after all.
phant0m
Member
The most draining thing is watching you argue that commuting is somehow a quintessential part of being employed.
"Stub my toe on the way to work every day. Why can't you stub your toe? It is really that hard? Can't stub your toe because you're too drained and lazy? Fuckin' kids these days. Used to stub my toe real good just for the opportunity of that office job, now they won't even stub their toe a little bit. Sad entitled zombies. Maybe put your big boy pants on and get up in the morning so you can stub your toe like the rest of us honest-working folks."
No, actually I can just do my job without stubbing my toe.
AeonGaidenRaiden
Member
Exactly. Besides socializing, I just want a reason to also leave the house, and use my motorcycle. Get some sun and fresh air. Obviously, I get it if someone commutes to work for over an hour with a metro or bus, that its an absolute ass of an experiecce but if your work is somewhat close by, I really dont see any issues going to work a couple of days a week instead of being at home 5 days a week.
AeonGaidenRaiden
Member
I believe this was foolproof at the very beginning of Covid era. But Covid is long gone and after 3 years only since its been gone, I find it laughable that people are outraged that their boss is asking them to come back into the office. As with anything, people are getting more and more comfortable so they start taking advantage of it. Im sure these companies wouldnt be calling people in if it all worked as intended. Also look at the gaming output since Covid, are companies really taking so long to put out a game because the new game is bigger (while having better tech to work with) or is it because its hard to get 300 people on the same page and in check to make sure they follow deadlines?
A tiny company of 10 people sure. A company like Naughty Dog of 400+ employees is an absolute nightmare to follow up with when there is noone walking past them to check if they did their work or not. At the end of the day, employees are now being entitled tits as if they own the company. If your boss or manager tells you to do something, you go and do it because they are paying you for that. You chose them and you can also quit if you dont like it. But anyone acting like they are getting their "freedom" taken away can fuck right off. Make your own company and be the boss. When you work for someone you do what you are told, its really that simple as you are replacable in an instant. And being told what to do is not something negative, its what you learned from your parents and your teachers. Its totally ok to follow orders, doesnt mean you are being taken advantage off FOR DOING WHAT YOU WERE HIRED FOR.
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Sorry, WFH is great. Companies waste so much time on useless meetings. I'm in a country where half of the workers take the longest cigarette breaks, half of their day is useless. They constantly interrupt work for useless small talk or questions that could be asked via a communications app.
My commute is almost 2:30h long (home to work and back). I feel absolutely drained and despite reaching a managerial position, I'm trying to leave and find something that allows me some three days a week from home. While some kn person contact surely is positive, the idea that work can only be done in person is idiotic and they will lose a worker very soon.
My commute is almost 2:30h long (home to work and back). I feel absolutely drained and despite reaching a managerial position, I'm trying to leave and find something that allows me some three days a week from home. While some kn person contact surely is positive, the idea that work can only be done in person is idiotic and they will lose a worker very soon.
LyricalShrike
Member
I am social with my colleagues even to the point of attending major family events when appropriate. I'm just not friends with them. I make most of my friends with people who I met sharing common interests or social activities. Some colleagues end up being friends but my point was that I think its sad for all of one's social circles to be tied to work. Work is a means to an end. I've seen enough older guys struggle to deal with life after leaving their professional networks because most of their identity was somehow tied to people they worked with.
I like my home and neighborhood. I wake up at 06:15 to get my kids ready for school and I'm home by 07:20. I swim every day for about an hour then take my morning calls with a light breakfast in one of my condo's gardens. I head upstairs to start working on the day's tasks. I'm free to play my trumpet, take a walk, or lounge on the sofa when I get stumped and need some space to think. I work outside the home whenever I'm working on things which aren't sensitive. My favorite places to work are either on the beach or in one of our nature reserves. I eat almost exclusively at home since my wife is an excellent cook but I do frequently take lunches with friends and colleagues since my schedule is flexible. WFH is great when you're able to manage it properly.
I will admit to using delivery for heavy or bulky stuff like detergent/staples since the price in the store is comparable and delivery is free.
Paasei
Member
I only work from home on Fridays. A fulltime work schedule in this office is 36 hours, I'm not going to the office for a 4 hour day. Funnily enough I always end up somewhere between 5 to 6 hours of work on those days, instead of 4.
We're allowed to work 2 days from home, but I very rarely make use of that 2nd day. Only do that when there's other things I need to do. Visit the doctor or something along those lines.
Being at the office doesn't bother me whatsoever. Commuting to the office does.
We're allowed to work 2 days from home, but I very rarely make use of that 2nd day. Only do that when there's other things I need to do. Visit the doctor or something along those lines.
Being at the office doesn't bother me whatsoever. Commuting to the office does.
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phant0m
Member
No, according to
StreetsofBeige
if your commute is over an hour you need to just suck it up and figure it out, put on your big boy pants and stop being lazy or move because it's your fault for living so far from your job.He travelled 75 mins each way to go to college. Why can't you figure it out?
First, do you think Office Space is real life? I've worked in professional offices for over 15 years and NEVER ONCE has a manager "stopped by my cube" to check if I 'do my work or not'. Seriously? Most managers' calendars are so packed with meetings they don't have time to stroll around and micromanage.
Second, doing what I was hired for? Was I hired to sit in a chair? Or sit in traffic? Or was I hired to fulfill a business need?
And if I'm fulfilling that business need working from home, what's the problem? Why am I an 'entitled tit' for viewing spending hours of the day commuting as a waste of time and energy?
I'll give you there are certain roles or professions that just don't work remotely, whether logistically or technologically. But the 'everyone that is against RTO is an entitled lazy slacker' sentiment in this thread is fucking WILD
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
That would explain the general crankiness against the idea, lol.
Ocean Dweller
Member
proof?
phant0m
Member
they don't have any. all the _actual_ studies show it's the opposite:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/curtst...e-its-not-about-productivity-its-about-power/
7 Data-Backed Facts About Return to Office | Visier
New Visier research shows flexible return-to-office policies boost retention, while mandates increase turnover and recruitment challenges.
https://futureofhr.eu/rto-leadership-conflict
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64gigabyteram
Reverse groomer.
let them work from home. let them be "lazy". let them eat chips lmao.
You do not need all the excessive crunch time and in office presence. You just need better management and an actual vision/roadmap for your game. something that you can't get no matter where the job takes place.
If you're not fond of the current game development practices in the AAA industry you can pull a
TintoConCasera
n make one yourself to stick a middle finger to the corporations. 
You do not need all the excessive crunch time and in office presence. You just need better management and an actual vision/roadmap for your game. something that you can't get no matter where the job takes place.
If you're not fond of the current game development practices in the AAA industry you can pull a
TintoConCasera
n make one yourself to stick a middle finger to the corporations.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
LOL. Ya, great links. Visier is a cloud based HR platform selling AI based software package. It's purpose is to cut costs, and that would include more home based people.they don't have any. all the _actual_ studies show it's the opposite:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/curtst...e-its-not-about-productivity-its-about-power/
7 Data-Backed Facts About Return to Office | Visier
New Visier research shows flexible return-to-office policies boost retention, while mandates increase turnover and recruitment challenges.
www.visier.com
https://futureofhr.eu/rto-leadership-conflict
As for the Forbes article. Just as I suspected. A WFH guy who only cares about his own schedule. Thats not how a business works. There's other people where the collective pool of workers get the job done. Not lone wolfs doing their own thing at any time of the day. Given how this guy works, if you ask for something he's not getting back to you until tomorrow at the earliest. Or you purposely stay up at midnight hoping he emails you and you then decide to work at midnight too with him. No thanks. If commuting in the morning during rush hour is such a brain drain, it shows the guy has bad work ethic. If anything, a person waking up should be the most energetic because you havent been up all day where you get sleepy and need go to bed. If someone cant work effectively commuting to work when the vast majority of people can do it fine shows he's an outlier. And not the norm.
As for the third link, not sure. I clicked it and get some Windows malware kind of screen denying me entry because it's not a secure website.
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JohnnyFootball
GerAlt-Right. Ciriously.
Roni
Banned
Ok, so no proof then. Just say that.
Kokoloko85
Member
3 days at the office, 2 days at home is cool and with modern tech it can work if some heads are looking over the lazy butts.
But I dont want to give devs to be given that luxury lol.
5 days in the office, 2 days at home. You wanna be a fucking game developer? -Dana White
But I dont want to give devs to be given that luxury lol.
5 days in the office, 2 days at home. You wanna be a fucking game developer? -Dana White
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Battlesmurf
Member
Going to step in here.
I work in psych/marketing/etc. I might remind you that the core of this isn't "what would we act like if working from home" but perhaps rather "what would we act like if we were more relaxed and less stressed"- which is a big benefit for WFH.
The data and research (ignoring the link a few blocks above) supports that working from home leads to more productivity as workers are less tired from commutes. Often times workers put in additional time (or at the minimum more productive time) despite being at home- in most cases. I.e. if someone is working from home for 8 hours or in the office 8 hours- there are questions. Would you rather 8 half ass motivated hours, or 6 fully motivated awesome hours? -- Consider crunch time. Does the quality of work go up or down if someone is forced to give 80 hard hours a week? What does that do to the human? Are they happy? Do they make less errors? Do they enjoy the work and want to see it completed wonderfully? Does it burn them out?
If workers are more prone to getting burned out- does that increase or decrease the experience pool of the video games we enjoy?
Face to face *can* be a benefit- group cohesion is wonderful! It is a little shortsighted to say that is the only metric // ingredient for a good game these days. Check out the indie scene with team members that don't exist in the same countries. Killing it on deadlines, budgets, morale, ROI, etc.
Brain experiment. If you tell the office workers "hey, finish this project milestone and you can leave early friday"- how many workers will put in good energy? Now- imagine that energy is every day.
The workers that were going to slack off at home will slack off at work too, as a point.
It is easier to get into a flow state in our comfort place.
Someone mentioned "if the budget reflected WFO working, they wouldn't ask for people back in the office". Not true either. If you see a lot of the reasoning for return to office- the calls are made by "old heads" - the kind of boss (not leader) that thinks things need to be the way they were because that's how they always were. Resistant to change and new things. A lot of research into this shows that some of it is greed or grabbing at straws. I.E. if the game shipped 2million copies and has a metacritic score of 80, maybe we could have had an 85 if everybody was in the office and crunched more?? Versus the thinking that if that had been the case- perhaps the deadline would have been hit (or not hit), a 75 metacritic, sold 2.1 million, lost 10% of staff, etc.
A good case study on retaining expertise and the importance of fostering morale, not shitcanning talent easily, etc- Nintendo. It's why they're a timeless company so far and have had so much success.
Source--- extremely qualified to weigh in on this.
TLDR: I know there is a lot of pushback on WFH- but legit- completely WFH may not be the answer, but completely WAO is not either.
Battlesmurf
Member
Normally I don't comment- but I have to here. If you take a little more time to type out the words, you'll be taken a lot more seriously.
With the amount of time/effort/money spent on collaborative efforts/software, the idea that we need to physically exist in the same room to work on a piece of software that doesn't physically exist is not a good one. If you have a room of 1000 people- how many people's ideas are getting across? If you have a room of 10 people- how many ideas? Same thing- a zoom meeting with 10 people that last 15 minutes is still waaaaay less draining, waaay more efficient than a meeting that took an hour to get to just to sit in a room. Which one leads to happier people? Do happier people work harder or provide less quality work?
Team Andromeda
Banned
This woke nonsense needs to stop, and staff need to get back in the office
PeteBull
Gold Member
Lets put it this way, planet fitness visit might result in some unexpected "gainz"
