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[Dead Man]

Well, I think you should call yourself a feminist to counteract that impression.

This is a good book for an introduction to the idea that feminism is about more than just women, but about systems of domination generally. It assumes that you are familiar with some of the core principles of feminism, and it makes reference to another one of her books (Feminist Theory: From Margin to Center), but for a ~120 page introduction to feminism and how it got to this point now and where it went wrong, what it did right, growing pains related to class and race, etc, I thought it was spot on.

I can see the point, but if something has evolved beyond its previous label, and it's label is seen as a detriment to many people and hinders the message, why not apply a new label? If someone says to me they are a feminist I find my first question is why they call themselves that.

I'll see if my dinky little library has that book though, thanks for the tip.

Solving a problem already means it is solved right. If it is solved wrong, it is unsolved

I like this post a lot.

It is deeply rooted in gender issues, but the human society does not work as two separate halfs, but as one whole consisting of two halfs. Therefore problems that affects women DO affect you as well, sometimes rather directly: take for example those that grow up with a single mother and without a father. Or those that have dire pressure from other males that their hobbies and interests should be out of the the same limited "male-A-Ok" pool that they have chosen, and if you do not comform to that, you are either "a pussy", or "gay" or just straight-up weird.

With gender equality, at a certain point, males COULD and will be finally allowed to relax just a little. Because being a strong male and being a rigid male is not the same thing, yet it can looks similar from the outside. And that is just one of the many issues that actually directly affect males as well - many would be solved indirectly by improving the situation of females everywhere around us.

I think this is also a very important point. Many males feel emasculated by what they think is feminism because they feel all they hear ore negatives. Don't do this, don't be like that, etc. There are many ways to be a strong man and not be rigidly within an unhealthy or misogynistic role, but many males never get shown this.

Just as males never get the female experience in society, so women do not get the male experience. If women are able to express themselves fully, it leads naturally to normalised relations between the genders and less reliance on 'men's men' as a role model, enabling a wider variety of expression to be seen as manly. If that makes any sense?

 

[IrishNinja]

I think it's that no one's really figured out how to communicate the fairly academia-driven ideas about patriarchy and rape culture and privilege to a broader audience that's not terribly receptive to hearing that they've been doing something hurtful all their lives.

this, all day.
i too was inspired by one of our rape culture threads, and kinda disgusted by some of the reactions it got, so i spent all day reading into it & learning as a result - posted something on my own forum about it, and saw much of the same response. why were people i knew to be pretty progressive/accepting of even notions like privilege meeting this one with such hostility?

because privilege is something to be acknowledged, but simply recognizing it doesn't directly bring some harsh culpability...but the deeper roots of rape culture do, that i could be contributing - consciously or not - to a society that demonizes victims, and my actions (and specifically inactions) can create a direct harm for said women.

I now get why it's not a popular idea with many, and your point stands - whoever finds a way to make that truth more palatable has a tremendous future in marketing.

 

[remnant]

woah woah. That wasn't what I mean at all. I wasn't trying to be arrogant, nor did I ever say I could solve everyone's problems. I said that solving men's and women's social problems went hand in hand. You can't fix one without fixing the other. Thus why feminism stands for equality I guess. Can all societal issues really be solved? I doubt it, but I'd like to think we can make things better.

You're assuming their problems are the same, and that feminists care about these other issues they apparently are involved in equally.

Case in point, boys have fallen behind girls in academia. They drop out more, have lowered in college attendance and graduation rates and have been hit much harder in this recession. All that stated, what have been the focus of most, if not all feministic academia in the past few years. How to get more women into STEM fields. How does solving that help any boy failing in school. Arguably a much bigger concern than making sure women become engineers instead of teachers?

There is a reason why few definitions of feminism are actually as all encompassing as feminists like to say. because they really aren't. This isn't to say that feminists are bad or wrong or whatever, but to debunk this idea that focusing on men and women issues are one and the same.

 

[shanshan310]

You're assuming their problems are the same, and that feminists care about these other issues they apparently are involved in equally.

No, you're assuming I think that.

 

[Moral Panic]

snip

I don't think Feminism will naturally get you there. Feminism only focuses on women and their plight, as long as everything is good for women feminism couldn't care less about what effect it has on men. Any benefits are accidental and not by design. That doesn't make it a bad thing, just it is what it is. Feminism seeks (and has been rather successful) to open up gender roles and opportunities for women. A women can behave like a man (in terms of traditional roles) and no one will care much. A man who behaves like a woman (in terms of traditional roles) is looked down upon by society. Feminism doesn't care about the second part, and why should it? It is a movement made for the advancement of women, not of making everything equal between genders.

My main problem with feminism is it's implicit assumption that because you are a man you are privileged, as if being a poor black male puts you in a position of power vs a rich white woman in terms of ANYTHING.

 

[cutmeamango]

The lady who wrote "The War Against Boys: How Misguided Feminism Is Harming Our Young Men", says she is part of the "equity feminism", while the others are "gender feminism", a gynocentric and misandric branch of feminism. Gender feminists typically criticize contemporary gender roles and aim to eliminate them altogether.

Stolen directly from Wikipedia.
She has such a welcoming and cozy smile, I like her.

 

[remnant]

No, you're assuming I think that.

Yeah i'm assuming you think focusing on women issues will help men indirectly, and eventually you will get to, well everyone else.

 

[FeedMeAStrayCat]

Feminist dude here! ~raises hand~

Honestly, just try to forget any bad feelings you have attached to the word. If you're for gender equality, you are a feminist, end of story.

 

[maharg]

Case in point, boys have fallen behind girls in academia. They drop out more, have lowered in college attendance and graduation rates and have been hit much harder in this recession. All that stated, what have been the focus of most, if not all feministic academia in the past few years. How to get more women into STEM fields. How does solving that help any boy failing in school. Arguably a much bigger concern than making sure women become engineers instead of teachers?

Why is it arguably a bigger concern? I'm not asking that rhetorically, I really want to know your thought process.

I don't personally think they're problems that have mutually exclusive solutions or exploration. It doesn't entirely surprise me either that momentum would be in favour of the target of affirmative action for decades, regardless of whether or not affirmative action is a good idea. Nor does it surprise me that glass ceilings would first be most substantially broken in a part of life that is and has become more so driven by direct and obvious merit. And it also doesn't surprise me that questions and answers about what to do about it might lag behind the reality of it by a few years. Women only had to wait the entirety of modern democratic history to obtain suffrage, after all.

But the gender imbalances in the sciences are surely considerably more lopsided than the current imbalances overall, and that's an entire field of endeavour that, for some reason, one gender is vastly more likely to succeed in to degree that can't be explained by pure aptitude.

My main problem with feminism is it's implicit assumption that because you are a man you are privileged, as if being a poor black male puts you in a position of power vs a rich white woman in terms of ANYTHING.

This is just silly. You've conflated three different kinds of privilege and tried to force them onto the same spectrum. Of course you get wonky results.

 

[kurtrussell]

I think men are awesome. I love having a penis, I think it is the focal point of our entire species and should be treated with the reverence it deserves. I celebrate male strengths and I don't think there is a single job in the world that a woman could do better than a man.

Why is it not socially acceptable to hold this belief when the opposite is welcomed with open arms?

 

[maharg]

I think men are awesome. I love having a penis, I think it is the focal point of our entire species and should be treated with the reverence it deserves. I celebrate male strengths and I don't think there is a single job in the world that a woman could do better than a man.

Why is it not socially acceptable to hold this belief when the opposite is welcomed with open arms?

Go to a bar and say all this and tell me it's not socially acceptable to hold this belief.

 

[Gustav]

For simplicity's sake, if you believe in equal rights and treatment for women, you are a feminist.

The only reason there's a negative connotation attached to the word is through dumb fuck misogynists.

Is there anybody here who believes women should be treated absolutely equal to men?

 

[FeedMeAStrayCat]

I think men are awesome. I love having a penis, I think it is the focal point of our entire species and should be treated with the reverence it deserves. I celebrate male strengths and I don't think there is a single job in the world that a woman could do better than a man.

Why is it not socially acceptable to hold this belief when the opposite is welcomed with open arms?

......Wow... uhh... yeah.. just wow

 

[Conor 419]

I think men are awesome. I love having a penis, I think it is the focal point of our entire species and should be treated with the reverence it deserves. I celebrate male strengths and I don't think there is a single job in the world that a woman could do better than a man.

Why is it not socially acceptable to hold this belief when the opposite is welcomed with open arms?

LOL

 

[kurtrussell]

......Wow... uhh... yeah.. just wow

So yeah, thanks for proving my point there.

 

[mrklaw]

this, all day.
i too was inspired by one of our rape culture threads, and kinda disgusted by some of the reactions it got, so i spent all day reading into it & learning as a result - posted something on my own forum about it, and saw much of the same response. why were people i knew to be pretty progressive/accepting of even notions like privilege meeting this one with such hostility?

because privilege is something to be acknowledged, but simply recognizing it doesn't directly bring some harsh culpability...but the deeper roots of rape culture do, that i could be contributing - consciously or not - to a society that demonizes victims, and my actions (and specifically inactions) can create a direct harm for said women.

I now get why it's not a popular idea with many, and your point stands - whoever finds a way to make that truth more palatable has a tremendous future in marketing.

got any links, either to your post or some of the material you found helpful?

 

[maharg]

So yeah, thanks for proving my point there.

Because GAF is entirely representative of the entire world's thinking.

 

[Reuenthal]

I am not a feminist, I find their ideology dogmatic and problematic but some aspects of the more moderate feminism are probably part of my general philosophy although initially the word egalitarian comes in mind, I am not sure if it is fit to describe my views.

What does being in favor of gender equality means? I am generally in favor of humans having a culture that is most beneficial to them and as little oppression as possible and solve issues of injustice, but I expect humans to specialize in different areas and not all human beings to share the same culture. Nor do I find it advantageous so that goes against humans having a culture most beneficial to them. That certain human beings are different than other human beings is not by itself an issue, the differences if they are harmful can be an issue, I guess. I also like meritocracy.

Certain equality can certainly means less injustice, but my goal is not absolute equality and equality is not all important, it has some importance, more so in how it relates to other issues than taken on its own so I can't say I am no egalitarian at all. I guess the idea that there are ways to treat differently people and groups which share the value of being acceptable. However treating people more equally can also improve the situation.

Culture differences and how to treat other people are not set in stone and easy to set a general way to behave in a completely exact way. Dogmatism can rather lead to wrong conclusions and wrong behavior and results.

 

[FeedMeAStrayCat]

So yeah, thanks for proving my point there.

Alrighty Mr Russell! I don't recall doing such a thing though..? hahaha
I think you're just a little confused about the term feminism. It doesn't *have* to mean some uber-bitch women that hate men and think they are above them. 99% of feminists are not that.

 

[Conor 419]

Is there anybody here who believes women should be treated absolutely equal to men?

People should be solely judge judied on the merits of the individual rather than the usual bullshit of using averages to write off an entire gender.

 

[remnant]

Why is it arguably a bigger concern? I'm not asking that rhetorically, I really want to know your thought process.

I don't personally think they're problems that have mutually exclusive solutions or exploration. It doesn't entirely surprise me either that momentum would be in favour of the target of affirmative action for decades, regardless of whether or not affirmative action is a good idea. Nor does it surprise me that glass ceilings would first be most substantially broken in a part of life that is and has become more so driven by direct and obvious merit. And it also doesn't surprise me that questions and answers about what to do about it might lag behind the reality of it by a few years. Women only had to wait the entirety of modern democratic history to obtain suffrage, after all.

But the gender imbalances in the sciences are surely considerably more lopsided than the current imbalances overall, and that's an entire field of endeavour that, for some reason, one gender is vastly more likely to succeed in to degree that can't be explained by pure aptitude.

Because we are having a generation of under-educated men who will not reach their potential. it's similar to what happened to girls and that largely propelled many feminists. So what is it? What's good for the girl isn't a concern for the boy? Your solution is "well women had to wait so now it's time for the men to be ignored."

This is what I'm talking about. Big talk about equality but what have they actually done about everyone else. Hell it took feminists decades to even move beyond the focus of middle class or higher white women.

 

[kurtrussell]

Because GAF is entirely representative of the entire world's thinking.

Wait. That sounded sarcastic. You mean it isn't?

 

[Gustav]

People should be solely judge judied on the merits of the individual rather than the usual bullshit of using averages to write off an entire gender.

Sorry, man. I can't. I need to woo women. Don't want to woo guys.

 

[FeedMeAStrayCat]

I'm a dude and I don't know shit about cars. Or how to fix things. Or anything about beer, really. AM I LESSER OF A MAN? ~manly tears~

 

[cutmeamango]

Go to a bar and say all this and tell me it's not socially acceptable to hold this belief.

Is the bar a locus of unfiltered social free thought? Or are you saying that a bar will contain a large male populace that due being under influence will concur with genuine thought on the subject? Or are you saying that it is socially acceptable and not socially acceptable?

 

[Gustav]

Is the bar a locus of unfiltered social free thought? Or are you saying that a bar will contain a large male populace that due being under influence will concur with genuine thought? Or are you saying that it is socially acceptable and not socially acceptable?

Impressive work.

 

[Conor 419]

Sorry, man. I can't. I need to woo women. Don't want to woo guys.

How is that not what I just said?

 

[remnant]

I'm a dude and I don't know shit about cars. Or how to fix things. Or anything about beer, really. AM I LESSER OF A MAN? ~manly tears~

No, just dumb.

 

[FeedMeAStrayCat]

No, just dumb.

Indeed ~bows~

 

[FeedMeAStrayCat]

I also don't watch sports, have never been in a fight... what is wrong with me, dear lord. This penis is no longer necessary, it barely functions as is!

 

[kurtrussell]

I think you're just a little confused about the term feminism. It doesn't *have* to mean some uber-bitch women that hate men and think they are above them. 99% of feminists are not that.

I didn't specifically mean to attack feminism per se. I was just trying to point out that if you take the usual ramblings of the rampant, liberal Lilith Fair warriors and adapt it for the other sex, it suddenly becomes less "empowering" and "you go, girl!" and more "You fucking douche, how dare you!". Why is it that woman are allowed to really enjoy being women, but those big dumb men are not afforded the same luxury?

I also don't watch sports, have never been in a fight... what is wrong with me, dear lord. This penis is no longer necessary, it barely functions as is!

Seriously, guy, hand your dude card in at the door.

 

[Gustav]

I also don't watch sports, have never been in a fight... what is wrong with me, dear lord. This penis is no longer necessary, it barely functions as is!

Do you at least think that women are only good for sex and cooking? Then everything is fine, sir.

 

[FeedMeAStrayCat]

Do you at least think that women are only good for sex and cooking? Then everything is fine, sir.

..............I don't. Where do I turn this man card in? Help.. me... guys. I think it's the butt sex for me now

 

[Gustav]

..............I don't. Where do I turn this man card in? Help.. me... guys. I think it's the butt sex for me now

Or you could always start watching porn where women lick mens asses. It's super gay.

 

[cutmeamango]

I'm a dude and I don't know shit about cars. Or how to fix things. Or anything about beer, really. AM I LESSER OF A MAN? ~manly tears~

I also don't watch sports, have never been in a fight... what is wrong with me, dear lord. This penis is no longer necessary, it barely functions as is!

Women, men, LGBT, all races, all ages, they all do that.
You are lesser than a human.
You can't even be a cool dog, wolf, cat or dragon because you lack a tail.
Dress up like a rock and sit there.

 

[maharg]

Because we are having a generation of under-educated men who will not reach their potential. it's similar to what happened to girls and that largely propelled many feminists. So what is it? What's good for the girl isn't a concern for the boy? Your solution is "well women had to wait so now it's time for the men to be ignored."

This is what I'm talking about. Big talk about equality but what have they actually done about everyone else. Hell it took feminists decades to even move beyond the focus of middle class or higher white women.

So your problem is that "I want all the problems solved RIGHT NOW OR I'M TAKING MY BALL HOME!" I didn't say anything about 'my solution'. I said it's unsurprising. The fact that you even know about this problem (and I agree it is one) belies any notion of some grand conspiracy to suppress it (I grant you did not actually say it, but there is certainly a tint of conspiracy to your false dichotomies).

I find it funny that you're the one in here talking about prioritizing them, but every one else who's talking about dealing with both of them is the bad guy.

Also, just to note, you didn't actually answer the question. I asked why it's arguably *MORE* important. Not why it's important. It's a given that it is, in fact, important.

I didn't specifically mean to attack feminism per se. I was just trying to point out that if you take the usual ramblings of the rampant, liberal Lilith Fair warriors and adapt it for the other sex, it suddenly becomes less "empowering" and "you go, girl!" and more "You fucking douche, how dare you!". Why is it that woman are allowed to really enjoy being women, but those big dumb men are not afforded the same luxury?

So... who actually said the female version of what you posted?

 

[kurtrussell]

So... who actually said the female version of what you posted?

Any woman who's ever appeared in The Vagina Monologues ?

 

[Dead Man]

Women, men, LGBT, all races, all ages, they all do that.
You are lesser than a human.
You can't even be a cool dog, wolf, cat or dragon because you lack a tail.
Dress up like a rock and sit there.

LOL

 

[maharg]

And the vagina monologues represents mainstream thinking does it?

Also I think to find the male equivalent of the vagina monologues you pretty much just have to go to any male-starring sitcom that's watched by millions of people. Often it's not even very far off what you just said, even if it is usually shouted down by an equally ridiculous shrill emasculating wife.

 

[kurtrussell]

And the vagina monologues represents mainstream thinking does it?

No, but the fact that it is a internationally recognised, lauded and popular play indicates to me that the themes contained within are socially acceptable.

 

[FeedMeAStrayCat]

Any woman who's ever appeared in The Vagina Monologues ?

To further support the handing in of my man card... I took a Women's Studies course in college. I was one of two guys in it lol we watched the Vagina Monologues and my life has never been the same*











* don't even remember it anymore

 

[FeedMeAStrayCat]

Women, men, LGBT, all races, all ages, they all do that.
You are lesser than a human.
You can't even be a cool dog, wolf, cat or dragon because you lack a tail.
Dress up like a rock and sit there.

Teach me your ways. Your human ways.

 

[maharg]

You live in a strange world if you think academia (and let's get real here, that's where people care about the vagina monologues for any other reason than to get upset at them) sets what's considered socially acceptable. Never mind all the critically acclaimed award winning books and plays that offend people's sense of write and wrong all the time.

 

[FeedMeAStrayCat]

And does that say dress up like THE ROCK?! CAUSE I'M ON BOARD WITH THIS PLAN! Dwayne Johnson is plenty manly

 

[HarryHengst]

I think men are awesome. I love having a penis, I think it is the focal point of our entire species and should be treated with the reverence it deserves. I celebrate male strengths and I don't think there is a single job in the world that a woman could do better than a man.

Why is it not socially acceptable to hold this belief when the opposite is welcomed with open arms?

But that is the standard? Its why feminism is necessary: men are still believed to be better at a wide range of jobs, from hunting to leading companies to sports to anything to do with math. Pretty much the only thing women are considered better at is taking care of people.

 

[fabricated backlash]

They think rad fems are out to castrate them or something.

To be fair, I've got to know quite a few of those. Wouldn't sleep in the same room with them without a knife under my pillow and maybe a chastity belt.

Allthough I would say that these women aren't radical feminists but rather idiots.

 

[FeedMeAStrayCat]

To be fair, I've got to know quite a few of those. Wouldn't sleep in the same room with them without a knife under my pillow and maybe a chastity belt.

Allthough I would say that these women aren't radical feminists but rather idiots.

~golf clap~

 

[The Anti-Monitor]

I'd say those who say they actually know man-hating feminists are making it up, but then again I thought the same about people actually knowing people who thought the Earth was 5000 years old.

But still, trying to twist the word feminist into something negative is ridiculous and those who do it that way should be ashamed.

 

[Dead Man]

And the vagina monologues represents mainstream thinking does it?

Also I think to find the male equivalent of the vagina monologues you pretty much just have to go to any male-starring sitcom that's watched by millions of people. Often it's not even very far off what you just said, even if it is usually shouted down by an equally ridiculous shrill emasculating wife.

That does sort of undermine your point of it being socially accepted. Although that archetype is sort of the fault of both sides of the argument.

 

[TUROK]

Nope. I find myself clashing with women who define themselves as feminists, and have been called a misogynist asshole many times.

I like to think that I support equal rights and opportunity between the genders, but hey... Maybe I am sexist.