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[An-Det]

Reflector Mage seems super late, and no Cat lady ban. Weird.

Also, on mobile, so does anyone have the link to that grand prix attendance report that kirblar posted in the last thread? People in my chat are confused on why I'm adamant it's true.

 

[Santiako]

Here is the reasoning:

We banned three cards in Standard—Smuggler's Copter; Emrakul, the Promised End; and Reflector Mage—to improve and diversify the Standard environment. These changes were driven by play data that demonstrated an imbalance in Standard as well as anecdotal evidence that players found these specific cards to limit their ability to stay competitive with creative, fun, diverse decks. Let's look at these card by card.

Emrakul, the Promised End—Created to be scarily powerful, Emrakul, the Promised End delivered on that promise too well. Emrakul faced too little resistance and ended games too easily. She was the world-ending, all-powerful monster she was in the story, which was too much for Standard.
Smuggler's Copter—Simply put, Smuggler's Copter is too efficient and shows up in too many decks, diminishing the format's diversity. We want Planeswalkers, sorcery-speed removal, and a variety of vehicles to be viable options, and believe removing Smuggler's Copter will allow them to flourish again. Of the top archetypes in Standard, very few didn't play four copies of Smuggler's Copter, stifling many creative, fun options. Smuggler's Copter was the result of a new card type pushed too far, and, as such, is now banned.
Reflector Mage—Our data showed the White-Blue Flash deck was too powerful against the field, and Reflector Mage has been on players' lists of most-disliked cards since the days of Collected Company. Other cards were discussed to check White-Blue Flash, but Reflector Mage came up time and time again as both frustrating and a targeted way to diminish the White-Blue Flash deck.

Third, in Modern we banned Gitaxian Probe and Golgari Grave-Troll.

Gitaxian Probe—Gitaxian Probe increased the number of third-turn kills in a few ways, but particularly by giving perfect information (and a card) to decks that often have to make strategic decisions about going "all-in." This hurt the ability of reactive decks to effectively bluff or for the aggressive deck to miss-sequence their turn. Ultimately, the card did too much for too little cost.
Golgari Grave-Troll—Dredge, the mechanic and the deck, has a negative impact on Modern by pushing the format too far toward a battle of sideboards. With the printing of Cathartic Reunion and Prized Amalgam, the deck once again became unhealthy for the format. While those cards were discussed, the real offender always has been the dredge mechanic itself.

 

[Bandini]

Probe banned? RIP my Jeskai Pyromancer deck. Looks like it's back to Nahiri control.

 

[Angry Grimace]

So...uh...what deck is left to stop Copy Cat?

Nothing. The deck is unbeatable.

 

[Wulfric]

That ban is so unexpected. Why Probe though? Blue isn't that big in modern.

Emrakul kinda makes sense, but Smuggler's Copter does not. First ban since cawblade, and it includes freaking Reflector Mage over Spell Queller. Wow...

They just smothered a whole deck in it's sleep.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Yep done with standard until it's banned. Not interested in joining Cat Lady and really not interested in facing it.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Git Probe is one of those quietly stupidly powerful cards. I never thought they would actually ban it though.

 

[kirblar]

Nothing. The deck is unbeatable.

The new mid-season ban seems explicitly targeted at it.

 

[Santiako]

This may have been lost on the bottom of the page:

Banned and Restricted announcements will now be made both on the Monday after Standard-legal set Prereleases and five weeks after a Pro Tour, also on a Monday.

We're making this change to give us, as well as the player community, greater flexibility in keeping organized play healthy and fun. We recognize that Pro Tour play, which is most directly informed by the announcement timeframe, represents a small fraction of Magic play. The play that is most affected by formats becoming imbalanced is the kind that happens between announcements—Friday Night Magic, Grand Prix, local tournaments, Magic Online events, Pro Tour Qualifying tournaments, or even just friends playing at home adhering to format rules.

So, in order to best serve the majority of Magic players, we're adding the mid-set window to ensure play experiences at those myriad events are the best they can be.

We do not expect this to lead to an increase in the number of cards banned or restricted (or unbanned or unrestricted), but the greater flexibility will allow us to address play issues more quickly.

We're making all of these changes because we believe they will help keep Standard healthy, diverse, and, most importantly, fun. Aether Revolt is packed with new, interesting cards that you'll want to try out in this refreshed, open environment. Get your first look at them this weekend at a Prerelease near you.

So now they'll be doing twice as many B&R announcements, expect your copy cat ban then.

 

[Llyrwenne]

So they're not banning the Saheeli Cat instant-win combo?
And what even is the point of banning Reflector Mage at this point?
Also was there some major issue with Gitaxian Probe in Modern I missed?

I'm extremely confused at recent decisions by Wizards, and I don't even actually play that much anymore...

 

[LuciusAxelrod]

They say they're banning Smuggler's Copter because they want sorcery-speed removal to be good, but the leave alone the creature that can instantly win the game for you the turn it's played. Okay.

 

[charlequin]

Okay I'm legit confused that they did this and left the cat out of it. Props to the ballsy person who bought in the face the ban rumors on Saheeli, lol.

Also: not really clear on what Reflector Mage is supposed to be accomplishing there? Is it just to make sure they don't accidentally make an all-UW format when the dust settles?

Also also: Emrakul now officially the single worst reputation legendary character of all time as the only one with two cards, each of which is banned in at least one format.

 

[Firemind]

We want Planeswalkers, sorcery-speed removal, and a variety of vehicles to be viable options

There's your problem.

 

[kirblar]

They say they're banning Smuggler's Copter because they want sorcery-speed removal to be good, but the leave alone the creature that can instantly win the game for you the turn it's played. Okay.

If Cat Lady is too good, we'll know fast. (And yes, it's probably too good.)

This is better than pre-emptively doing it, because otherwise the "IT WOULDA BEEN FINE" crowd would never f'n shut up about it.

Mage is a safety valve ban to avoid all UW yeah

 

[Bandini]

So they're not banning the Saheeli Cat instant-win combo?
And what even is the point of banning Reflector Mage at this point?
Also was there some major issue with Gitaxian Probe in Modern I missed?

I'm extremely confused at recent decisions by Wizards, and I don't even actually play that much anymore...

They're banning Probe mostly because of the TitI / Kiln Fiend aggro deck that's been tearing up MTGO, I'm guessing.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

They say they're banning Smuggler's Copter because they want sorcery-speed removal to be good, but the leave alone the creature that can instantly win the game for you the turn it's played. Okay.

I was just about to post that, makes zero sense. Sorcery speed removal is dead, or at least sideboard only, because of Copy Cat.

Also was there some major issue with Gitaxian Probe in Modern I missed?

Yes it has always been a stupid card that allowed for some degenerate shit.

 

[GregLombardi]

I do think it is important to let a standard format play out for a bit before one concludes that a combo is simply too good. The combo LOOKS like it is too good, but the format may not support it as well as it seems.

 

[Infinite Stars]

Well, it's nice to see I wasn't wrong regarding Gravetroll getting rebanned. Someone must have egg on the face at WotC.

So they're not banning the Saheeli Cat instant-win combo?
And what even is the point of banning Reflector Mage at this point?
Also was there some major issue with Gitaxian Probe in Modern I missed?

I'm extremely confused at recent decisions by Wizards, and I don't even actually play that much anymore...

Cat Combo is probably on the axe for next ban if it's anywhere near as strong as it looks.

Reflector Mage still is a pain in the ass even with no CoCo

Git Probe allowed for Bloocide to effectively run a 52 card deck in combination with Manamorphos.

 

[Llyrwenne]

They're banning Probe mostly because of the TitI / Kiln Fiend aggro deck that's been tearing up MTGO, I'm guessing.

Yes it has always been a stupid card that allowed for some degenerate shit.

Ah, I see. The timing just seems random as it has been around for quite a while now and I wasn't aware of any new decks suddenly popping up and abusing it in an unexpected way or anything. That's on me for not playing frequently / following the format though.

 

[SigmasonicX]

Not what I expected. Maybe Amonkhet doesn't have graveyard hate.

EDIT: Or even if it does, the wait will damage Standard's reputation too much.

 

[bigkrev]

They're banning Probe mostly because of the TitI / Kiln Fiend aggro deck that's been tearing up MTGO, I'm guessing.

It's a card in the 2 fastest deck, Suicide Zoo and Infect. It powers Become Immense, and it gives you information to know if you should go for the kill

It also hurts non-existent Storm Decks, cause WOTC hates us

 

[kirblar]

Not what I expected. Maybe Amonkhet doesn't have graveyard hate.

You already know it doesn't.

Kibler complaining about bans in a game he doesn't play or follow outside of PTs is ridiculous.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Huey says there was some kind of broken Reflector Mage deck that his team had figured out.

 

[Santiako]

Huey says there was some kind of broken Reflector Mage deck that his team had figured out.

It slots right into the copycat deck, and you can even blink it with the cat for maximum annoyance.

 

[Joe Molotov]

I do think it is important to let a standard format play out for a bit before one concludes that a combo is simply too good. The combo LOOKS like it is too good, but the format may not support it as well as it seems.

I would agree with you if Standard wasn't already shit now, and having Wizards say "okay, well we know this looks shitty, but just wait 3 more months to see if it's not as shit as it looks" just feels bad.

 

[Jhriad]

Standard:

Emrakul, the Promised End is banned.

Smuggler's Copter is banned.

Reflector Mage is banned.

Modern:

Gitaxian Probe is banned.

Golgari Grave-Troll is banned.

But seriously, that was a lot more than I expected. Did they just do this early to give the Pro Tour players more time to brew then? Good to see they were willing to admit their mistake with GGT and re-ban it.

Banned and Restricted announcements will now be made both on the Monday after Standard-legal set Prereleases and five weeks after a Pro Tour, also on a Monday.

Slower set rotation and sets not designed to be in the same environment as one another in addition to dropping attendance must really have them worried. Honestly with all the attendance chatter and whatnot I'm a little worried we've already passed the zenith of the game and it's just a slow roll down from here.

 

[charlequin]

Yeah, I missed on my first reply that they were adding the mid-season announcements. Obviously I'm in favor of this since I've been advocating they do it for over a year, lol.

Overall, given that information, I think this is a good announcement. Takes the problems with Standard seriously, nukes the biggest troublemakers, and gives us the ability to take care of Cat well before Amonkhet. Modern changes also seem solid given the issues in the format there.

Also was there some major issue with Gitaxian Probe in Modern I missed?

It's a stupid-ass card that just does all kinds of unpleasant things to make combo decks better. It's kind of in the SSG category of "why even have this" IMO.

This is better than pre-emptively doing it, because otherwise the "IT WOULDA BEEN FINE" crowd would never f'n shut up about it.

Yep, it lets people try to tech hate it out for the Pro Tour and then dumps it before it ruins a whole season. Safer choice. I'm confident this was the proximate impetus for the change though.

 

[GregLombardi]

But seriously, that was a lot more than I expected. Did they just do this early to give the Pro Tour players more time to brew then? Good to see they were willing to admit their mistake with GGT and re-ban it.



Slower set rotation and sets not designed to be in the same environment as one another in addition to dropping attendance must really have them worried. Honestly with all the attendance chatter and whatnot I'm a little worried we've already passed the zenith of the game and it's just a slow roll down from here.

after 25 years people are still saying magic will die? hahaha

 

[duxstar]

I do think it is important to let a standard format play out for a bit before one concludes that a combo is simply too good. The combo LOOKS like it is too good, but the format may not support it as well as it seems.

The combo is too good, do you not realize that im not winning with 30 cards in my 75 dedicated to stopping just that combo ?

Warping Wail, Thalia, Thought-knot seer, Eldrazi Displacers, Stasis Snare as 4 ofs in the main, with 4x authority of the council, 2x commencement of festivities, and 2 blossoming defense in the side to protect Thalia.

Oh and for the record good luck getting anything down after turn 3. If the board is clear on turn 3, they just play saheeli and up tick her to 4. From then on its on the onus of the other player to keep up instead speed removal for the rest of the match, While pressuring a 4 loyalty planeswalker with your 2 drop. They literally force you to have removal in the first 10 cards, and most the time it's 2 or 3 pieces.

You have to hit Saheeli for 3 with your 1 or 2 drop to prevent the combo, and i was using smugglers copters in my deck to fight those decks and that just got banned. Such a fucking joke wizards

 

[aidan]

You have to think, with the banning of Copter and Reflector Mage, both of which, if I recall correctly, WotC admitted were pushed/changed at the last minute, and/or not tested for Standard, this announcement indicates that they're changing the way they test cards.

 

[GregLombardi]

The combo is too good, do you not realize that im not winning with 30 cards in my 75 dedicated to stopping just that combo ?

Good to know for sure. It will be taken out if it is as prolific as you suggest.

 

[McNum]

I'll admit it's been a few years since I played Magic, but the Copy Cat combo seems like it has a weakness to me. But I might be misremembering a rule here.

Do you not have the option to react to any activated ability? So when the Felidar Guardian copy arrives and uses it's flicker ability, you can play an Instant, like, say... Shock and target Saheeli? Boom, no more Planeswalker. The flicker then fails due to no target.

I mean if you have no direct damage or removal, then yeah. Defeat by infinite kitties, but if you do, can't you interrupt the chain?

 

[Infinite Stars]

Fun fact about the next Ban: It's 4 Days before MM2017 comes out, and is roughly 3-4 weeks after the Modern GP Weekend.

If we do get Modern Unbans, it's going to be then.

I'll admit it's been a few years since I played Magic, but the Copy Cat combo seems like it has a weakness to me. But I might be misremembering a rule here.

Do you not have the option to react to any activated ability? So when the Felidar Guardian copy arrives and uses it's flicker ability, you can play an Instant, like, say... Shock and target Saheeli? Boom, no more Planeswalker. The flicker then fails due to no target.

I mean if you have no direct damage or removal, then yeah. Defeat by infinite kitties, but if you do, can't you interrupt the chain?

Yeah, you can interact.

The problem is, the combo naturally slots in Jeskai Desks, in a format where any instant speed removal can be countered by Dispel.

So in other words, you effectively need at least 2 cards to stop the combo.

 

[MoxManiac]

Should have dumped my copters on MTGO yesterday. Almost did. Now all the bots have reacted already and its worthless. Fuck, I was going to put it towards a redeemable set. Fuck this shit.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

You have to hit Saheeli for 3 with your 1 or 2 drop to prevent the combo, and i was using smugglers copters in my deck to fight those decks and that just got banned. Such a fucking joke wizards

This makes it so weird, banning copter both makes the combo better and worse. A ref mage ban is a straight nerf to it though imo.
All in all it should at least kill the tempo shell of Copy Cat.

Good to know for sure. It will be taken out if it is as prolific as you suggest.

In 3 months!

 

[MoxManiac]

I hate Wizards. I hate how stupid they are. I was waiting on getting a Saheeli Rai on MTGO for a redeemed set because I thought they had at least half a brain and would do something about the combo. But they have demonstrated just how stupid they really are. Christ.

 

[Firemind]

I hate Wizards. I hate how stupid they are. I was waiting on getting a Saheeli Rai on MTGO for a redeemed set because I thought they had at least half a brain and would do something about the combo. But they have demonstrated just how stupid they really are. Christ.

Should have gotten it when it was still one tick.

 

[Supast4r]

If Cat Lady is too good, we'll know fast. (And yes, it's probably too good.)

This is better than pre-emptively doing it, because otherwise the "IT WOULDA BEEN FINE" crowd would never f'n shut up about it.

Mage is a safety valve ban to avoid all UW yeah

Spell queller makes more sense to ban than Mage does. Queller literally forces decks to want to play 5 drops.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Good to know for sure. It will be taken out if it is as prolific as you suggest.

It's not a beatable deck.

 

[MoxManiac]

I guess the silver lining is maybe I can get a cheap Golgari Grave Troll and Emrakul for Commander usage?

 

[LuciusAxelrod]

Not what I expected. Maybe Amonkhet doesn't have graveyard hate.

EDIT: Or even if it does, the wait will damage Standard's reputation too much.

"We want graveyard strategies to be good, so we didn't put in any graveyard hate." - Future WotC

You have to hit Saheeli for 3 with your 1 or 2 drop to prevent the combo, and i was using smugglers copters in my deck to fight those decks and that just got banned. Such a fucking joke wizards

Wouldn't 4 damage be needed to stop it? The initial cat still blinks something, so you don't need Saheeli to be anything more than alive. Maybe I'm missing something, I haven't played with the new cards yet.

 

[duxstar]

I'll admit it's been a few years since I played Magic, but the Copy Cat combo seems like it has a weakness to me. But I might be misremembering a rule here.

Do you not have the option to react to any activated ability? So when the Felidar Guardian copy arrives and uses it's flicker ability, you can play an Instant, like, say... Shock and target Saheeli? Boom, no more Planeswalker. The flicker then fails due to no target.

I mean if you have no direct damage or removal, then yeah. Defeat by infinite

kitties, but if you do, can't you interrupt the chain?

You've been away for a long time, the amount of instant speed removal spells and burn to the face are incredibly low. The fact that it's a 1/4 4 cmc creature keeps it from being hit from alot of the best instants.

Skywhalers Shot misses it, Fatal Push misses it, Harnessed lightning misses killing it, shock can hit saheeli sure but they still get a 1/4 )and she goes to 1 loyalty. How many times is an opponent (on the draw) going to pressure saheeli with what the play in the first 2 turns ?

 

[Santiako]

I guess the silver lining is maybe I can get a cheap Golgari Grave Troll and Emrakul for Commander usage?

Emrakul has already plummeted in price to 4.8€ in mkm and still dropping, and GGT is already 2.5€ lol

 

[Jhriad]

That ban is so unexpected. Why Probe though? Blue isn't that big in modern.

Probe is effectively colorless for a number of decks since you don't actually use mana to pay for it. Suicide Zoo used it to pump Death's Shadow while gaining information as well as replacing itself. Infect used it to make sure they had enough pump/answers in hand. It had combination of those effects in the UR Prowess decks. It gave you all the information you needed while effectively thinning your deck so long as you had a fast enough clock that the two life didn't matter.

after 25 years people are still saying magic will die? hahaha

Death and decline are two entirely different things. Hell, if Legend of the Five Rings is still around Magic certainly won't be going away anytime soon. I am worried about the overall health of the game though. In part because I recognize that any significant weakening in market confidence on a broader scale would effectively create a rush of people attempting to unload on the secondary market. Maybe I'm unnecessarily worried just because I've had a couple LGS' shutter nearby. *shrug*

 

[Ashodin]

Hahaha

Smug cop

Heart of Kiran <3

 

[Firemind]

Yeah I remember Splinter Twin at least got Spellskite and Dismember as hate cards and they were available to every deck.

 

[McNum]

Yeah, you can interact.

The problem is, the combo naturally slots in Jeskai Desks, in a format where any instant speed removal can be countered by Dispel.

So in other words, you effectively need at least 2 cards to stop the combo.

Oh, right. Blue. And this is why Blue can't have nice things. Because Blue is very good at countering any counters to its nice things.

But that still means that it delays the combo because you can't dispel with all your Lands tapped. It's not ideal at all, of course.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Heart of Kiran and or the 3 drop vehicle can replace copter and Veteran motorist can be used to help dig for the combo now.

 

[RuinerPrime]

I actually like these bans. I stop playing standard because of how unfun it became. hated going up against u/w flash.

 

[Wichu]

I sat out this Standard season, so I guess this makes the choice of what to build next much easier.

Jeskai flicker rip Reflector Mage and Saheeli's affordability
Bant flicker rip Reflector Mage
some sort of UG delirium rip Emrakul
Grixis control
Esper artifacts rip Copter

Bonus: has game against cats.