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[SirKicksalot]

Gabe Newell ordered to make in-person deposition for Valve v. Wolfire Games lawsuit

Valve CEO Gabe Newell has been ordered to attend an in-person deposition regarding an antitrust lawsuit filed by Wolfir…

www.gamesindustry.biz

tl;dr: furry developer who made a fortune selling Steam keys on Humble Bundle wants to put his devil game on Steam for like $599.00 or whatever, effectively serving as advertisement for $29.99 Steam keys sold on his website, sues Valve because they don't let him

Gabe wanted to do a remote deposition because of COVID (he's fat and old and probably still in NZ) but was ordered to appear in person.

 

[thekillergreece]

"The filing centred around the 30% cut that the platform holder takes, with the developer arguing that Valve used "dominance to take an extraordinarily high cut from nearly every sale that passes through its store" and that it has used its position to "exploit publishers and consumers.""

Does this guy realize the following:
- 30% is the standard pretty much anywhere.
- He is NOT required nor forced to sell his games on Valve. He could sell it on GOG or on EPIG if he wanted.
- If he thinks that the game prices are too high, he fails to realize that no matter the store, the game's price would remain high anyway. For example, COD games are 70$ on Steam AND on Blizzard even though the publisher gets 100% share over there.

 

[ScHlAuChi]

"The filing centred around the 30% cut that the platform holder takes, with the developer arguing that Valve used "dominance to take an extraordinarily high cut from nearly every sale that passes through its store" and that it has used its position to "exploit publishers and consumers.""

Does this guy realize the following:
- 30% is the standard pretty much anywhere.

Epic only wants 12%

- He is NOT required nor forced to sell his games on Valve. He could sell it on GOG or on EPIG if he wanted.

He is, when Steam is the market! Steam has over 75% market share, which is the defiintion of a monopoly.
Saying he can just sell elsewhere is not an argument a court will accept when elsewhere is not economically viable!

- If he thinks that the game prices are too high, he fails to realize that no matter the store, the game's price would remain high anyway. For example, COD games are 70$ on Steam AND on Blizzard even though the publisher gets 100% share over there.

This is also part of this lawsuit, Steam uses a Most Favored Nation clause that says you cannot sell your game cheaper elsewhere - hence why the prices are the same!
This is a form of pricefixing that will always benefit the market leader - which is probably illegal!
And before someone mentions Valve said they will only enforce that for Steam keys - that isnt in the contract you sign with them - therefore not enforeceable!

 

[DaciaJC]

These fucking idiots again?

 

[Phase]

Who's endangering who? Gabe IS the beast.

 

[Guilty_AI]

He is, when Steam is the market! Steam has over 75% market share, which is the defiintion of a monopoly.
Saying he can just sell elsewhere is not an argument a court will accept when elsewhere is not economically viable!

He can sell on both

This is also part of this lawsuit, Steam uses a Most Favored Nation clause that says you cannot sell your game cheaper elsewhere - hence why the prices are the same!
This is a form of pricefixing that will always benefit the market leader - which is probably illegal!
And before someone mentions Valve said they will only enforce that for Steam keys - that isnt in the contract you sign with them - therefore not enforeceable!

Wrong, wrong, wrong. This is a piece of misinformation that has circulated around during these cases.

Steam does NOT enforce you to sell your games at the same price as steam everywhere. What it enforces is that you sell STEAM KEYS on 3rd party sites at the same price as on the store.

If he wants to sell his game on steam for $600 and the same game on itch io for $3, without any steam keys on the package, he can. Naturally, he isn't allowed to use his steam page to advertise his "cheaper alternatives" either.

 

[LazyParrot]

This is also part of this lawsuit, Steam uses a Most Favored Nation clause that says you cannot sell your game cheaper elsewhere - hence why the prices are the same!

COD wasn't cheaper even back when you could only buy it directly from Actiblizz.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Newell had asked for a remote deposition due to concerns regarding COVID. However, the court said Newell has presented "insubstantial evidence to suggest that he is at particularised risk of serious illness" and, as a result, has been ordered to attend the deposition in person.

Guy is literally old and obese

 

[ScHlAuChi]

He can sell on both

Wrong, wrong, wrong. This is a piece of misinformation that has circled around during these cases.
Steam does NOT enforce you to sell your games at the same price as steam everywhere. What it enforces is that you sell STEAM KEYS on 3rd party sites at the same price as on the store.
If he wants to sell his game on steam for $600 and the same game on itch io for $3, without any steam keys in the package, he can.

Except that isnt true, otherwise this case would have been dismissed already, but as it turned out, Wolffire games claims were correct and the case was reopened in 2021!
But If you are so sure that your claim is correct, please tell me on which page in Valve´s standard contract is what you claim mentioned?
Maybe you know more than the court?

 

[Lethal01]

Gabe Newell ordered to make in-person deposition for Valve v. Wolfire Games lawsuit

Valve CEO Gabe Newell has been ordered to attend an in-person deposition regarding an antitrust lawsuit filed by Wolfir…

www.gamesindustry.biz

tl;dr: furry developer who made a fortune selling Steam keys on Humble Bundle wants to put his devil game on Steam for like $599.00 or whatever, effectively serving as advertisement for $29.99 Steam keys sold on his website, sues Valve because they don't let him

Gabe wanted to do a remote deposition because of COVID (he's fat and old and probably still in NZ) but was ordered to appear in person.

Man who consorts with beasts sounds metal as fuck.
Sounds like you think Furrys are cool.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Except that isnt true, otherwise this case would have been dismissed already, but as it turned out, Wolffire games claims were correct and the case was reopened!

It was back in 2021. Here's what the judge had to say:

He added that Wolfire's complaint lacked allegations supporting what it had called Valve's "coercive practices [resulting] in non-price antitrust injuries, namely a reduction in output and quality."

After it was dismissed, they were allowed to retify and elaborate some of the points highlighted by the judge and launch the lawsuit again. The devs claimed there were cases they delisted non-steam enabled games for pricing divergence reasons (a clause that, again, isn't listed on their terms of use), and thats exactly one of the points the judge wants them to detail and elaborate now, with actual evidence that they do it and for that reason.

But If you are so sure that your claim is correct, please show me in Valve´s contract where it mentiones that?

You're the one who has to show me where it states prices must be the same, burden of proof is on you.

 

[ScHlAuChi]

It was back in 2021. Here's what the judge had to say:
After it was dismissed, they were allowed to retify and elaborate some of the points highlighted by the judge and launch the lawsuit again. The devs claimed there were cases they delisted non-steam enabled games (a clause that, again, isn't listed on their terms of use), and thats exactly one of the points the judge wants them to detail and elaborate now, with actual evidence that they do it and for that reason.

Well guess we will find out then!

You're the one who has to show me where it states prices must be the same, burden of proof is on you.

Breaking an NDA to win an internet argument? Good idea.... NOT!

 

[Guilty_AI]

Breaking an NDA to win an internet argument? Good idea.... NOT!

Oh, so you knew i couldn't do that even if i wanted to, yet asked for it anyway. Disingenuous attitudes like that make it hard to take you seriously.

BTW, here is a game that sells cheaper elsewhere compared to steam, proving further these claims sound like bollocks:

X3: Terran War Pack

The X3 Terran War Pack bundle includes X3: Terran Conflict, X3: Albion Prelude and X3: Fa

www.gog.com

X3: Terran War Pack on Steam

store.steampowered.com

 

[LazyParrot]

But If you are so sure that your claim is correct, please show me in Valve´s contract where it mentiones that?

Here are links to Valve's rules and guidelines regarding pricing and the creation and sale of Steam keys:

Pricing (Steamworks Documentation)

partner.steamgames.com

Steam Keys (Steamworks Documentation)

partner.steamgames.com

The latter contains a clause limiting discounts on other platforms, the former does not. Seems pretty clear to me.

 

[ScHlAuChi]

Oh, so you knew i couldn't do that even if i wanted to, yet asked for it anyway. Disingenuous attitudes like that make it hard to take you seriously.

Of course I did, as you just repeated Valve´s claims that arent reflected in their contracts - but you would know that if you had seen those!
And if you didnt, you just talk out of your ass and not based on facts!

BTW, here is a game that sells cheaper elsewhere compared to steam, proving further these claims sound like bollocks:

X3: Terran War Pack

The X3 Terran War Pack bundle includes X3: Terran Conflict, X3: Albion Prelude and X3: Fa

www.gog.com

X3: Terran War Pack on Steam

store.steampowered.com

7$ on Steam
17.60$ on GOG - clearly cheaper!

 

[SlimeGooGoo]

Wolfire Games has a nice dev blog

 

[ScHlAuChi]

Here are links to Valve's rules and guidelines regarding pricing and the creation and sale of Steam keys:
The latter contains a clause limiting discounts on other platforms, the former does not. Seems pretty clear to me.

A documentation is not a contract - they can write whatever they want in there - its non enforceable!

 

[BennyBlanco]

Put your furry schlock on itch.io and be done with it then. I hope Gabe shows up to court and does nothing but flirt with this guy’s mom in a 4XL polo.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Of course I did, as you just repeated Valve´s claims that arent reflected in their contracts - but you would know that if you had seen those!
And if you didnt, you just talk out of your ass and not based on facts!

The judge saw and said it was bollocks, otherwise case wouldn't have been dismissed with the argument said claim didn't hold any water.

7$ on Steam
17.60$ on GOG - clearly cheaper!

Because of the sale lmao, full price is $26 on steam. I think its pretty clear at this point you ran out of arguments so thats the end of this conversation. All you'll get from me from now on are laugh emojis.

 

[ScHlAuChi]

The judge saw and said it was bollocks, otherwise case wouldn't have been dismissed, with the argument the claim was bollocks.

Then you have nothing to worry, Wolffire Games will certainly lose!
Or are you just scared they might win and force changes to your beloved Steam?

Because of the sale lmao, full price is $26 on steam. I think its pretty clear at this point you ran out of arguments so thats the end of this conversation.

Sale or not, it is cheaper on Steam - you picked this example!
The conversation ends once the ruling has been done

 

[justiceiro]

Oh, please, will somebody think of the poor multi billionaire

 

[SlimeGooGoo]

Sale or not, it is cheaper on Steam - you picked this example!

I wonder if the regional price changes would force devs to increase prices elsewhere too

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

Oh, please, will somebody think of the poor multi billionaire

That's actually the attitude of phone scammers in 3rd world countries; they think stealing from the rest of us is robbing the rich, thus not a crime. Fuck those people.

 

[LazyParrot]

A documentation is not a contract - they can write whatever they want in there - its non enforceable!

The only contract a seller needs to sign in order to distribute their games on Steam is the Steam Distribution Agreement, which, as far as I can tell, doesn't contain such a clause either.

If you can find one please post it.

 

[ScHlAuChi]

The only contract a seller needs to sign in order to distribute their games on Steam is the Steam Distribution Agreement, which, as far as I can tell, doesn't contain such a clause either.
If you can find one please post it.

It is of course possible it got changed after the lawsuit. But I dont want to claim something that would break an NDA or that I dont know for sure, thats for the courts to decide!
Maybe by 2024 we will get a ruling for this.

 

[LazyParrot]

But I dont want to claim something that would break an NDA or that I dont know for sure, thats for the courts to decide!

Bit late for that, isn't it? For someone who has apparently never seen the Steam distribution agreement you seemed pretty confident about its contents.

By the way, the X3 Terran War pack has been consistently cheaper on GOG than on Steam throughout most of the year, even when there was no sale going on:

 

[thekillergreece]

Epic only wants 12%

Then what prevents him from selling his game on that sh!tole of a store they call EPIG?

He is, when Steam is the market! Steam has over 75% market share, which is the defiintion of a monopoly.

Should Valve close down Steam then for being too good? I don't get what you try to explain.

Saying he can just sell elsewhere is not an argument a court will accept when elsewhere is not economically viable!

You just said EPIG only wants 12%, is that not economically viable either?

This is also part of this lawsuit, Steam uses a Most Favored Nation clause that says you cannot sell your game cheaper elsewhere - hence why the prices are the same!
This is a form of pricefixing that will always benefit the market leader - which is probably illegal!
And before someone mentions Valve said they will only enforce that for Steam keys - that isnt in the contract you sign with them - therefore not enforeceable!

That's the most nonsensical argument I have ever seen. That 'Most Favored Nation clause' of yours is backed by any proof you can provide?

 

[ScHlAuChi]

Bit late for that, isn't it? For someone who has apparently never seen the Steam distribution agreement you seemed pretty confident about its contents.

I released games on Steam - so I did see it, but I cant say for sure if it was changed.
But I can say that the lawsuit would have been thrown out if there was really nothing to it.

By the way, the X3 Terran War pack has been consistently cheaper on GOG than on Steam throughout most of the year, even when there was no sale going on:

Ok fair point!
But will this be enough to convince the court?

 

[StereoVsn]

Then you have nothing to worry, Wolffire Games will certainly lose!
Or are you just scared they might win and force changes to your beloved Steam?

Sale or not, it is cheaper on Steam - you picked this example!
The conversation ends once the ruling has been done

Do you work for this developer or something? Or Epic? You seem to be in some sort of a warpath here for no conceivable reason.

Also developers can generate Steam keys and sell them for bigger cut on sites like GMG or Fanatical which quite often have sales that are different from Steam.

Also as Epic has amply proven you can’t run a proper platform storefront that can actually support improvements on that 12% cut.

 

[FullMetalx117]

Gabe man…low key one of the most fascinating people in gaming. He never speaks and lays low, yet has a giant private empire. He’s probably the richest man in gaming. Hope a biopic is made about him someday, I’m always interested in what he has to say.

 

[ScHlAuChi]

Do you work for this developer or something? Or Epic?

I have nothing to do with Epic or Wolffire games.
As a consumer im fine with Steam, I have close to 600 games on there.
But I´m not just a consumer, I´m also a dev.

You seem to be in some sort of a warpath here for no conceivable reason.

What is so inconceivable to not want to give away 30% of your profits?
Would you be willing to do that with your salary? I dont think so!
I dont even care about Epic, Epic is just an ends to a mean to bring more competition!

Also developers can generate Steam keys and sell them for bigger cut on sites like GMG or Fanatical which quite often have sales that are different from Steam.

Yes you can, but then Valve will stop giving you keys!

Also as Epic has amply proven you can’t run a proper platform storefront that can actually support improvements on that 12% cut.

We will see what the future brings

 

[Kaleinc]

ScHlAuChi
no one needs your asset flip and your shithole store

also

 

[StereoVsn]

I have nothing to do with Epic or Wolffire games.
As a consumer im fine with Steam, I have close to 600 games on there.
But I´m not just a consumer, I´m also a dev.

What is so inconceivable to not want to give away 30% of your profits?
Would you be willing to do that with your salary? I dont think so!
I dont even care about Epic, Epic is just an ends to a mean to bring more competition!

Yes you can, but then Valve will stop giving you keys!

We will see what the future brings

The reason that Valve has the market share is they plow the money into actually improving their platform. That results in outstanding and improving input support, SteamVR, Steamworks features, integrated payment processing fees, Linux support, actually usable and improving discovery features and a ton more.

But you only care about the fees, so go to Epic or whatever. Epic storefront hasn’t innovated, have brought a trickle of improvements over literally years. They are useless and pointless. And even free games can’t push people to actually use the store.

So basically from consumer perspective, go fly a kite my dude, you are endorsing anti consumer push to get a bigger cut for your software that will make the experience worse for millions of people.

Oh and it’s BS they you can’t run cheaper sales on GMG or Fanatical or Gamebillet or whatever because I literally just bought games for cheaper vs Steam sales. And I have been doing this for many years.

 

[LazyParrot]

But I can say that the lawsuit would have been thrown out if there was really nothing to it.

IANAL, but I don't think that's how this works. All that's needed for a case to make it to court is that the allegations - if proven to be true - would indicate with reasonable certainty that the defendant acted unlawfully. Whether or not the allegations actually hold water is determined over the course of the actual trial.

From what I remember the original case got dismissed because they couldn't even do that, i.e. even if Valve had done everything Wolfire said they had done, it likely wouldn't even have constituted a crime, so the judge dismissed the case.

 

[ScHlAuChi]

The reason that Valve has the market share is they plow the money into actually improving their platform. That results in outstanding and improving input support to SteamVR, Steamworks features, integrated payment processing fees, Linux support, actually usable and improving discovery features and a ton more.

Oh and you think Valve wouldnt be able to do all that with only a 20% share?
They have hundreds of billions in the bank!

But you only care about the fees, so go to Epic or whatever. Epic storefront hasn’t innovated, have brought a trickle of improvements over literally years. They are useless and pointless. And even few games can’t push people to actually use the store.

How dare them developers looking out for themselves!

So basically from consumer perspective, go fly a kite my dude, you are endorsing anti consumer push to get a bigger cut for your software they will make the experience worse for millions of people.

As a consumer you always pay more with a monopoly in the long run - that is a proven fact you cant dispute.
You seem to be fine with that, and that is ok, but not everyone is! How dare me disagreeing with you!

Oh and it’s BS they you can’t run cheaper sales on GMG or Fanatical or Gamebillet or whatever because I literally just bought games for cheaper vs Steam sales. And I have been doing this for many years.

Well good news then for you, the lawsuit has no merit, Valve will win

 

[ScHlAuChi]

IANAL, but I don't think that's how this works. All that's needed for a case to make it to court is that the allegations - if proven to be true - would indicate with reasonable certainty that the defendant acted unlawfully. Whether or not the allegations actually hold water is determined over the course of the actual trial.

From what I remember the original case got dismissed because they couldn't even do that, i.e. even if Valve had done everything Wolfire said they had done, it likely wouldn't even have constituted a crime, so the judge dismissed the case.

Im not a laywer either, and I dont actually think Wolffire has a good chance to win, this is a US court after all. The US´s anti trust track record in the last decade is super weak.
At the end of the day, I hope if Wolffire wins Steam will get more competition and gets better. And if Wolffire loses, well nothing will change - Status Q stays intact.

The mistake people here make is to think that I´m "Anti Steam", becasue i critizise Valve, but that isnt the case - it is a good platform for me as a dev.
But more competition would make Steam even better by forcing them to lower dev fees and having better service.
I dont see why wanting that is some sort of antoganistic move that warrants me getting attacked verbally becasue my opinion differs....
After all I thought NeoGAF isnt a bubble like ResetEra where wrong opinions are forbidden!

 

[StereoVsn]

Oh and you think Valve wouldnt be able to do all that with only a 20% share?
They have hundreds of billions in the bank!


How dare them developers looking out for themselves!


As a consumer you always pay more with a monopoly in the long run - that is a proven fact you cant dispute.
You seem to be fine with that, and that is ok, but not everyone is! How dare me disagreeing with you!


Well good news then for you, the lawsuit has no merit, Valve will win

Ahh, tales from your Ass. Valve has hundreds of billions $ in the bank? Is that in Zimbabwe dollars?

And I have no idea if Valve could do all of that at 20% fee. Neither do you, but you seem awfully sure of it.

 

[Three]

This Steam store and that playstation store lawsuit are the same principle and they're not going to get anywhere, unless Epic miraculously wins against Google and digital distribution laws change dramatically.

 

[ScHlAuChi]

Ahh, tales from your Ass. Valve has hundreds of billions $ in the bank? Is that in Zimbabwe dollars?

Yeah youre right, not hundreds, but hundred+ at least.
But hey I get it you dont give a flying fuck about devs that provide your entertainment

And I have no idea if Valve could do all of that at 20% fee. Neither do you, but you seem awfully sure of it.

It is pretty clear digital stores today can be run for very little - see the numbers that got released in the Google lawsuit.
Google has a 70% profit margin on the Google Playstore.

But hey we will never agree on this stuff, and you will defend Steam to the death, so I cant win anyway
But I try to offer a different viewpoint regardless, to show there is opinions outside your bubble

 

[ScHlAuChi]

This Steam store and that playstation store lawsuit are the same principle and they're not going to get anywhere, unless Epic miraculously wins against Google and digital distribution laws change dramatically.

They are changing in March 2024 (at least in the EU) - look up Digital Services Act / Digital Markets Act.

 

[Bwesh]

 

[Sophist]

Notch didn't rely on any store to sell Minecraft. Same for escape from tarkov or league of legends.

 

[Larxia]

Epic only wants 12%


He is, when Steam is the market! Steam has over 75% market share, which is the defiintion of a monopoly.
Saying he can just sell elsewhere is not an argument a court will accept when elsewhere is not economically viable!


This is also part of this lawsuit, Steam uses a Most Favored Nation clause that says you cannot sell your game cheaper elsewhere - hence why the prices are the same!
This is a form of pricefixing that will always benefit the market leader - which is probably illegal!
And before someone mentions Valve said they will only enforce that for Steam keys - that isnt in the contract you sign with them - therefore not enforeceable!

Omg wtf you're still over here defending Epic in all the threads you can? What's your goal with that? Do you work for Epic or something? This starts to look like an obsession at this point. The main topic here wasn't even about epic.

If he doesn't want to release his game on steam, he's free to not do so, or better, if he wants he can sell it on steam, which would bring money no matter what, AND sell it on other stores, because valve doesn't force your games to be exclusive on their stores, they can be sold on any other stores, pretty great no?

 

[TheInfamousKira]

This Isn't about crazed Twitter death threats from a gender conscious zoophile like it initially seemed (to me) and so the lulz factor of any proceeding events will be noticeably dulled from this spectator.

 

[Guilty_AI]

This Steam store and that playstation store lawsuit are the same principle and they're not going to get anywhere, unless Epic miraculously wins against Google and digital distribution laws change dramatically.

Its quite different as Sony also controls the hardware, unlike Steam. You literally have no alternative to buy digital games on Playstation besides the PS Store, not to mention Sony enforces much more rigid pricing and sales policies.

 

[Three]

They are changing in March 2024 (at least in the EU) - look up Digital Services Act / Digital Markets Act.

They are but not the way Epic, this dev and the claimants in that lawsuit want.

Its quite different as Sony also controls the hardware, unlike Steam. You literally have no alternative to buy digital games on Playstation besides the PS Store, not to mention Sony enforces much more rigid pricing and sales policies.

It's true about the hardware and the fact that steam at least gives 5000 keys for pubs/devs but the principle they are trying to fight here is the same, control over pricing within that single Valve/PS store. I don't think they have a chance of winning.

 

[ScHlAuChi]

Omg wtf you're still over here defending Epic in all the threads you can? What's your goal with that? Do you work for Epic or something? This starts to look like an obsession at this point. The main topic here wasn't even about epic.

Damn! You got me!
But I tell you a little secret - I´m a paid troll, and for every hate post I get, Tim Sweeny paypals me 100$ - so please keep going, you make me rich!

If he doesn't want to release his game on steam, he's free to not do so, or better, if he wants he can sell it on steam, which would bring money no matter what, AND sell it on other stores, because valve doesn't force your games to be exclusive on their stores, they can be sold on any other stores, pretty great no?

Why dont you read the thread? Too hard?

 

[IFireflyl]

The biggest twat in this lawsuit is somehow ScHlAuChi . Get a life, man.

 

[Guilty_AI]

It's true about the hardware and the fact that steam at least gives 5000 keys for pubs/devs but the principle they are trying to fight here is the same, control over pricing within that single Valve/PS store. I don't think they have a chance of winning.

The thing is, the re-opening of this case isn't over Valve's control within their store, but that allegedly they were trying to control prices outside the Steam enviroment, which is what the dev has to prove now as the 'evidence' they previously brought wasn't enough to confirm such practices were in place.

 

[Astray]

Guy is literally old and obese

Many other old and obese people appear in court, why should he be given special treatment?