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Mainstream is not good
- Thread starter C4Lukins
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AdmiralViscen said:
Excellent post, as always. But I'm sure most people still adamant with their own fears will still ignore it.
Also, the funny thing is (as you mentioned already) with the DS, everyone was bitching about the non-games/pet sims, but now it has one of the most amazing libraries (for the 'hardcore' even) ever, hardly anyone sane would insult it anymore.
Also, how did these mainstream haters react when stuff like GTA came out? Or Tetris? Tetris didn't kill the industry, and that's about as simple as you can get. There will always be an audience for the 'hardcore'.
The Take Out Bandit
Member
C4Lukins said:
I dunno.
While I agree there's nothing on the Wii I would go out of my way to play, and trust me I considered buying one when I saw them in stock and modding it, but I wouldn't even pirate Wii games. :\
What I find most engaging about the Wii in theory, is that it's going back to making games fun to play, which has very little to do with a waggle wand IMO; and everything to do with simplified game mechanics and short game experiences.
I'm sick and f@cking tired of Hideous Kojima, Jade Raymond, and every other douchebag frustrated film maker that got stuck making video games because Michael Bay stole their jerb.
I'm not saying there's not a place for games with story, or that require excess of two hours to beat; but it seems the game industry has become fixated on that, and it in turn is ruining gaming for me.
Which is why I'm so looking forward to Warhawk. Press start > Blow shit up! WIN!
Look on the bright side, video game fans still have it better than comic nerds.
Karma Kramer
Banned
Oblivion said:
Its the input device that I am scared of and the intentions of that device. The intentions of the Wii remote is to simply attract non-gamers. I have seen no evidence so far that the Wii remote is a superior controller for the experienced gamer... sure some games like party games, point and click games, and maybe platformers (Mario Galaxy).. benefit from a controller similar to the wii remote... but the majority of games aren't as accessible or easy as a standard analog controller.
The future of gaming lies precisely in the hands of Microsoft and Sony and whether or not they decide to focus on stealing Nintendo marketshare... or if they decide to continue doing what they have been doing.
If they chose to go after the Wii marketshare a few things will be required of their next console.
1) It will have to be cheap
2) Graphics will no longer be of importance
3) They will design and use a Wii style controller
If this is what Sony and Microsoft decide to do.. then essentially they will be ignoring the traditional gamers who have become acustom to traditional input devices and instead will now be focused on appealing to the Wii audience.
To compete with the Wii they will have to provide simplistic casual games like Wii Fit and Wii Sports.
Sure us hardcore gamers will still get our hardcore RPG's and FPS's but at least in my opinion because the input device has been changed... those games will no longer have the appeal they once had.
The problem I have with the Wii-remote is it is taking a very natural evolutionary design and radically changing it... The reason why it was radical changed? Was not to benefit those who have become accustom to the traditional controller but to entice new gamers into the market.
I personally hope the industry continues to evolve and head in the direction of say Bioshock... because that is the type of direction that really excites me.
PkunkFury
Member
Karma Kramer said:
I personally hope it spreads in every direction it can, as it is right now, so I'm never stuck playing the same idea over and over...
this needs to be quoted over and over. As someone who's been playing games since Atari, I couldn't be hapier that some companies (not just Nintnedo, I'm talking XBLA, PSN, etc.) are getting back to basics
Epiphyte said:
and you could grind one handed, while eating a f*cking hamburger. I don't understand why anyone ever complains about RPGs on the Wii. They only need one button!
kame-sennin
Member
Karma Kramer said:
It won't. If Wii Sports/Wii Fit/Brain age appealed primarily to the 15-35 yr old male demographic, i.e. the core gaming demographic, then yes, there would be a cataclysmic shift. Like the PS1 era*, a new wave of game genres would rise, and the old genres would be almost completely replaced (thank science for handhelds). However, games like Wii Fit do not specifically focus on those that already play games. Instead, it is geared towards people who don't play games and thus expands the market instead of changing it. Yes, foolish developers will dive into these new markets head first, but they'll soon realize that even the expanded audience doesn't provide unlimited sales. When these new markets become saturated, publishers will fall back on the core demographics.
*I know a lot of people have stated that the PS1 expanded the market, but I would argue that any expansion is due to population growth alone. AFAIK, gaming hasn't the passed 35% household penetration mark, which was achieved by the NES. There was a shift in marketing towards older gamers, but I think that has more to do with Sony trying to appeal to NES gamers who were growing into teenagers and adults.
Karma Kramer
Banned
Epiphyte said:
Depends on the RPG... if its turn-based then sure.. but an action RPG like Mass Effect, Oblivion, ect will be worse with the Wii remote.
Also can you imagine a game like DMC or Ninja Gaiden with the Wii remote?
Karma Kramer said:
So basically, you don't deal well with change. Gotcha. I'm sorry that you can't see any of the potential of the Wii control scheme but are you really going to tell me that it didn't improve the experience for RE4, Zelda, or even Godfather? You can't see the potential but that doesn't mean it isn't there. In addition, even Nintendo knows that the new controller isn't perfect for everything, that is why they have so many other controller options in games like SSB. All this doom and gloom talk for no reason.
Karma Kramer said:
That just is not true. All gamers appreciate good graphics; the difference between you and the majority of the gaming public is that they want the most powerful machine that they can get for a reasonable price. If I have to wait a little longer to have a sweet HD console, thats fine with me. Did all the old PS2 games all of the sudden become complete crap once the new consoles came out? No, they are still fun which in the end is all that really matters.
Karma Kramer
Banned
All of you who are excited about the Wii success... sell your 360/PS3 and only use/buy a Wii.
Hope you are satisfied.
Hope you are satisfied.
Karma Kramer said:
Question: Why is what you want more important than what, say, I want? If I wanted the Wii to sell a bajillion units and for the 360/PS3 to fall off the face of the earth (hypothetically speaking), what would you tell me to convince me that your point of view is the correct one. You can't, and you know it. Yet you complain anyway.
This whole topic boils down to 'wah wah wah I want people to only make games I want to play wah wah wah.' On the plus side it gives plenty of people here the chance to refine their ignore lists.
aktham said:
Just like last generation. And the generation before... and the generation before that... and the generation before that... see where I'm going with this?
This is basically my take as well. I could do without motion control, but the ideas behind Wii are in the right place. VC is also a breath of fresh air, loaded up with space shooters, beat-em-ups, and quick platformers. Even 360 and PS3 are getting in on it to some extent, with games like Geometry Wars and Super Stardust HD that are pushing us back in the right direction. Now if only the systems weren't $350+ each I'd be able to jump in.The Take Out Bandit said:
PkunkFury
Member
aktham said:
and how is this different than last generation? There have always been bad games that sell and good games that flop. Plus calling something like Wii Sports or Brain Age a crappy game is disingenuous. They may not be games you want to play, but they are very good at what they were designed for. We aren't talking Enter the Matrix here.
In an ideal world, the people who are mistakenly buying these shitty licensed games because they don't know which games are worth playing, will pick up games that can actually entertain them instead. The "core" gamers are only affected by an increase in variety of what they have available to play. So far this generation is a win for everyone
Karma Kramer
Banned
jman2050 said:
I want a split marketshare...
I want choice
I want Nintendo to keep doing their own thing
I want Sony to keep doing their own thing
I want Microsoft to keep doing their own thing
I don't mind the Wii... in fact I might eventually buy one... for Mario Galaxy... but I want my traditional games and my wii games.
Karma Kramer
Banned
PkunkFury said:
look at my post above...
I see Xbox 360 and PS3 as hardcore style consoles... and the wii as mainstream style... I am fine with both co-existing... in fact I prefer both co-existing.
And I would be just as upset if the Wii was a failure.
The Take Out Bandit
Member
Neo C. said:Comic nerds just move to manga: great diversity and quiet cheap.
I like US-Comics and Bandes Dessinées but only manga are affordable, IMO.
No, my point is video games are more socially acceptable in modern America than comic books. Simple fact. Video games are not relegated in the popular opinion to "a children's entertainment medium".
Jiggy37 said:
I wouldn't commend VC as it's not doing anything new.
I guess if you were born in the 1990's you could play catch-up on all the games you've never seen before, but really - TG-16 games via emulation are still TG-16 games I played back when they were new.
All this downloadable crap will be justified once more original content comes out to fill the void.
Hell, look at TMNT on the GBA. Great f'ing game that harkens back to the beat'em ups and Konami coin-ops of my high school days. We need more of this, and less of the stuff I've played to death already.
Well, playing catch up is pretty much what I've been doing--not because I was born in the 90s, but because I didn't know anyone who owned a TG16 (never even heard of it, even), and nobody who owned a Genesis (crazy, I know) until like 1999.The Take Out Bandit said:
But I can agree that even the old games I haven't played are making up a well that's eventually going to go dry, and certainly I agree that we need more new classic-style games in the future. They're nowhere to be found lately.
The Take Out Bandit said:
There's plenty of old games that I don't play only and simply because it's not convenient for me to do so (hooking up consoles, having carts around etc) and the Wii makes it possible to me to continue playing those games.
I still play regularly mario kart 64 battle mode with my wife because it still rocks like when we were playing it on the N64. And bomberman and so on and so forth.
RubberJohnny
Banned
Guys, what is Full House?
The Take Out Bandit
Member
maxmars said:
And again, ignoring the fact that they've (old consoles) existed in the past, there are even more convenient means of playing old games; and there has been for years.
One of my favorite things is playing arcade classics (not the dumbed down NES, etc. versions) via MAME on my PS3 using Linux. :X
Karma Kramer said:
Question..what has Bioshock done other than fine tune aspects of gaming thats already existed. Bioshock is a very very well made game and goes to prove that an enjoyable game relies on its developers. You also seem to forget that just because Nintendo has introduced a new controller doesn't mean they are throwing away a control style they helped introduce years ago... look at Smash Bros Brawl or look at New super mario bros.
BlackTyrano
Member
The amount of tunnel vision in this thread is headache-inducing. The best part about Wii is that it will eventually eliminate the faux-hardcore mindset either by alienating the idiots to the point that they finally quit forum-whoring game forums or proving that Wii games are just as good as any other type. I can't wait
RiskyChris
Banned
Karma Kramer said:
This is the stupidest thing I've read all week.
UNGROWN MEN THREATENED BY A TOY COMPANY
Do people not have any concept of the history of their hobby WHATSOEVER?
Before it was "Let's be iPod." it was "Let's be Hollywood"(As TToB mentioned). The industry sold itself out to he mainstream a long time ago. Newsflash: Kojima = appeal to Hollywood. Hollywood is mainstream. He is not hardcore. FF7 was an exception to the rule at the time. Cinematics were not liked by the hardcore. FF7 opened the door. Kojima fucked the door wide open. Guitar Hero and DDR opened a door, Wii fucked the door wide open.
For as long as I've been on GAF, I've always been amazed at how people I know and have seen use their brains in the OT, automatically turn that brain off when they enter the gaming forum. If you just use that thingie in your skull, you realize Nintendo hasn't done anything that Sony hasn't already done and you haven't already been a happy, willing participant of. If you all really cared soooo much about gaming, you wouldn't have bought your cinematic failedfilmschool pushbuttonxenotwatware.... but you did buy that stuff didn't you? You bought the new epic FPS, that didn't really push gameplay or genre in any new direction, but sure did look like Saving Private Ryan! Well guess what kids? You were selling out to the mainstream! Congahgiddeygrats!
You're all guilty of your own persecution. So guilty of it that whenever any of you cry about it, I can no longer laugh, but have to get shitfaced drunk to keep browsing the forum in a tolerable state.
Do people not have any concept of the history of their hobby WHATSOEVER?
Before it was "Let's be iPod." it was "Let's be Hollywood"(As TToB mentioned). The industry sold itself out to he mainstream a long time ago. Newsflash: Kojima = appeal to Hollywood. Hollywood is mainstream. He is not hardcore. FF7 was an exception to the rule at the time. Cinematics were not liked by the hardcore. FF7 opened the door. Kojima fucked the door wide open. Guitar Hero and DDR opened a door, Wii fucked the door wide open.
For as long as I've been on GAF, I've always been amazed at how people I know and have seen use their brains in the OT, automatically turn that brain off when they enter the gaming forum. If you just use that thingie in your skull, you realize Nintendo hasn't done anything that Sony hasn't already done and you haven't already been a happy, willing participant of. If you all really cared soooo much about gaming, you wouldn't have bought your cinematic failedfilmschool pushbuttonxenotwatware.... but you did buy that stuff didn't you? You bought the new epic FPS, that didn't really push gameplay or genre in any new direction, but sure did look like Saving Private Ryan! Well guess what kids? You were selling out to the mainstream! Congahgiddeygrats!
You're all guilty of your own persecution. So guilty of it that whenever any of you cry about it, I can no longer laugh, but have to get shitfaced drunk to keep browsing the forum in a tolerable state.
RiskyChris
Banned
etiolate said:
It's like NeoGAF is the X-Files and this post was the series finale.
zbarron said:
It didn't.
As long as there's a market for something, someone's going to be making it. 2D games were in a decline anyway because people really wanted something new at the time, but they were never killed off by FMVfests; while there may have been a period where there was a development glut of those long-loading FMV-heavy 3D games, there's always going to be those trends (whether it's FMVfests or FPSes or training games or now minigame compilations) where everyone rides the current trend to its death, but if you look below the surface there's a counterculture developing plenty of other stuff. If we want to talk about 2D specifically, it's especially unwise to say that's dead seeing as the past two years have been bringing it back in a big way.
Mariah Carey
Member
kame-sennin said:
Wish you there there in that "videogame milestones" thread. Yeah, I don't believe the PS really made videogaming much more 'mainstream' than it was. It focused more on twenty-year olds and finally broke console gaming into Europe (which are both notable in and of themselves), but I think its move away from families was actually a move away from the mainstream.
nicks are so impersonal
Neo Member
Don't waste your time complaining about non-gamers, casual gamers, mainstream... whatever.
I think there are more "hardcore" games in the market than I could play in 100 years... and games like Bioshock, Halo or Shin Megami Tensei are not going to dissappear from he market soon... so it's all good.
I think there are more "hardcore" games in the market than I could play in 100 years... and games like Bioshock, Halo or Shin Megami Tensei are not going to dissappear from he market soon... so it's all good.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I swear, this guy has GOT to be C411.
Like everyone's said, gaming didn't enter the mainstream because of the Wii, we've been in the mainstream ever since the PSX - the thread creator's pretty much whining about WHICH mainstream audience has been brought in.
Like everyone's said, gaming didn't enter the mainstream because of the Wii, we've been in the mainstream ever since the PSX - the thread creator's pretty much whining about WHICH mainstream audience has been brought in.
Galactic Fork
A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
Karma Kramer said:
Ok, what separates the ps360 and the wii? Is it just the power? Does that mean all games before them are suddenly casual because they can't match the hardware? Control-wise, there is nothing the ps3 and 360 can do that the wii can't. The Wii isn't limited to waggling.
Look at Elebits, really good First person controls, great precise pointer aiming. Then you have the added ability of pushing pulling and twisting the item you're holding in mid air. Think of the wii mote itself as an extra analog device you didn't have before, same with the nunchuck.
You have decided that wiimote=casual, but have you really thought about it? I'm not a huge fan of WiiSports or "gesture waggle", but I have to admit it does some things well. Both tennis and bowling acurately read the angle and twist of your hand movements to affect the way the ball moves after hitting or rolling it. I do about as well in wii bowling as i do in real life. Are you honestly saying that kind of input is completely useless to "hardcore" gamers and should just be ignored?
Forgotten Ancient
Banned
This is pathetic.
Night_Trekker
Member
Forgotten Ancient said:
.
BishopLamont
Banned
Karma Kramer said:
I'm beyond satisfied knowing it kills you inside.
Mariah Carey
Member
Karma Kramer said:
I don't have a 360 or PS3...?
Ghengis Cohen
Banned
If mainstream means watered down overly simplistic control schemes and lack of depth than, yes it does suck. If it means cinematic aspects to games with solid (see: deep) gameplay, than that is fine with me.
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