Oh yeah what happened is bullshit and gun culture is the worst, this is also one of those few episodes that gun people will latch on to, because after all this is a dude that was punched for no shaking hands with a dude whose friend just called you a nigger.
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Man with Concealed Carry defends himself from Thugs...
- Thread starter sonicfan
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That's my normal as a person of Asian descent.
People don't even blink at using derogatory terms like chinaman, chink, jap, oriental, slant-eye, gook, etc., even right here on GAF, no with no actions taken by the mods.
What makes it extra frustrating is that some of these people would never ever use language that is offensive to blacks or Jews or gays, etc.
People don't learn to be not racist/not prejudiced full stop. They learn to be, or are shamed into being, not racist/not prejudiced towards specific groups.
Jacksinthe
Banned
Yup. If you brandished your weapon and someone still comes after you, you can only assume they will use it against you if given the chance. Sad it ended with a life lost but the victim was 100% justified in using it. He showed a lot of restraint until he was attacked. He did the right thing, IMO.
He didn't fire the gun in retaliation to the punch.
He told them he was armed and to GTFO.
He fired the gun while the second guy was actively charging him.
The video shows every single hallmark of a justifiable self-defense shooting.
The shooter couldn't have been more by-the-book with his actions.
Schweinehund
Member
I think the gun owner was in the right.
No it really isn't. Get over it.
I am getting the impression that geography is a significant factor in the racial connotations, or lack thereof, regarding the use of the word "thug"
It sounds like there are places, probably places with fewer black people, where "thug" is race neutral. Whereas it sounds like in the South, and other places, "thug" is code for nigger.
It sounds like there are places, probably places with fewer black people, where "thug" is race neutral. Whereas it sounds like in the South, and other places, "thug" is code for nigger.
Thug is race neutral.
It's all about context and for some reason context never matters.
Crimson-Death
Member
I just think it's kinda nice to see a story and even the video where the person was completely and absolutely justified in the use of a gun. Who knows what they would have done to him, and how far they would have hurt the gun owner.
The guy even stayed and called the authorities and left his weapon in plain view after the incident. Nicely done. But not just anyone would act that responsible, as we all know.
The gun laws here in US call for a certain level of maturity and responsibility and insight and respect that is just not at display by most of the population, unfortunately, despite what the gun nuts claim.
And yes, good riddance to these kind of moronic fucks who like to mess with people just minding their own business. I do feel very sorry for the family that will have to grieve the loss, all because of the idiot's lack of sense, respect, intelligence, and maturity.
It isn't code for anything, anywhere.
It has always meant the same thing, but someone goes on TV and says now we think it really means the N-word, and all the media whores who live and die by the word of famous people now agree, and they went from celebrating "Thug Life" to being supremely offended by the "heinous" T-word. It's all bullshit.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
It really matters where you grew up and what you were exposed to.
When I hear the name "Marcus" I don't think of a black man. The first image that pops into my head is Marcus Fenix from Gears of War.
Growing up in Chicago, "thug" was more or less the US equivalent of Britain's "hooligan." When you say thug, I think of someone in their late teens or twenties, no college education, who is either a low level enforcer for organized crime or a wannabe. No racial connotation, though some people would occasionally associate it with Italians due to mafia stereotypes.
The first time I ever heard thug used with racial connotations was here on GAF.
Seems to depend on your location. In the midwest thug is about the same as your hooligan. In the South, it may very well have a racial overtone.
Did you check the date? That "anonymous" video was from Jan, the DAY after the shooting. There was no public video at the time. There was no handy police report at the time.
The Lamonster
Member
Oh so the M. Night twist is that thugs is a code word for the n word but these people were white. Thanks for the clever lesson in culture, OP
On topic, glad the system actually worked in this case and justice was dealt properly.
On topic, glad the system actually worked in this case and justice was dealt properly.
Well, that and crack and meth.
If it were just a Hollywood punch, where tough guys trade punches to the jaw back and forth until they laugh and share a drink, you'd be right. In the real world, one punch to the right part of the face can fracture the orbit around your eye and require major reconstructive surgery and leave you blind anyway. Or knock you into momentary unconsciousness just long enough that you drop like a dead weight and crack your skull. I worked at a prosecutor's office in a rural county for five years and can remember three cases (one was mine, two assigned to co-workers) where a "fistfight" ended in coma, brain damage, and/or death.
Kev Kev
Member
You say he acted like a complete shithead, what does that really mean though? That he was a jerk? That he spouted some racial slurs? That he tried to sucker punch a guy that didn't want to shake his buddies hand because of being called said racial slurs? Or because he did all of the above and tried to attack/kill this guy?
You maybe want to respond with, "No he wasn't going to kill the guy, just sucker punch him and walk away!" Or, "He wasn't going to kill the guy, just beat within an inch of his life and walk away!". But what if, in the victims mind, all he's thinking is, "This guy might try to kill me in a god damn Waffle House, maybe he'll just try to beat me up, I don't know, but I'm not going to take that risk."
Are you saying, that you would take that that risk 100% of the time? That if someone were to rise up against you to injure or kill you, that you wouldn't injure or kill him first?
Listen, Florida is crazy (believe it or not, Florida isn't the only crazy place in America), and being a Floridian, I wouldn't put it past any of these whack jobs to try to beat me to death in a fucking Waffle House. The victim defended himself, and though I'm not always for allowing people to carry firearms, this a perfect argument as to why we should do so. He had a permit, he executed everything with great tact (from being non confrontational to setting the gun on the counter and calling the police) and it would be absolute bullshit to put him behind bars for defending himself from a guy and his posse that possibly could have ended his existence.
Miles Quaritch
Member
My point is don't just randomly racially abuse people and then attempt to violently assault them and maybe incidents like this won't happen.
Had the man just collected his food and left, he'd still be alive. He chose to become abrasive, he chose to racially abuse innocent bystander and then he chose to violently assault him. He had ample opportunity to leave, he didn't, anything that happened to him was his and his fault alone.
I don't hold the man who was defending him against two attackers in any way responsible, nor do I believe that he was under any obligation to just whoop their ass.
The easiest way to explain it is go to google and type in "thug" then click images.
I agree that the word didn't have that connection before but it has become a code word or at the very lest a stereotype.
Not gloating at all. I'm saying that they made it sound like he was some cuddly teddy bear of a man, loved animals, he was just trying to help someone out, because that is just how great of a guy he was. That was the story they spun right after it happened. Then the inconvenient facts got in the way, like evidence of the guy with the gun not being the aggressor, drugs in his system, etc..
Sad he died, it would have been nice if he had the chance to turn his life in the right direction, but he made very poor decisions, which cost him his life. If what happened had been several white guys harassed then beat a black guy to death who was outnumbered and couldn't defend himself because he was unarmed, that would be horrific. And with no evidence, the story would spun by this guy and his buddies some how that the black guy started it and "deserved" it. That is really they type of guy he was....
You get images of a lot of rappers who call themselves thugs, or have a bunch of songs with the word thug in it. You also get random black guys wearing a shirt with the word "thug life" on it, and also pictures of men of other races.
What you don't get are just random pictures of black men, and the connection was probably made when someone went on TV and told people what to feel, or wrote an opinion piece, made a comment, etc. and people latched onto it and want to make people feel guilty of using it. You don't want to be called a thug don't do thug shit. Plain and simple.
Search for the word thug here on NeoGAF and look at threads longer than a couple years or so ago:
Omar from The Wire and the 'gay thug' personality
http://neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=453217
Chinese thug stabs tire, gets something else in return
http://neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=487105
Except most of those images are of people who self identify with 'thug life'. It's from gangster rap. Trying to twist this around by saying it's white people being racist is disingenuous.
Miles Quaritch
Member
http://regressing.deadspin.com/the-word-thug-was-uttered-625-times-on-tv-yesterday-1506098319
Did you miss the Sherman incident where it became extremely obvious the context in which most media outlets now use thug.
Most people probably don't even know who Richard Sherman is, let alone the fact that he had an aggressive interview.
If you're not into sports, anything related to MLB, NFL, NHL or any other sport doesn't register unless it's a massive cheating scandal or something criminal (like Pete Rose or Aaron Hernandez).
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
A car crash? That is some karma ass karma.
Never said that it has anything to do with white people. As my post said I agree that the word didn't have that connection. And a black person that pushes or glorifies a stereotype is no better than a white person that does the same.
ryutaro's mama
Member
60 years ago, it would have likely ended quite differently...and not in the shooter's favor. :|
POWERSPHERE
Member
Suck eggs, Romper Stomper
Wrong.
Also wrong.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/thug
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/thug
http://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/thug
But by all means, continue to perpetuate the changing of the word so that it specifically refers to black people. That's totally not racist at all. Nope. Not one bit. Go ahead and contact Merriam-Webster and Oxford and INSIST that they change the definition if you feel so strongly that it's suddenly a racist term just because of some dumb internet comments and poor word usage by the media. Because what we really need in the world is for a word that applies to people of all colors to suddenly only apply just one race.
IndoAssassin
Banned
If some dude showed me his piece, I would have GTFO. But this guy had the nerve to punch him.
Talk about mentally insane
Talk about mentally insane
Bull-fucking-shit.
I've seen people shorten Japanese to Jap occasionally but not with racist intent. As for your other claims, this is easy, show us the
Can't wait till the day you say the same thing about a cop.
Don't hold your breath. Patrol has shown what his is in multiple threads.
So what should he have done? The attacker knew he had a gun. Keep that fact in mind because it's very important.
I have. Walter Scott incident.
Lone Wolf
Member
Yup. Justified shoot. Glad he was able to defend himself.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
Hell of a drug.
Interestingly in german, the word "Bimbo" is used as a racist synonym for "neger (german nigger)" but in english it is used for a certain type of woman (stupid but good looking). Sometimes in (US) movies or in books, it gets translated 1:1 so the still say/write "Bimbo" in german which is sometimes confusing for me.
So although i know that Bimbo can also mean something else, it always has the negative racist meaning when i hear it or read it (since i got called it myself a few times growing up here in germany).I then have to double check (from context) that it's actually the non-racist slang for a "stupid, hot woman".
Naw, things like this get quoted a ton so it doesn't get buried even if the poster edits it out. GAF is a very very good moderated place.
So although i know that Bimbo can also mean something else, it always has the negative racist meaning when i hear it or read it (since i got called it myself a few times growing up here in germany).I then have to double check (from context) that it's actually the non-racist slang for a "stupid, hot woman".
Naw, things like this get quoted a ton so it doesn't get buried even if the poster edits it out. GAF is a very very good moderated place.
This is too funny.
Flee or hands on. He had no knowledge whether the attacker was armed, and considering he was unarmed, the act of using a firearm on an individual for physically attacking him; only for really brief time mind you (and not having the upper hand such as pinned down negates any mindset where he was in fear of his life or others). It was grossly disproportionate. Again, slightly different from a civilian perspective but the idea of shooting someone over a punch is incredibly inappropriate, and rather frightening to be honest.
Disproportionate?
He was being rushed by a guy who had tried to confront him earlier, was obviously racist, was obviously drunk and/or high and was pretty intent on doing him harm.
In all he only fired 3 shots. According to witness statements, the first shot may have been purposefully fired at the ground to scare the guy. When Fields kept charging, he backed up and fired two more shots, hitting Fields in the arm and chest. At which point Fields left under his own power.
Williams didn't empty the clip. He didn't shoot the guy in the head. He never took a step towards Fields. He continually backed up.
There were absolutely zero aggressive steps taken by Williams and from both witness statements and the video, there is nothing he could have done (aside from let himself be beaten) that would have stopped Fields' attack.
Again, I don't think he could have done anything more by-the-book. If only all US police officers were as restrained with their use of firearms.
He was one man. They were a group of five. One of the five had already punched him. He didn't attack back. Then another of the group came inside and rushed him.
There was nowhere for him to run.
And as for "hands on?" Seriously? Police, who are paid to risk their lives, would rather shoot someone than go "hands-on" as you say and risk getting injured in a physical confrontation. A civilian, who is being threatened by someone who obviously wants to do him harm shouldn't have to suffer a beating for no reason.
Wait... wait wait wait.
Dude you're a cop no? And.... You're saying the use of force is disproportionate? We're talking about cops who, if you so much as glance at them in the wrong way could earn you being turned into swiss cheese, right?
I mean, the same cops that will immediately all say "I was fearing for my life and had to make a split-second decision" to protect themselves? You're a cop and you're saying the guy shouldn't have reached for his gun after the other dude attempted to sucker-punch him, then warned them to stay back or he'll shot and they did so despite that?
Really dude? Really??????
You can't discharge a firearm to "scare someone." That is an unlawful discharge of a firearm, and on top of that, the use of a firearm is for lethal force only where there is an immediate/imminent chance of GBI or death. That was not the case in the video, you cannot shoot someone for charging at you unless they had a weapon or already established a propensity to cause or wish to cause GBI/death.
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
With three fucked up guys there that punch could easily turn into a thrill kill, even just one guy could pull out a knife or some shit. The way I see it, if a person is getting violent, they have already forsaken the vast majority of any civility or rationality, so how am I supposed to know where they draw the line or if they even have a line?
There are too many psychos and drugged out crazies in the world to just assume everyone has kind of gentleman's rules in fighting. That shit is animal savagery and so those are the rules I'll use. I'll do everything I can as quickly as I can to make sure they go down and aren't getting back up because that's the only way I know my life is safe around a violent person. If they end up dead, as this guy here, I like to think my non-provoking self is a better person to have left in the world than a violent instigator.
Yeah, I agree with the outcome (second-guessing people making split-second decisions under duress is beyond dumb) but this could have easily gone the other way in another place.
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