-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Manhunt 2 Censorship Leads Developers to Cut Content
- Thread starter BamYouHaveAids
- Start date
B-Rad Lascelle
Banned
We know where this is leading...
- Next week, the Resident Evil 5 trailer gets pulled from XBL 'cause black people can't be zombies.
- Shortly after that, BioShock gets pulled from retailers 'cause you can threaten little girls with wrenches.
- GTA4 gets blocked from being released at all because it's... well... GTA. No other reason is needed.
- Gaming censorship turns into the hot-button issue of the 2008 US Presidential campaign. Mitt Romney recruits former Clinton loyalist and former Democrat Joe Lieberman as his running mate and marches into the White House. Jack Thompson gets a lucrative posting in cabinet.
- All Mature-rated titles get banned from retail release; Take-Two games files for bankruptcy protection; all their assets and IPs get bought up and butchered by EA and Activision (but not before a fantastic collaboration between Sid Meier and Will Wright)
- Nintendo goes on to rule the industry as the government-sanctioned console of choice (not that they wouldn't have anyway)
- Next week, the Resident Evil 5 trailer gets pulled from XBL 'cause black people can't be zombies.
- Shortly after that, BioShock gets pulled from retailers 'cause you can threaten little girls with wrenches.
- GTA4 gets blocked from being released at all because it's... well... GTA. No other reason is needed.
- Gaming censorship turns into the hot-button issue of the 2008 US Presidential campaign. Mitt Romney recruits former Clinton loyalist and former Democrat Joe Lieberman as his running mate and marches into the White House. Jack Thompson gets a lucrative posting in cabinet.
- All Mature-rated titles get banned from retail release; Take-Two games files for bankruptcy protection; all their assets and IPs get bought up and butchered by EA and Activision (but not before a fantastic collaboration between Sid Meier and Will Wright)
- Nintendo goes on to rule the industry as the government-sanctioned console of choice (not that they wouldn't have anyway)
besada said:
Bzzt! nice try but that would be the wrong answer, the reason why all of these rating systems arose stems not from gutlessness but from the alternative and that would be government regulation and banning, not just the feds but state and especially local governments. Also, if you think books have never been attacked or censored in this country, all I can say is wow, just wow.
I say scrap the whole current, mostly worthless system. Just put a little content advisory box on the game spelling out the attributes that might be controversial and stop trying to gob things into these broad and inconsistent rating groups. It doesn't work and it's only forcing developers to water down their games. It's as dumb as review ratings that have god damn decimal values in them.
Haunted One said:
But why not books? There's no rating system on books, and books are full of violence, sex, and bad ideas, so if the danger is so great to the children, why haven't books destroyed civilization yet? Once upon a time, the same sorts of goofballs who think videogames are making people more violent (in the face of evidence that shows just the opposite) thought that the novel was a dangerous thing, and that it should be kept away from women and children.
You think after centuries of watching this same silly dance, people would finally get it.
B-Rad Lascelle
Banned
Hey, we still have wars too. 'Getting it' would force the people in charge to respect the people they lead. Thankfully, we're only human. 'Getting it' isn't possible. The same, silly dance seems to work just fine as far as they're concerned.besada said:
I think that somebody should just make the most vile, irredeemably immoral game known to man. A real murder simulator where you play Jack the Ripper and you have to use the Wii remote to dissect the bodies, then go home and rape 8 year old little boys (unique Wii remote use!). Then two things will happen. The first is that people will realize that everybody, gamers and nongamers alike, find it repulsive. That gamers have lines they won't cross, even if those lines aren't quite where the most conservative Republican religious zealot's lines are. When people realize that gamers won't just play anything, that they have a moral compass, the question of drawing that line for those of us viewed too irresponsible will become moot.
The second thing that will have happened is that it will have pushed the boundaries far enough that stuff like Manhunt 2 and Condemned 2 won't seem nearly as threatening. Sure, they're extreme, but at least they aren't Pedophile the Ripper...
It is my supreme hope that, and this doesn't just apply to gaming, but that people realize that they're viewpoints aren't the only viewpoints in the world. That everybody who disagrees with them isn't a threat or a danger. And that it is okay to be different, to think different, to believe different, and to be allowed to have different tolerances. Much of the world's problems comes from the simple fact that some jerk out there thinks that what he believes is more important than what somebody else believes. That needs to stop... so I can play Manhunt 2...
The second thing that will have happened is that it will have pushed the boundaries far enough that stuff like Manhunt 2 and Condemned 2 won't seem nearly as threatening. Sure, they're extreme, but at least they aren't Pedophile the Ripper...
It is my supreme hope that, and this doesn't just apply to gaming, but that people realize that they're viewpoints aren't the only viewpoints in the world. That everybody who disagrees with them isn't a threat or a danger. And that it is okay to be different, to think different, to believe different, and to be allowed to have different tolerances. Much of the world's problems comes from the simple fact that some jerk out there thinks that what he believes is more important than what somebody else believes. That needs to stop... so I can play Manhunt 2...
Shard said:
You're wrong, completely wrong. We're talking about the ESRB, which is an American ratings system. American states and localities don't have the right to limit content, except for within very narrow bands, and then only when given the right from the federal government because to do so violates the first amendment.
Books have been attacked, and they've been pulled from libraries, but they haven't been banned. Go ahead, find me the list of federally banned books.
Go read about the formation of the Hayes system for movies, or the history of the PMRC. In each case, politicians complained, but were unable to push through any legislation. In both cases, out of fear that they might eventually do so, the industries caved in and set their own regulation systems.
Gutless.
ZombieSupaStar
Member
Ghost said:
sometimes lighting someone on fire in postal 2 just puts a smile on peoples faces.
ZombieSupaStar
Member
nightez said:
Casino isnt Casino without Joe Pesci popping some poor mother ****ers eye out, now is it.
NSFW
http://charliem.ytmnd.com/
ParticleReality
Banned
Kittonwy said:
Rockstar are the "bad boys" of Video games. Sam Houser is the marky mark of game company presidents.
Yes, but the government, flawed though it may be, is tied to the Bill of Rights - that First Amendment which states in no uncertain terms that censorship is fundamentally illegal and wrong. A private organization isn't bound to that freedom of speech. If a government tries to censor a book, it WILL be overturned in courts. Maybe not today, or tomorrow, or even next year, but it will happen relatively quickly in the grand scheme of things.Shard said:
But if some company or collection of companies decides to self censor - to hold itself back - there's no way to fight that. Manhunt get an AO. It can't be sold in stores. Now what? Who does it appeal to? On what grounds does it appeal? Free speech? Well, of course they already have free speech. AO is just a rating. It's not like the ESRB told Rockstar they couldn't make their game. Right? RIGHT?! Oh yeah, and they aren't going to tell you what standards they use to rate games so that you can't ever find a single piece of evidence of their biased, ignorant system.
Self regulated industries take much longer to overcome that regulation than ones where the US government interferes. They are not bound to the constitution - to the citizenship - like the government is. Movies are still being censored. Granted, the MPAA is a hell of a lot better than the Hayes Code, but it still results in compromised artistic vision and some foreign movies being refused release in the states (uncut, if at all).
Books don't get censored anymore because they never censored themselves. Instead, history is filled with book censorship, but it is always associated with political regimes of, shall we say, unpleasant viewpoints. Censorship is a functioning part of fascism, and to censor something - especially something like a book - would draw comparisons to fascism. Politicians may think it's best for people not to be exposed to dangerous ideas, but that is the core principle of fascism's ideology, and if politicians started acting on those retarded beliefs, they would be called on it and it would end their career.
The government isn't going to censor shit. They are too scared of what will happen to them if they get caught. Instead, they are going to scare and threaten the people who make stuff they don't like and hope it is enough for them to censor themselves. Game companies need to stand up and say, screw you guys, if you won't let us release our game rated, we'll release it unrated. If you won't let us put it on PS2's, we'll put it on Linux. If you won't let use sell it in stores, then we'll sell it online. And when people actually get the chance to play it, they'll be on our side. Not the ESRBs.
besada said:
Yea, you would be overlooking a little thing called obscenity laws there. Also, I am aware of the Hayes Code the Comics Code and all that jazz, the rating systems were a defense, a bad defense I will grant you, but still a byproduct of the government and would be moralists interfering in the first place.
Melchiah said:Isn't this a jolly time to be a horror game fan.
Resident Evil on PlayStation was what brought me back to gaming after years of absence, now it looks like Manhunt 2 ushers a way for the games to go back being nothing but children's entertainment.
Because for something to be classified adult entertainment it must allow me to crush a guys head in a vice? You dont need ultra-violence or sex to entertain adults (it apparently just makes it a lot easier).
Oh another thing I just thought of specific to video games, it isn't just the ESRB that is pulling off this nonsense, in fact they seem to be rather late to the party. Indeed we also have the international rating systems to blame. The PEGI, CERO, and the most odious OFLC, they have also been pulling this shit off and worse, some like the OFLC can outright ban games.
Melchiah
Member
Ghost said:
I take it you don't know that the release of Rule of Rose was cancelled in all of Europe, due to some politicians making a lot of noise about the game having paedophilic themes and featuring a burial of living girl amongst the gameplay. Neither of them was true. The game did have a cutscene where a girl was buried alive, AFAIK, but the player wasn't actually doing the burial like it was said in the mainstream press.
It's not about the absence of gore I'm concerned with, it's the censoring of mature themes I'm worried about. I'm worried what would happen to a game like Silent Hill 2 if it was in the making now. Would the developers have to tone down the story to avoid Adults Only rating?
Shard said:
Apparently you can't read, as I directly referred to the narrow band which was authorized by the federal government, which is the obscenity laws. The obscenity are based on the "community standard" ethic, which allows particular communities to tailor what's available FOR THEIR COMMUNITY and only under certain federal guidelines. Localities could attempt to do the same thing to videogames, but first they'd be required to have changes made in the obscenity laws, which are made at the federal level, which would never happen.
Look, the Meese commission, with the full force of the administration behind him, as the Attorney General couldn't use those laws to effectively ban pornography. Why would anyone think they could be used to effectively ban videogames, especially in the modern reality of the internet and easy availability of virtually anything? That's why they encourage this sort of self-censorship. Politicians know they could never get the teeth something like the MPAA or the Comics Code or the ESRB use willingly on themselves.
It's a bluff, and unfortunately industries keep falling for it, because they're afraid.
Shard said:
Well, I make no excuses for non-American censorship groups. Things are very different outside of America. Many countries have state run censorship (Australia, Germany), but the U.S. doesn't. We do alot of stupid things, but writing down that 1st Amendment wasn't one of them.
I really don't understand all this backlash against the ESRB. They have standards for rating games, and under those standards Manhunt 2 earned an AO rating. That's it, that's the end of the ESRB's involvement with the matter. If you want to be upset with Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft for not allowing AO games on their systems, or the retailers for not stocking the games, fine. But the ESRB has just done their job, they are not the ones keeping the game off the shelves.
twinturbo2
butthurt Heat fan
As long as you can get two bums to fight each other, Condemned 2 should be fine.$h@d0w said:
B-Rad Lascelle
Banned
Just don't get two dogs to fight each other or the game will be banned and Sega will be labeled as a Michael Vick sympathizer.twinturbo2 said:As long as you can get two bums to fight each other, Condemned 2 should be fine.
Bums Fighting = Good
Dogs Fighting = Bad
twinturbo2
butthurt Heat fan
Gotcha.B-Rad Lascelle said:Just don't get two dogs to fight each other or the game will be banned and Sega will be labeled as a Michael Vick sympathizer.
Bums Fighting = Good
Dogs Fighting = Bad
Its amazing how nu skool gamers like to blow things way out of proportion. If Manhunt 2 were a crappy game at AO - it will still be crappy at E or T, even at PGA. Manhunt is just another Time Killers or Night Trap.
I love being an old skool gamer all we cared about was game play.
.
I love being an old skool gamer all we cared about was game play.
.
Melchiah
Member
Here's Eurogamer's 2-page article about Manhunt 2, horror movies and censorship.
Some bits and pieces from it.
http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=79323
The old stigma still seems to stain the games industry, the stigma of being more children's entertainment than of adults. The people fail to see and understand, that the games industry has changed as the gamers have aged. There's absolutely no intelligent reason to try to prevent adult themes entering the games. The often heard reasoning, concerning the minors being able to get to play the games no matter how they are supervised, doesn't hold ground, as they can easily do the same with the most vile movies, magazines, books and records in the market.
Some bits and pieces from it.
http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=79323
The old stigma still seems to stain the games industry, the stigma of being more children's entertainment than of adults. The people fail to see and understand, that the games industry has changed as the gamers have aged. There's absolutely no intelligent reason to try to prevent adult themes entering the games. The often heard reasoning, concerning the minors being able to get to play the games no matter how they are supervised, doesn't hold ground, as they can easily do the same with the most vile movies, magazines, books and records in the market.
Matt said:
THE ESRB IS HOLY AND PURE, AND EVERY DECISION THEY MAKE IS RIGHTEOUS!!!
The ESRB would never do something ridiculous and nonsensical like re-rate a game for inaccessible content that you had to hack into in order to see -- Wait, what? They already did that? Really?
Well the ESRB would never try to take down or censor internet movies that they already approved and which are behind age gates -- What was that? They did that too! Your kidding??
I guess I'm sure the ESRB wouldn't rate a game more harshly because it's trying to send a political message and pander to the soccer moms even though it would totally send the industry back 20 years. Right? Right?
ZombieSupaStar
Member
nightez said:
...im almost 26 and it doesnt make it less less BS. But im more concerned about condemned getting edited.
Robobandit
Member
AstroLad said:
What I meant to say is that stupid people who are ****ed up in the head ruin the possibility of violent games for the rest of us. The fact that there exist games like Manhunt and movies like Hostel does not equate to the fact that people who are mentally disturbed kill people and try to pass off the blame on something they were exposed to.
I'm also saying that people and the media will always be blaming things on games, regardless of how sanitized they might become due to censorship.
twinturbo2
butthurt Heat fan
Quote me on this. The Beowulf game is going to be heavily edited, too.
http://blog.wired.com/games/2007/07/video-beowulf-a.html
http://blog.wired.com/games/2007/07/video-beowulf-a.html
mentalfloss
Banned
nightez said:
Thank you captain obvious. You don't have to be old skule to have an affection for good games. But sometimes us nu-skulers just want to cut off some balls.
Jon_Danger
Member
HOORAY FOR
CENSORSHIP!
The ESRB isn't at fault here. Blame Rockstar for all of this. They've been using the rating system and controversy as a marketing gimmick for years. Had Manhunt 2 received an "M" rating, with the same brutal content that every preview has been describing, the public reaction and backlash would have fallen on the entire industry. MH2 can still be released uncensored and create the same controversy, but now the collective industry can point back and show that they have safeguards in place that are working. As it stands, all of this censorship is completely voluntary in order to make more money.
I'm calling BS on the OP. This sounds more like a developer trying to drawn some extra attention to themselves than anything legitimate. Games have been throwing people through plate glass windows for years, why would a TV need to be cut out? I'd bet they never intended to include most of this stuff for technical reasons, but this way the fault isn't on them but they can still claim that they are pushing the boundaries.
I'm calling BS on the OP. This sounds more like a developer trying to drawn some extra attention to themselves than anything legitimate. Games have been throwing people through plate glass windows for years, why would a TV need to be cut out? I'd bet they never intended to include most of this stuff for technical reasons, but this way the fault isn't on them but they can still claim that they are pushing the boundaries.
Mr_Furious
Member
This sucks
Zombie James
Banned
ABACABB.
AgentOtaku
Member
f u c k this news....
EverSoTrendy
Banned
What a load of bullshit, my hype for this game has dropped to zero now. This is unacceptable.
i might quit gaming if this shit continues, with this and the market being saturated by shitty minigames and bullshit ports, it's looking bleak.
i might quit gaming if this shit continues, with this and the market being saturated by shitty minigames and bullshit ports, it's looking bleak.
Vyse The Legend
Member
-1 sales for Condemned 2
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
Such pussies, i swear...
Demigod Mac
Member
Holy hell, what a lot of chicken littles.
You folks seem to forget that this is something that will have growing pains. Society won't adjust easily to this sort of interactivity crossed with wanton violence. It's a gradual process. It's going to take time. There will be setbacks like this, of course, but overall, the progressive movement is inevitable and unstoppable, and there's nothing the censors can do to stop it long-term.
You forget how far we've come. Play Mortal Kombat 1 again - it raised hell back in the day; today, its violence is so silly that it looks comical. People don't give a damn about games with an MK1 level of violence anymore; they come out every month and nobody says a word, not even Jack Thompson. Remember how shocked the censors were about Sub-zero tearing off a dude's head and buckets of blood hitting the floor? That happens in today's Ninja Gaiden and the same people who bitched about MK1 don't blink an eye. They're going after the next level of violent entertainment because they lost that battle. And they're going to lose this one as well. Perhaps not as soon as we'd all like, but it's going to happen.
One of these days, games with [uncensored] Manhunt 2 violence will be released without so much a hitch.
You folks seem to forget that this is something that will have growing pains. Society won't adjust easily to this sort of interactivity crossed with wanton violence. It's a gradual process. It's going to take time. There will be setbacks like this, of course, but overall, the progressive movement is inevitable and unstoppable, and there's nothing the censors can do to stop it long-term.
You forget how far we've come. Play Mortal Kombat 1 again - it raised hell back in the day; today, its violence is so silly that it looks comical. People don't give a damn about games with an MK1 level of violence anymore; they come out every month and nobody says a word, not even Jack Thompson. Remember how shocked the censors were about Sub-zero tearing off a dude's head and buckets of blood hitting the floor? That happens in today's Ninja Gaiden and the same people who bitched about MK1 don't blink an eye. They're going after the next level of violent entertainment because they lost that battle. And they're going to lose this one as well. Perhaps not as soon as we'd all like, but it's going to happen.
One of these days, games with [uncensored] Manhunt 2 violence will be released without so much a hitch.