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[Darchaos]

Marathong, the little shitgame that couldn`t

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

How many of those are Omega Genre with a budget of $250M?

Hunt Showdown and Escape from Tarkov can be added to that list.

Plenty of games grow without earth shattering updates and few of them do so with 400 AAA devs.

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

To turn things around you need to get very humble and bow down to the community in a way Bungie is not used to. They are not even prepared for that conversation, just like most western studios who refuse to leave their bubble of narcissism.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Please explain what earth shattering updates happened with...

- Rainbow Six Siege

They spent years fixing all the technical issues that plagued it at launch and were the main cause for the borked release in the first place.

- Deep Rock Galactic

Was considered great and successful from the very beginning. All that was left was keep updating it and garnering players as its humble starts were solely due to them being a small indie team.

- Rust

Same as above. Not sure why you brought these two up.

- For Honor

Core game had always been praised. Main issues at launch were mainly technical, especially networking, which were fixed over time.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

To turn things around you need to get very humble and bow down to the community in a way Bungie is not used to. They are not even prepared for that conversation, just like most western studios who refuse to leave their bubble of narcissism.

It also helps if the costs to support the game are low. A game like Marathon with 100s of Bungie employees working on it isnt cheap. And with the game being in the red already a ton of money how many companies are going to eat the big loss and risk eating more?

Games like No Man's Sky has like 10 people at the company and it sold millions of copies so they can float it. I remember seeing pics of their old office. It looked like a dumpy building.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

They spent years fixing all the technical issues that plagued it at launch and were the main cause for the borked release in the first place.


Was considered great and successful from the very beginning. All that was left was keep garnering players as its humble starts were solely due to them being a small indie team.


Same as above. Not sure why you brought these two up.


Core game had always been praised. Main issues at launch were mainly technical, especially networking, which were fixed over time.

Dude lists 0 earth shattering updates. WTF...

 

[Mengy]

Please explain what earth shattering updates happened with...

- Rainbow Six Siege
- Deep Rock Galactic
- Rust
- For Honor

- DRG started with low CCU's and has a relatively small team, and they gradually improved the game which gradually increased player counts. They were able to No Man's Sky the game due to a small budget and perseverance. Bungie does not have this luxury.
- Same with Rainbow 6 Seige, except Ubisoft has a large portfolio of games and revenues which enabled it. Again something Bungie does not have, Destiny II is doing just as bad as Marathon.
- Again, Rust started small and gradually grew big, and again they had revenues from other games to allow them to do so. Rust has more people in game right now than Marathon has ever had playing, including during the server slam.
- For Honor is just as dead as Marathon and has nearly always been, its never been a massive success. But again, Ubisoft makes enough money to float it if they want to, again Bungie does not have that luxury with their huge team and large expenses.

Your examples are very poor, do you have any better ones to prove your point?

 

[Guilty_AI]

Dude lists 0 earth shattering updates. WTF...

3 out of the 4 games you listed weren't even poorly received to begin with. R6S earth shattering update was an year and a half of fixing their super bugged game

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

- DRG started with low CCU's and has a relatively small team, and they gradually improved the game which gradually increased player counts. They were able to No Man's Sky the game due to a small budget and perseverance. Bungie does not have this luxury.

Having fewer resources has its drawbacks. 400+ AAA devs will be able to improve Marathon significantly quicker over the next 6 months than what a small team could.

- Same with Rainbow 6 Seige, except Ubisoft has a large portfolio of games and revenues which enabled it. Again something Bungie does not have, Destiny II is doing just as bad as Marathon.

Sony doesn't have a large portfolio of games and revenues?

- Again, Rust started small and gradually grew big, and again they had revenues from other games to allow them to do so. Rust has more people in game right now than Marathon has ever had playing, including during the server slam.

But again, no earth shattering updates. You see how quickly you're attempting to move goalposts?

- For Honor is just as dead as Marathon and has nearly always been, its never been a massive success. But again, Ubisoft makes enough money to float it if they want to, again Bungie does not have that luxury with their huge team and large expenses.

For Honor is so dead it's on its 47th season.

Your examples are very poor, do you have any better ones to prove your point?

My examples were so poor that you clumsily attempted to avoid my question entirely.

What earth shattering updates improved the player populations of the game above?

I guess your lack of an answer was an answer in itself.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

3 out of the 4 games you listed weren't even poorly received to begin with. R6S earth shattering update was an year and a half of fixing their super bugged game

They all had worse user reviews than Marathon. They all had smaller player populations than Marathon. They all had fewer resources than Bungie.

Your words are consistently lacking any meaning now.

 

[Saber]

To turn things around you need to get very humble and bow down to the community in a way Bungie is not used to. They are not even prepared for that conversation, just like most western studios who refuse to leave their bubble of narcissism.

Modern western trend is about being on twitter trashtalking and attacking customers.

 

[Hollywood Hitman]

Modern western trend is about being on twitter trashtalking and attacking customers.

Yea man that's where and why I am so over some of these devs, when they open their fucking faces on Twitter it's when I'm like yea ok your game can burn. Bungie has pissed me off lately with their rhetoric so it's why I absolutely love seeing this.

 

[Cumulus]

They all had worse user reviews than Marathon. They all had smaller player populations than Marathon. They all had fewer resources than Bungie.

you forgot that itsy bitsy part about them also only having a tiny fraction of Marathon`s budget and what those resources you speak of mean in upkeep cost..... The financial risk to stick with those examples was laughable compared to Marathon. Best you can hope for is sunk cost fallacy.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

They all had worse user reviews than Marathon. They all had smaller player populations than Marathon. They all had fewer resources than Bungie.

And none of those games come close to what it cost to make Marathon. And to keep supporting it.

Dont play the user review card. Means zero. Marathon is ranked over 6,000th on Steam review % beside these games.

 

[Guilty_AI]

They all had worse user reviews than Marathon.

You're basing yourself off steam reviews? Terrible metric to see how much players actually like the game. Mixed reviews are more often than not just complaints of technical issues (case in point, monster hunter games)

They all had smaller player populations than Marathon. They all had fewer resources than Bungie.

You countered your own point in two setences. Less resources, less budget, less players needed to be successful.

Your words are consistently lacking any meaning now.

We were talking about earth shattering updates turning games around, and you bring 3 games that didn't need turning around and a 4th that did have one.

 

[Bernardougf]

Look at that stack of players, lol

This whole game looks like a windows error screen

 

[zaga]

Dont play the user review card. Means zero. Marathon is ranked over 6,000th on Steam review % beside these games.

Server maintence happens today (no games for a few hours) so that might be what you are seeing. (I don't know what the sort column is)

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Server maintence happens today (no games for a few hours) so that might be what you are seeing. (I don't know what the sort column is)

Positive Steam ratings %. Marathon at 83.83% right beside a ton of noname indie games and demos. The purple column is number of reviews. The far right column is peak CCU.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

you forgot that itsy bitsy part about them also only having a tiny fraction of Marathon`s budget and what those resources you speak of mean in upkeep cost..... The financial risk to stick with those examples was laughable compared to Marathon. Best you can hope for is sunk cost fallacy.

No, I'm not forgetting that at all.

Marathons larger budget is an advantage to its turnaround rate. It's a detriment to its long term chances.

Players didn't come back to those games because they knew the budget of each. They came back because small meaningful improvements can have a positive impact on player retention.

 

[Mengy]

Having fewer resources has its drawbacks. 400+ AAA devs will be able to improve Marathon significantly quicker over the next 6 months than what a small team could.

Sony doesn't have a large portfolio of games and revenues?

But again, no earth shattering updates. You see how quickly you're attempting to move goalposts?

For Honor is so dead it's on its 47th season.

My examples were so poor that you clumsily attempted to avoid my question entirely.

What earth shattering updates improved the player populations of the game above?

I guess your lack of an answer was an answer in itself.

I honestly sometimes can't tell if you are serious or trolling masterfully!

Time will tell. We'll see if Bungie can save the sinking Marathon or not, and we'll likely have our answer over the next few months. Sony is not known for their financial patience, nor for keeping money losing games or studios around...

For the record I want Bungie to succeed by the way, I don't want them to be closed down. I'd love it if Marathon was a game I wanted to play, and I'd love it if Bungie turned it into something I could play. I just don't expect them to.

 

[Guilty_AI]

No, I'm not forgetting that at all.

Marathons larger budget is an advantage to its turnaround rate. It's a detriment to its long term chances.

Players didn't come back to those games because they knew the budget of each. They came back because small meaningful improvements can have a positive impact on player retention.

They never left most of them though. Are you really just gonna keep running with the assumption games like DRG and Rust weren't successful stories from its origins? The others were also considered good but had technical issues, people came back when they were fixed and could properly enjoy the game they already liked

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

And none of those games come close to what it cost to make Marathon. And to keep supporting it.

Dont play the user review card. Means zero. Marathon is ranked over 6,000th on Steam review % beside these games.

You guys are changing goalposts so fast, and I'm hitting it through the uprights every time. It's hilarious.

At first it was "Only games with earth shattering updates can turn it around".

I killed that theory.

Then it was "But those games were positively recieved".

I killed that theory.

Now it's moving to a budgetary argument.

I've already said numerous times that Bungies superior resources (400+ devs) will improve its chances to turn things around in the short term, but lowers its chances long term if metrics don't improve.

I'm like Christian Bale in Equilibrium.

 

[Guilty_AI]

At first it was "Only games with earth shattering updates can turn it around".

I killed that theory.

You didn't

Then it was "But those games were positively recieved".

I killed that theory.

In your head maybe

 

[Cumulus]

At first it was "Only games with earth shattering updates can turn it around".

I killed that theory.

Then it was "But those games were positively recieved".

I killed that theory.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I've never met any goalpost movers who admit to moving goalposts.

 

[Guilty_AI]

I've never met any goalpost movers who admit to moving goalposts.

You still haven't shown any game that turned failure around without major updates and changes

 

[StreetsofBeige]

You guys are changing goalposts so fast, and I'm hitting it through the uprights every time. It's hilarious.

At first it was "Only games with earth shattering updates can turn it around".

I killed that theory.

Then it was "But those games were positively recieved".

I killed that theory.

Now it's moving to a budgetary argument.

I've already said numerous times that Bungies superior resources (400+ devs) will improve its chances to turn things around in the short term, but lowers its chances long term if metrics don't improve.

I'm like Christian Bale in Equilibrium.

Not changing anything. I read your post and replied to it in isolation. You brought up comparing scores to Marathon. I'm just replying saying all kinds of weird games can have good scores.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Not changing anything. I read your post and replied to it in isolation. You brought up comparing scores to Marathon. I'm just replying saying all kinds of weird games can have good scores.

I'm just saying that I'm Christian Bale and the lot of you are the government agents in Equilibrium. I'm doing forum post ballet around you grunts.

 

[Timberwolf25]

^ Someone is off their meds again

 

[JayK47]

It occurs, if it gets as low as say 5k, and people literally can't play any more as they can't find matched, like 2 months into the game. What does Sony do? Like the obvious option is to shut it down…as they are also burning about $8m/month at current staff levels. But people paid like £40 for this game. Shutting it down two months in?…that's like "everyone needs refunding" territory….which is a good $100mil

It is almost like they are dragging it out simply to avoid refunds.

 

[DarkShadowXI]

I'm just saying that I'm Christian Bale and the lot of you are the government agents in Equilibrium. I'm doing forum post ballet around you grunts.

 

[Zacfoldor]

Remember this started with the conversation that Marathon was goty.

People said the bleed was tougher to address than in other games because there is nothing to fix and the game was perfect.

imho the biggest issue facing Marathon besides the poor launch and reception is the lack of SBMM which creates a viscous cycle.

SBMM penalizes high skilled players and rewards low skilled players.

Adding new content is a given but any sandbox updates need to be focused on making the turbosweats have a worse time and the n00bs get easy wins.

So you have a game that came out in an uncompromised state. A hardcore PvP game made for fans of that type of game.

Now they are in the position of trying to soften that game which could make it lose its identity.

 

[Zannegan]

Some teacher in high school told him he was special, and he took that to heart (and maybe misunderstood).

In all seriousness, he is either a master class troll, or he genuinely believes that he's single handedly (and with one hand tied behind his back) fighting off the anti-GaaS regressive hoard. Either way, he's a lot of fun to have around.

 

[Cumulus]

I'm just saying that I'm Christian Bale and the lot of you are the government agents in Equilibrium. I'm doing forum post ballet around you grunts.

More like

 

[Zacfoldor]

Also the people coming back for S2 will be super skilled. So no SBMM means the sweats who never quit will be thrown in with the gen pop when the s2 bump hits.

New players who just buy the game during S2 will have a really hard time because the game is about learning the finer points of sound on the individual maps which is a lot of content to memorize. It will take a whole season of getting pwned to catch up with learning map noises.

Leveling while more difficult with low skills, is more a function of time played than skill, so time played is not a good way to match players. Some of the worse players of games I have ever known have thousands of hours on one game but they still suck.

Playing WoW raids back in the day it was always the raid leaders girlfriend who sucked so bad we wiped all the time. Yet she collected more mats for the bank than any other member. It's a different kind of player. Some players play constantly but never learn from their play. LBMM is not a good MM.

Also, lol, this thread is wild.

 

[Moridianae]

Why is it that the lower it goes and the more dire the situation becomes day by day, there is a sudden increase of a Man in Box in this thread?

 

[Zacfoldor]

Why is it that the lower it goes and the more dire the situation becomes day by day, there is a sudden increase of a Man in Box in this thread?

Newton's third law of motion states that for every action (force) in nature, there is an equal and opposite reaction. If Object A exerts a force on Object B, Object B simultaneously exerts a force of equal magnitude and opposite direction back on Object A. These forces always occur in pairs, act on different objects, and do not cancel each other out.

If Men_in_Boxes wasn't here, someone else would rise to take his place. Newton's law demands it.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

I'm just saying that I'm Christian Bale and the lot of you are the government agents in Equilibrium. I'm doing forum post ballet around you grunts.

You don't fool me, you just like poking these people

 

[Ben87fr]

The turd that won't flush...

 

[Zacfoldor]

On a side note, the film Equilibrium is my spirit animal.

 

[Boo Who?]

You guys are changing goalposts so fast, and I'm hitting it through the uprights every time. It's hilarious.

I'm like Christian Bale in Equilibrium.

I think its more like this for those two sentences.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

You don't fool me, you just like poking these people

Men_in_Boxes:

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I think its more like this for those two sentences.

Nah.

The swiftness you guys move from "Needs earth shattering update" to "Those games were positively recieved" to "But Marathons budget!" can not be refuted.

Nobody here, except the Christian Bale of NeoGAF, wants to address the friction points of their position. You can all do much better and you should try to.

 

[Boo Who?]

LOL, I played Marathon for nearly 50 hours and liked it. I dropped it a few weeks ago because there are major problems, and one of them is players. The game is dead. Bungie is talking out both sides of their mouths if you think this game is going to last.

 

[The Mad Draklor]

In all seriousness, he is either a master class troll, or he genuinely believes that he's single handedly (and with one hand tied behind his back) fighting off the anti-GaaS regressive hoard. Either way, he's a lot of fun to have around.

There's an even simpler explanation:

The Sunk Cost Fallacy - The Decision Lab

The Sunk Cost Fallacy describes our tendency to follow through on an endeavor if we have already invested time, effort, or money into it, whether or not the current costs outweigh the benefits.

thedecisionlab.com

The sunk cost fallacy is our tendency to follow through with something that we've already invested heavily in (be it time, money, effort, or emotional energy), even when giving up is clearly a better idea.

 

[BbMajor7th]

I'd say you can draw more meaningful comparisons from:

Suicide Squad (WB)
Rumbleverse (Epic)
Anthem (EA)
Marvel's Avengers (SE, Marvel)
XDefiant (Ubisoft)
MultiVersus (WB)

These games all had huge backers and big experienced teams behind them and they all made significant updates before being sunset. I'd argue this is the most likely outcome for a new live service game now, and that likelihood goes up the greater the investment behind it.

But this should always have been obvious: live service games are massive, massive time sinks, and the only thing you can't get more of in this life is time. Single player games side-step this problem almost entirely by allowing people to buy games that they might not have time to play, let alone finish. Live service games can't survive in someone's backlog - they have to be on regular rotation with a reasonable number of players, or they die. Not only that, they often need cultural buy-in too: influencers and streamers need to be playing them, communities need to be talking about them.

And this is why you see live service plateauing now. The amount of time players have to spend on live service gaming is more or less maxed out. And it's a compounding effect, because it means more live service failures, which makes people more cautious about investing in new live services, which in turn causes more failures, and so on it goes.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

I'm doing forum post ballet around you grunts.

Yeah... The gayest thing ever

 

[Mengy]

Men_in_Boxes:

Off topic, but Equilibrium is a damn fine film.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I'd say you can draw more meaningful comparisons from:

Suicide Squad (WB)
Rumbleverse (Epic)
Anthem (EA)
Marvel's Avengers (SE, Marvel)
XDefiant (Ubisoft)
MultiVersus (WB)

These games all had huge backers and big experienced teams behind them and they all made significant updates before being sunset. I'd argue this is the most likely outcome for a new live service game now, and that likelihood goes up the greater the investment behind it.

But this should always have been obvious: live service games are massive, massive time sinks, and the only thing you can't get more of in this life is time. Single player games side-step this problem almost entirely by allowing people to buy games that they might not have time to play, let alone finish. Live service games can't survive in someone's backlog - they have to be on regular rotation with a reasonable number of players, or they die. Not only that: they often need cultural buy-in too: influencers and streamers need to be playing them, communities need to be talking about them.

And this is why you see live service plateauing now. The amount of time players have to spend on live service gaming is more or less maxed out. And it's a compounding effect, because it means more live service failures, which makes people more cautious about investing in new live services, which in turn causes more failures, and so on it goes.

Probably best to stick with PvP games, and the Extraction genre specifically considering Marathon is a PvP Extraction Shooter.

Hunt Showdown and Escape from Tarkov both grew over time as a result of small, non earth shattering, updates. If any PvP Extraction Shooter is going to turn things around quickly, it'll be Marathon and it's team of 400+.

The rest of your post looks like it was written in 2021. Every year we get that argument and every year the GAAS market grows. PlayStations financials are coming up. Maybe this year is finally the year the market became saturated.

 

[GermanZepp]

Look at that stack of players, lol

i don't even know what i'm looking at