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Mafia Season Six | Review Thread | Snatching Defeat from the Jaws of Victory

Things posted in GirlGAF belong staying there. It is a safe thread for the female neogaffers, who get excessive attention and scrutiny when they dare to contribute to the whole website.

Just assume that I am an ambassador for the sensitive ladies and they support everything I've told you since I started playing Mafia.

But "being more inclusive" is such a blank statement. You know me to a certain degree. I'm a white, cis-male, primary heterosexual physics student. I can't relate to girl-GAF's experience first-hand. Therefore I try to rationalize the situation and act according to some rules (like not calling you "arthur" or using the appropiate pronouns). But without concrete (maybe made-up) examples what's right and wrong behavior I can't. My instinctive attempt for "being more inclusive" would be to get rid of any pressure that could make the other person feel uncomfortable. But pressure is an important part of Mafia, and I also don't think that's what you actually mean. I assume it is annoying but you have to help us helping you.

E: ok, I just remembered you gave an example what pissed you off specifically but I have trouble transferring that to other players we might have driven away.

Without getting into a nature vs. nurture debate.
In English speaking countries, females receive different social training than males. And possibly there is inborn tendency to value social relationships over other considerations like position.

The tech industry and the videogame community are having similar issues with lack of female representation, and studies have been done that show the interest in the field can be easily squelched in females early in life. This is partly societal, but one study showed that even interested females would be turned off from joining tech related college majors by the simple method of making the environment visually exclude women.

Basically, if you don't make much effort to ALLOW the possibility of female participation, the environment will appear unpleasant from the outside, and the female demographic will self select out of the area.

I say Lost the Right because of the losses of previous participants who don't want to fight with y'all.

There will still be a certain percentage of females who will join. Statistically they are likely to be the boldest personalities. Tales from my ass suggest that you will be losing about 75% of the entire population by not making much effort to be inclusive.
Edit: whereas my ass says that only about 25% of males will be far enough to the 'sensitive' side of the emotional spectrum to self select away.

ok, so are we agreeing that the community as a whole doesn't treat players differently based on their gender? So it would be rather a matter of different genders on average perceiving the same behavior differently? And that would create kind of a positive-feedback-loop with players being ok with that behavior strengthening it once integrated in the community?
 

RetroMG

Member
It seems clear that the current status of the Gafia community is: lost the right to play with girls.

This is an oversimplification and lends itself to the view that the situation is purely black and white. It is not. As others have pointed out, some of our female players are happy - Dragonz and Sophia,for example.

People keep asking me if Gafia is going to split in two over this. The answer is no. We are going to find guidelines that will hopefully help our friends from GirlGAF feel comfortable rejoining us, and we're going to do it together.

EDIT: going back, I see that the topic has been somewhat addressed, but the rest of my point stands. If you are here to help find solutions, awesome. If you're just here to argue, save your fingers.

EDIT2: In context, it look like my first edit is directed at Weemad. It's directed at everyone.
 

*Splinter

Member
But it can't be denied that a large percentage of females that have played a gafia game don't want to come back due to excess aggressiveness.
Sure it can. You just said this was based on tales from your ass, now it can't be denied?

I don't doubt there are people that have been put off by aggressiveness in this community. I've certainly crossed the line a few times myself - and also been on the receiving end of exchanges that made me want to quit. No community is perfect, and I'm not saying we shouldn't try to improve.

But people quit Mafia for a lot of reasons. I'm not going to assert this as fact - as you have done - but I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of people who don't come back simply aren't interested. We could be the most lovable, welcoming community on the internet but a lot of people are still going to find they're just not that into Mafia.

I have no idea why you are making this a gender issue.

If GirlGAF have chosen as a group to avoid Gafia then I think that's very unfortunate, and I can only hope people - if interested - will choose to experience Gafia for themselves rather than be dissuaded by the few who have poor impressions of our community.

If you have specific examples I think they would be worth discussing, but I don't agree with your assertion that "a large percentage" of anyone has quit due to aggression.
 

RetroMG

Member
This is going to sound controversial, but I feel like our goal should not just be to reclaim our friends in GirlGAF.

Our goal instead should be to create a place where everyone is welcome. Where the rules are clearly stated, and everyone is respectful to one another while still having fun.

Can we do it? I think we can.
 

roytheone

Member
Is it an idea do introduce a way for players to post something that is clearly outside of the game. With that I mean things like Weemad's post about their preferred shorthand. That was clearly outside of the actual game,but some may have not realized that and looked at the post with the type of skepticism you should always look at game posts. By introducing a way to clearly signaling :"hey, this post is outside of the game, don't question it, that's not allowed" those misunderstandings could maybe be avoided. Of course, for this to work misusing this rule should be forbidden.
 

Sophia

Member
I don't doubt there are people that have been put off by aggressiveness in this community. I've certainly crossed the line a few times myself - and also been on the receiving end of exchanges that made me want to quit. No community is perfect, and I'm not saying we shouldn't try to improve.

Hehe, we joke about it now, but I do remember Gods and how frustrating it was for both of us at the time. :D

That was a hard game. >_>;
 
This is going to sound controversial, but I feel like our goal should not just be to reclaim our friends in GirlGAF.

Our goal instead should be to create a place where everyone is welcome. Where the rules are clearly stated, and everyone is respectful to one another while still having fun.

Can we do it? I think we can.
We definitely have the potential to, but I forsee a lot of personality clashes as a result of this.
 
Sure it can. You just said this was based on tales from your ass, now it can't be denied?

I don't doubt there are people that have been put off by aggressiveness in this community. I've certainly crossed the line a few times myself - and also been on the receiving end of exchanges that made me want to quit. No community is perfect, and I'm not saying we shouldn't try to improve.

But people quit Mafia for a lot of reasons. I'm not going to assert this as fact - as you have done - but I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of people who don't come back simply aren't interested. We could be the most lovable, welcoming community on the internet but a lot of people are still going to find they're just not that into Mafia.

I have no idea why you are making this a gender issue.

If GirlGAF have chosen as a group to avoid Gafia then I think that's very unfortunate, and I can only hope people - if interested - will choose to experience Gafia for themselves rather than be dissuaded by the few who have poor impressions of our community.

If you have specific examples I think they would be worth discussing, but I don't agree with your assertion that "a large percentage" of anyone has quit due to aggression.

Regarding the bolded, if I hear from multiple people whose opinion I trust that a community is not welcoming then I won't bother to experience myself because there are far better things I can do with my time than to potentially put myself in a situation that sucks. I can't see how being less aggressive would hurt because I really don't see how over-aggressiveness has really caught scum, more often than not, it just pisses off a lot of town.

This is going to sound controversial, but I feel like our goal should not just be to reclaim our friends in GirlGAF.

Our goal instead should be to create a place where everyone is welcome. Where the rules are clearly stated, and everyone is respectful to one another while still having fun.

Can we do it? I think we can.
Well considering we know a reason why one section of people aren't returning I don't see why we shouldn't continue down a path that would correct it. But, more likely than not, creating a more welcoming and less overly-aggressive community would attract more than just girlgaf.

Have we ever done a more widespread survey as to why some of the older players and newbies from past seasons haven't returned? Because that could also go a long way into finding more ways to correct our situation.
 

Sorian

Banned
When I'm being told we've lost the right to play with girlgaf and then later being told that it isn't entirely a gender issue then I have to point out that I'm being fed bullshit with a side of agenda. It's a false comparison to say that video games and tech companies drove out women early on because the gafia divide has nothing to do with gender, it has to do with personality. We can pretend all day that we can change the game to cater to everyone so no one hurts their toes when they get stepped on but that just isn't going to happen.

We had a couple assholes in season 6 that decided to purposely ignore the "decency" rules as I'll call them and that is being handled so that those rules are more defined and expectations are re-aligned, that is not indicative of a mass group problem though, when you start applying the fringe elements to the whole you get ludicrous scenarios like half of American politics thinking all Muslims are terrorists (extreme example used purposely).

So yes, I want to be as inclusive as possible but at the end of the day, a community is not accepting of everyone because there will be people with personalities that just don't work oh that community. We don't need a girlgaf ambassador nor do we need someone to come in and "crack some skulls" to change the whole community to let girlgaf on. We aren't girlgaf, we are Gafia. Some from girlgaf will have no interest or find when they get here that they didn't like it. Some from popgaf will feel the same and fakegaf, etc. etc. We're not in the business of integrating full communities, we're in the business of finding gaffers who want to hang out and play mafia. Hell, that's not even all we are about, we have someone who goes into discord everyday who will probably never play mafia with us but likes to hang out.

The community as a whole is inclusive regardless of what we want to pretend. We need to cut out some garbage on the fringe which is getting addressed.

/rant
 

CzarTim

Member
Edit: several people have responded while typing this, I don't mean to pile on on make you feel like we're ganging up.


I said I pulled the percentages from my ass.

It can't be denied that I have been told by multiple individuals that they have no interest in playing with Gafia due to aggressiveness, and yet they still express interest in playing Mafia in general.

I have already addressed this is not entirely a gender issue. It has been exacerbated by the pronoun issue, which some members don't see as an issue. This is a personality issue.

I have been under the impression that I'm helping to clarify the problem. No one else is jumping at the chance to have this discussion. So I will happily go away upon request. That could very well end the discussion.
It's frustrating when you come in and imply that it's us vs them and everyone needs to pick a side. That doesn't really help educate on how to go forward. More people have expressed a willingness to be more inclusive (even if they are unsure how) than have flat out said no. Most people have been silent, I imagine, because this is a sensitive topic and they don't want to offend.

Our community's rules have always been no personal attacks, not questioning real life commitments, and using the proper pronouns. We've not always done the best job enforcing those, and we should work on improving that end of things. If we can do anything to improve the language we use in defining what is and is not acceptable, feel free to make suggestions.

While I understand you are frustrated, I hope you can appreciate that some of us are frustrated too because we aren't sure what exactly needs to be Done to be more inclusive. It is confusing when "aggressiveness" which is a part of all mafia to some extent, is blanketed as the cause of these problems. Everyone will have differing opinions on what is and is not crossing the line. In addition, this is a social game. Personality clashing is inevitable. There are people I'd rather not play with. Some for personal reasons (cabot), some because of their play style (also cabot.) You say we have larger problems in our community, and I believe you. Please help us understand what we can practically do to improve.

I very much want to make changes if it makes helps people feel more comfortable. And I hope those who have been wronged pm yn or retro with their issues, or if they are comfortable enough, post here with examples so those of us who want to learn can.
 

Sorian

Banned
To add on actually with OA's post in mind. Every time I've seen someone get mad about aggression it's always either something personal or something that was perceived as personal. That's what need to be fixed, being aggressive in the game is fine (and yes does help) but when it becomes personal it's the fault of who is being aggressive and sorry but when it's being perceived as personal when it's not that's something on the receiver.
 

RetroMG

Member
The question of whether or not changes need to be made is moot. To be perfectly honest, the posts Ynnny alluded to hit me harder than everything Weemad said put together.

The question is not if we need to do something. The question is what do we do now.

This is a VERY rough version of my proposal.

First, a series of behavioral guidelines - Kark's post on page 1 is a good start, but a few things need to be expanded. I'm working on that. Aggressive play will be allowed, as long as it does not become abusive. More on this soon. (I have an outline done.)

Second, setting the expectation for future mods to be more involved in their games, to watch for issues.

Finally, a series of guidelines for players who feel like they have been the victim of inappropriate or overly aggressive behavior.

Thoughts so far? I was going to outline more, but I want the current mods to ratify it before I present it to the community.
 

cabot

Member
There are people I'd rather not play with. Some for personal reasons (cabot), some because of their play style (also cabot.)

giphy.gif
 

Sorian

Banned
Anyone who feels they were the victim of something should let their mod know instead of scampering away and yelling from the mountain that gafia is the worst but I don't think that's actually behavior we can put a guideline on. Hopefully with the first two things you are working on, maybe people will know that their mod (or any mod) is a good resource to go to for anything but at the end of the day, putting it on the victim to seek us out isn't going to help much, they just need to know the resource is there and hopefully the health of the community can go up with people communicating better.
 

RetroMG

Member
Anyone who feels they were the victim of something should let their mod know instead of scampering away and yelling from the mountain that gafia is the worst but I don't think that's actually behavior we can put a guideline on.

I agree, however the idea is to have consistent management of issues between games. If someone has an issue in Animal Crossing 2 and later has an issue in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy mafia*, they should be able to expect the same process to be followed.

*No, this is not a real game that's being worked on.
 

Sorian

Banned
Your fringe assholes, as you call them, are here in the review thread voting that there are no issues need to be addressed. They want fewer thin-skinned people playing with them.

Retro commented that there appears to be no middle ground between that viewpoint and mine. A number of people have asked which way the community will fall; most community choices have been via majority opinion. While the rephrased rules should indeed help, there still seems to be some pushback against adopting them. If creation of the rephrased rules is the indication of a final decision, well I'm not sure that's clear yet.

Examples are something I've already told Royal I can work on, if desired. I specified that I needed confirmation that the group wants me to do that, a direction on my methodology question.

Look, we can do this all day but thin skin in personal real life is not something that needs to be pushed out. Thin skin inside of the game world is something that does need to be trained up in some way, it's as simple as that.

Let's actually talk in specifics because I have no clue what you are talking about. Who are you considering fringe assholes? From my view, I believe it was Kris, Palmer, and Haly (I'm sorry if I'm wrong on any of those, feel free to correct me) that went into it with you over the use of "Arthur," the group giving you pushback was in the wrong, no one is debating that and that's the main issue that I'm talking about where people broke decency rules. I don't see anyone saying there wasn't a problem to fix nor do I see anyone complaining about the rules Retro has put forward and considering you haven't seen them, that mean you also haven't seen complaints either.

No one has said there is no middle ground so I'll throw that point to the side, I'm sure Retro will be by to again say he's never said that.
 

Karkador

Banned
Ugh, the "agenda" accusations are really not necessary. Post incoming. I just want to punt that line of thinking, first and foremost.
 

RetroMG

Member
Retro commented that there appears to be no middle ground between that viewpoint and mine.
That is not what I said. That is, in fact, the VERY OPPOSITE of what I have been saying THIS ENTIRE TIME.

There IS middle ground, but you have to be willing to find it. But that means letting go of the anger, and the condescension, and the angst. Some of us have been willing to do that. Not everyone, but I believe the majority.

Middle ground only appears when everyone is willing to stop clinging to their walls and move TOWARD THE MIDDLE.

One of our "fringe assholes" has informed me that he won't be playing anymore because he's tired of playing politics when we should be playing games. I agree with that sentiment, to be honest, but I am committed to finding a way to make as many people as possible as comfortable here as possible. I'm dedicated to finding a way so that people can still choose to be aggressive, (because we love our Darryls and our Squidys as much as we love our Sophias and our Chandlers,) while still not driving people out of the community.

I think what I'm proposing is the best way. I've shown it to people on both sides of the spectrum, and they've liked it. Is it perfect? No. The only way Gafia will never offend someone is if we shut down Gafia. I'm not willing to do that, so imperfect solutions it is.

No one has said there is no middle ground so I'll throw that point to the side, I'm sure Retro will be by to again say he's never said that.

No fair, you had inside knowledge.
 

Ourobolus

Banned
I'll help mod Season 7, so there will at least be someone who is typically pretty active checking in on the threads. If that includes policing the new policies then sure, I'll do it.
 

Sorian

Banned
If you're going to bring up Haly's name, then I need to specify something.

Haly is cool.

I argued game issues with Haly for a full day phase and a half. He got quite irritated with me, really. Frustration was clear.

I posted a personal post about what to call me.
Haly responded with the thing I requested not to say, just basic asshole stuff. I wasn't thrilled and was concerned I couldn't respond myself without being an even bigger asshole, it's always a danger. So I asked the mod online to say something. Something was said, Haly obeyed, we went on to argue some more game stuff and then even made peace on game stuff.
This was not a problem. While the original asshole name thing was questionable, I'm not going to be immune from doing it too. We dealt with it; I have no ongoing problems with Haly and didn't think he had with me either.

The three of them definitely didn't handle it in the same way. I know well enough (I think) who handled it best and worst and such, I'm just more calling for specifics. I feel like we are toeing issues when we don't name names, it happened, people know and saw, the purpose here is to talk about it and work through it.
 

Ourobolus

Banned
For the record, I did the same thing to Wee in the scum chat. They immediately responded with a bastardized form of my username (which everyone does), and I didn't think any animosity persisted past that (I called them "wee" afterwards, it was just an immediate joke/jab I took).

So wee, if you've got a problem with me as well, please let me know. Not that I'm looking to start anything, just checking my own actions.
 

Ourobolus

Banned
I vaguely remember that. I think if you had kept on I'd have had a problem, but as a one time joke from a teammate it wasn't bad. It feels different when it's in the midst of a game argument I suppose. And it was somewhat ironic from you given your name history - it was more "I know how that feels".

lol

well at this point I know my name isn't the easiest to spell, so I don't take much stock in it. It's more of a running joke at this point.
 

Karkador

Banned
We've talked about how even-handed and dependable rule enforcement is something gamerunners need to pay more attention to.


Now, I'm not really advocating stricter rules, I'm advocating enough information for people to make informed decisions (without it being a contract-length rule sheet, or anything intimidating like that).


Put yourself into the shoes of various prospective mafia players, who read the concept of the game and are interested in playing:

Player A likes the idea of a game where players debate. Maybe they were even part of a debate club in school, and they like getting thick into a battle of wits - but they expect a moderator guiding the conversation and keeping things civil and fair.

Player B likes the idea of getting involved with an active, social community with a game attached. Maybe they aren't too interested in getting deep into it the games, or maybe they're more interested in some kind of leadership in the community (running games, being RetroMG, etc.) than playing; but generally, they're interested in making friends, not getting into fights.

Player C wants to rumble with other players; their idea of a good time is to get into the ring and get their aggression out with other likeminded hotheads.

Player D is pretty shy about online games, but thinks the game sounds fun and wants to learn it.

Player E welcomes every aspect of the game, but doesn't want needless conflict with other players in-game.

Player F showed up because there's some weird game on NeoGAF happening, with a theme they really like, and they just want in on whatever it is.

Player G..... and so on, and so forth.

You get the point. There's many different types of mafia players, who want to play for different reasons. What I'd want (and I think it's reasonable to expect) that people get to navigate themselves to a game that is going to be worth their time, worth their commitment, and gives them the social experience they want. It's a individual personalization thing that we probably aren't addressing by just randomly sorting people into games rated by "craziness".

So it's not about 'pandering' or making mafia about some 'agenda. It's trying to promise every player that they'll get what they want for the time and commitment GAFIA asks them to put in. Honestly, if the sharks in the community want a game to themselves where they can go for the jugular (within GAF's site rules, of course), I say "why not". I think the only reservation there is that they get enough players for it, and the animosity doesn't spill over into any other part of the community, and they can all truly walk it off in the end..

My bet is, we'll get a better-served community of players when people clearly know what we are about, what we're not about, and where you should go for a game that will get you pumped to come back again.
 

Camjo-Z

Member
'Allo guvnahs! Apologies for trespassing into the middle of some positively smashing conversation, but as I've finally completed the roles for my Rareware-themed game on Outer Gafia (and by finished I mean "am vaguely certain I haven't included too many rubbish mechanics"), I thought it prudent to ask if anyone so wishes to give it the old once-over for review. Let it be known that they're most welcome, eh wot?
 

CzarTim

Member
'Allo guvnahs! Apologies for trespassing into the middle of some positively smashing conversation, but as I've finally completed the roles for my Rareware-themed game on Outer Gafia (and by finished I mean "am vaguely certain I haven't included too many rubbish mechanics"), I thought it prudent to ask if anyone so wishes to give it the old once-over for review. Let it be known that they're most welcome, eh wot?

Sure I'll do it.
 

CzarTim

Member
Kark, I get what you are going for, but I'm just not sure we have the players to support that fully. Players would need to pick from a theme they like, craziness they like, and social environment they like. Either they are in a game that doesn't fit their play style, or they have to sit out because nothing available for them.

We have a fairly strict 'three games at a time' rule we need to follow.
 

Sorian

Banned
Kark, I get what you are going for, but I'm just not sure we have the players to support that fully. Players would need to pick from a theme they like, craziness they like, and social environment they like. Either they are in a game that doesn't fit their play style, or they have to sit out because nothing available for them.

We have a fairly strict 'three games at a time' rule we need to follow.

Not sure if you mean it as anything else but the three at a time rule is only because the community is not big enough for more, if we had the numbers that wouldn't be a thing.
 

CzarTim

Member
Not sure if you mean it as anything else but the three at a time rule is only because the community is not big enough for more, if we had the numbers that wouldn't be a thing.
I was under the impression we do this as to not clog up ot community

We could obviously play on outer gafia. But instead let's not
 

RetroMG

Member
I was under the impression we do this as to not clog up ot community

We could obviously play on outer gafia. But instead let's not

Tim, at some point I'd love to hear what I can do to make Outer Gafia better.

Edit: Or from anyone. We don't need to clog this thread with it either, you can just PM me
 

Sorian

Banned
I was under the impression we do this as to not clog up ot community

We could obviously play on outer gafia. But instead let's not

No mods or admins have had any issue with our current output and they do keep tabs on us, if it ever becomes an issue someone will let us know but as of now, our only limiting variable is pure player numbers.
 

CzarTim

Member
Oh I was just joshing, no offense meant.

But ultimately we are a neogaf community. OG is great for scum threads and design threads, but people here probably check neogaf proper more often. I feel like our focus should be making the best experience here rather than splinter completely to a separate place.

Edit: good to know sor
 
Hi

So, uh, firstly, I think everyone knows that there are girls who have been in the community and have been playing. Swampie, Stackpole, Scrafty, Sawneeks, Starsketch, Sophia.... just to name the "S"es.... (I try to infiltrate this group with my Discord nick :3 to some degree of success)

My point is, GAFia has not lost the right to play with girls. I ... I just signed up to my third mafia game, in fact. (lol)

Right, so, basically what happened yesterday was that I received some feedback from some girls in GirlGAF that made me sad because I felt if we had known about their pain, we'd move mountains as a community. Cuz I've only been treated with the nicest possible gloves.

Certainly, i think i managed to befriend Darryl and Squidy whilst I befriend Sophia and Sketch. Sophia tried to leave 3 times (and "when she thought she was out, a spider roped her back in" lol) and Sketch had a difficult first times and I sent her hugs and good-vibes PMs and I am glad to see that both of them have integrated well into the community now :>

I admit I had gotten a little slack on that standards that I set for myself. I should have kept them in Season 6, but i didn't. I didn't pay enough attention to Bloodborne so I didn't send those reach outs and I feel a little disappointed in myself.

But like CzarTim pointed out, it's not a walk in the park, being moderators and overseers are tough... and I do have a threshold.

HOWEVER!


It's not all gloom and doom :> Finding we have problems means we can WORK ON THEM~

Sophia has volunteered to step up with regards to providing a more proactive approach to players who seems a little struggling and Retro and Kark (and Blarg) are working on a new guideline, and most of us are incredibly desirous to make sure that we do better :>

So, tl;dr I think we're tackling this issue and you all owe me $5 each.

Also, I agree with Roy, maybe if in-game players can make posts with double brackets for RLsies, the other participants can check themselves out of the things being announced as a real issue.

(( I have a meeting I dont wanna go to in 15 minutes ; __ ; ))

...

Might be back with some more stuff later, but for now I just want you guys to know that you're all awesome by me :>

Except maybe Ourobolaus. He ruined my reputation >:C
 

RetroMG

Member
Oh I was just joshing, no offense meant.

But ultimately we are a neogaf community. OG is great for scum threads and design threads, but people here probably check neogaf proper more often. I feel like our focus should be making the best experience here rather than splinter completely to a separate place.

Edit: good to know sor

No worries. Someone earlier said that they don't like OG. I thought it was you, maybe it wasn't. I meant to go back and ask them what could be made better.

Earlier this year I started working on Outer Gafia 2.0, but that project is currently on hold outside of a small side project connected to it.

But overall, I agree that GAF is home, not OG.
 
Two times. Once after Werewolf 1 and once after Final Fantasy. ;p
You tried not to come back once too!!! I sought you in your hidey hole lair that is persona irc and I sweet talked you back to our bosom!

MWAHAHAHAHAHA

I basically remember going to persona irc a few times...lol
 

Sophia

Member
YNNNY lives in all timelines at once. Let's just saying season 12 is going to be a doozy.

I want to say "I wonder if there'd be interest in a new generic Werewolf game for new players..." but then I remember how crazy intense Werewolf 1's only Day actually was and yeaaah.... XD

You tried not to come back once too!!! I sought you in your hidey hole lair that is persona irc and I sweet talked you back to our bosom!

MWAHAHAHAHAHA

If I recall right, you talked to me after Werewolf 1 (TY <3) and then you and Crimson were like "Why are you not playing Love Boat? It's perfect for you!" >_>;
 
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