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[rkofan87]

Marathon recieved higher user reviews, higher critic reviews, and had better player retention than all 4 of those games.


Marathon is crazy hardcore. It's not casual at all. It needs SBMM.

 

[diffusionx]

 

[Conflict NZ]

So they announce a change/update with experimental queue and there's a sharp, sudden uptick in CCU. Like yesterday I ask, who are these people who just sit around and jump on almost immediately when there's a patch during a weekday?

 

[Hollywood Hitman]

I think it's funny in the main thread when they are allowed to critique and say the game probably won't make it it's all good, yet if any of us say it were obsessed retards

It's just funny I go to work and do my day, get home game a bit or cut grass, hang with my dogs, wife gets home we eat and watch a show or two, I play some slots... Yet when I grab my phone a bit to see what's the haps around here, laugh at marathon a bit, I'm just obviously obsessed

 

[Darchaos]

I think it's funny in the main thread when they are allowed to critique and say the game probably won't make it it's all good, yet if any of us say it were obsessed retards

It's just funny I go to work and do my day, get home game a bit or cut grass, hang with my dogs, wife gets home we eat and watch a show or two, I play some slots... Yet when I grab my phone a bit to see what's the haps around here, laugh at marathon a bit, I'm just obviously obsessed

Thats all the 4 guys have that plays this shit in that thread, call other people retards. When one of them shows up in a thread its like: Oh great, here comes the local towndrunk and screams for a bit. And then the original conversation goes on like nothing happened.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

You know I love you like that one eyed cat I feed sardines to, but won't let in the house right? If I was in Brazil right now, I'd let you watch City of God through my window brother.

I'm sorry, I don't speak Spanish.

You've touched on a real problem with how the game is being described though. Take Helldivers II - friendly fire, squishy characters, revive mechanic. Does that quanitfy as hardcore? The main issue is that people are calling the game hardcore to describe the skill ceiling. 'Marathon is hardcore' and that means people are dropping off/leaving. People making progress and having better gear is equated to a high skill ceiling, when in fact it is more about abusing the meta and poor game design.

Hardcore: A combination of attributes such as a high degree of punishment, small windows for success and a high degree of depth. Anyone who thinks Marathon isn't a hardcore game is honestly not worth conversing with.

Look at the Siege CCU - that's a healthy game that is intimidating to newcomers yet manages to retain them. Why? Because players feel the improvement curve as they play more from their own skill. There's no feeling of being at a disadvantage from a gear, attachment or gadget pov. Even when you had to use renown for attachments you never felt they were game changing. And it has reinvented itself multiple times. It's also fair - you lose, you reset, next game everyone back on even footing. Marathon you lose, and your disadvantage compounds.

One of the main reasons why I thought Marathon would pull better numbers is because I saw the gameplay as largely the same as Rainbow Six Siege, Valorant, and Counter Strike...only with exponentially better progression hooks.

I had a blind spot.

What I did not see was that those 3 games have relatively high "fun floors" meaning that the lack of meaningful punishment and quicker respawns meant you couldn't really have too miserable an experience. I love Marathon but I've gone hour long stretches where I'm thinking "This game f**king sucks..." That feeling never happens in Siege, Valorant, or Counter Strike.

Marathon has higher highs than those games, but Bungie needs to mitigate the significantly lower lows.

Marathon literally has nowhere to go right now

After 200+ hours of Marathon...I think you're dead wrong here.

Concord had nowhere to go.
Spectre Divide had nowhere to go.
XDefiant had nowhere to go.

Marathon has more places to go than 99% of PvP games in existence. The Omega genre is like the expanding universe - only limited by its creators imagination.

I think Season 2 will bring 5 key changes that should have a big impact on CCU...

1. A proper solo & duos mode.
2. A shrinking of the skill gap.
3. Stronger map differentiation.
4. A Rook rework (though this may come later)
5. A reduction in wet fart engagments via new loot/sound changes/weapon balancing.

Outside of those relatively easy fixes, they just have to continue working on what they were going to work on had Marathon blown up 10x bigger - Maps, Runners, Progression improvements.

I'm sure the Wright Brothers were told to pack it up just before they landed on a design that flew. A few small but meaningful adjustments can do wonders.

- in fact after thinking a while I actually think increasing the lethality would be better for Marathon. No revives might actually stop these squads trying to gank others if they are dropped to spectate when clipped and their buddies are still playing - risk. Those moments you get in R6, CS, COD and Valorant with clutch 1 v 3 are just not possible in Marathon. You occassionally get a decent rook clip, or someone who takes a poor matchmade team by surprise but you never really feel there is a tense battle which led to a proper seat of the pants clutch moment.

I agree 100% but I don't think it'll stay this way.

I've said it a half dozen times before but I don't think the tribalists have the cognitive ability to comprehend...

Poker with guns only makes sense when you're playing with 2 teammates who's skill you respect and who's personality you click with. Poker with guns makes absolutely no sense with free kits & random teammates with no mics...which is a huge percentage of the game for a lot of people.

The more I've thought about it though, I'm not sure just dropping PvE will sort this out. I think if they wanted to do this going away and relaunching as Marathon: <subtitle> it might work. But looking at games like toxiccommando already struggling for PvE players due to population, and even mp modes like Yotei legends can quickly kill any enthusiasm. Then the question is will it tempt people to part with $40? Well, not just one quickly cobbled together mode, no.

The suggestion to drop PvP Extraction in favor of some PvE single player mode is silly. They spent 5+ years making this. They need to keep focusing on their vision.

The reason that the discussions of how to 'fix' Marathon are so nebulous and broad is because aside from the art style, it just doesn't have a strong enough identity. Generally speaking people are not playing Arc as an extraction shooter and it is finding an audience. People are not playing Marathon like an extraction shooter and it's dying.

I think you're looking at a few scoops of vanilla ice cream and saying "This will never be a hot fudge Sunday". Marathon is the only sci fi, arena shooter DNA based Extraction Shooter on earth. It's identity is strong, it just needs to be built out.

It really is in Early Access.

 

[purvispisgah]

I'm sorry, I don't speak Spanish.


Hardcore: A combination of attributes such as a high degree of punishment, small windows for success and a high degree of depth. Anyone who thinks Marathon isn't a hardcore game is honestly not worth conversing with.


One of the main reasons why I thought Marathon would pull better numbers is because I saw the gameplay as largely the same as Rainbow Six Siege, Valorant, and Counter Strike...only with exponentially better progression hooks.

I had a blind spot.

What I did not see was that those 3 games have relatively high "fun floors" meaning that the lack of meaningful punishment and quicker respawns meant you couldn't really have too miserable an experience. I love Marathon but I've gone hour long stretches where I'm thinking "This game f**king sucks..." That feeling never happens in Siege, Valorant, or Counter Strike.

Marathon has higher highs than those games, but Bungie needs to mitigate the significantly lower lows.


After 200+ hours of Marathon...I think you're dead wrong here.

Concord had nowhere to go.
Spectre Divide had nowhere to go.
XDefiant had nowhere to go.

Marathon has more places to go than 99% of PvP games in existence. The Omega genre is like the expanding universe - only limited by its creators imagination.

I think Season 2 will bring 5 key changes that should have a big impact on CCU...

1. A proper solo & duos mode.
2. A shrinking of the skill gap.
3. Stronger map differentiation.
4. A Rook rework (though this may come later)
5. A reduction in wet fart engagments via new loot/sound changes/weapon balancing.

Outside of those relatively easy fixes, they just have to continue working on what they were going to work on had Marathon blown up 10x bigger - Maps, Runners, Progression improvements.

I'm sure the Wright Brothers were told to pack it up just before they landed on a design that flew. A few small but meaningful adjustments can do wonders.


I agree 100% but I don't think it'll stay this way.

I've said it a half dozen times before but I don't think the tribalists have the cognitive ability to comprehend...

Poker with guns only makes sense when you're playing with 2 teammates who's skill you respect and who's personality you click with. Poker with guns makes absolutely no sense with free kits & random teammates with no mics...which is a huge percentage of the game for a lot of people.


The suggestion to drop PvP Extraction in favor of some PvE single player mode is silly. They spent 5+ years making this. They need to keep focusing on their vision.

I think you're looking at a few scoops of vanilla ice cream and saying "This will never be a hot fudge Sunday". Marathon is the only sci fi, arena shooter DNA based Extraction Shooter on earth. It's identity is strong, it just needs to be built out.

It really is in Early Access.

Can you at least admit the possibility that the artstyle is such a turn off that there might be an upper popularity limit regardless of what changes they make to the mechanics?

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Can you at least admit the possibility that the artstyle is such a turn off that there might be an upper popularity limit regardless of what changes they make to the mechanics?

No, the artstyle is fine. PvP players don't care what the Chess pieces look like.

 

[Germuso]

Battlefield 6 sold more than 20 million copies and it's only 32k on steam.

Arc riders is now 70K but it was 220k in december, every month is doing -10K.

Long service games are dead, there is no more place.

Why cant devs read the situation.

 

[Mengy]

No, the artstyle is fine. PvP players don't care what the Chess pieces look like.

People looking to buy cosmetics do.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

People looking to buy cosmetics do.

Nah. Game comes first.

You like the game, you buy the cosmetics. You're putting the cart before the horse there.

 

[Ribi]

Battlefield 6 sold more than 20 million copies and it's only 32k on steam.

Arc riders is now 70K but it was 220k in december, every month is doing -10K.

Long service games are dead, there is no more place.

Why cant devs read the situation.

Milk it. Get your season passes. Support for 2-3 years then build part 2

 

[Draugoth]

 

[Timberwolf25]

server maintenance more than likely

 

[Venzik]

4. A Rook rework (though this may come later)

Marathon XIV: A Rook Reworked

 

[StreetsofBeige]

10 pm completed hour CCU. Surprisingly flat to yesterday at 13.4k. Weds have always been a down day
All time peak was launch day 88.3k. Today's peak at 13.4k is -74.9k or -85%

Today vs yesterday: 13.4k vs 13.4k (flat)

Yesterday's low 3.9k. If the rate holds, low tonight will be 3.9k

Wed vs Wed: 13.4k vs 15.2k (-1.8k or -12%). Much better than the historic changes of -20%

Ratio method to estimate peaks and valleys
Mon-Thur 3.3:1. For example, a peak of 15k will have a low of 4.5k. For Fri/Sat, gamers stay up playing so the ratio is 2.5:1

Steam Rankings
Daily Active Users: 134
Global Top Sellers: 171
Weekly Top Sellers: Unknown. Not on top 100
Top Rated Games: 6,091 (83.79%)

 

[Venzik]

Nah. Game comes first.

You like the game, you buy the cosmetics. You're putting the cart before the horse there.

The difference being: These skins are ugly in a logical way -- rooted in the gameworld and artfully contrasted against the natural forests and beaches of the map. It reinforces the idea of a physical world where things can and do actually happen. They are wearing pieces of broken wood objects, street signs, and old hazmat PPE as armor. They are making use of the garbage they find to protect themselves.

These would actually be sick designs for an extraction game because at any given point your inventory is filled with garbage that you are fighting tooth and nail to keep.

Marathon designs are ugly in an abstract way. Like a car without wheels that is buffed and polished until the details are indistinct.
The car can be whatever it wants -- I don't really care. But before it dreams about flying...
It shouldn't forget that I need it to go pick up beer and pizza around the corner sometimes.

Do you understand?

 

[StreetsofBeige]

The difference being: These skins are ugly in a logical way -- rooted in the gameworld and artfully contrasted against the natural forests and beaches of the map. It reinforces the idea of a physical world where things can and do actually happen. They are wearing pieces of broken wood objects, street signs, and old hazmat PPE as armor. They are making use of the garbage they find to protect themselves.

These would actually be sick designs for an extraction game because at any given point your inventory is filled with garbage that you are fighting tooth and nail to keep.

Marathon designs are ugly in an abstract way. Like a car without wheels that is buffed and polished until the details are indistinct.
The car can be whatever it wants -- I don't really care. But before it dreams about flying...
It shouldn't forget that I need it to go pick up beer and pizza around the corner sometimes.

Do you understand?

Exactly.

Marathon has such ugly art to begin with it instantly turned off gamers no matter what niche genre it was. It makes no sense to have blinding lego brick sci fi as a extraction shooter because the point of it is to scavenge junk and survive to escape. That's why the other extraction games' settings make much better sense and cooler.

It's like Star Wars and Star Trek. SW has rebels on dusty planets with often ragtag gear and dirty hideouts. ST is ultra clean, neat and everything in the universe seems to work through that tricorder.

It would make zero sense to have Star Trek spaceships suddenly be the desperate rebels being in dry cleaned uniforms and super spiffy federation headquarters etc...

But Marathon is trying to convince extraction gamers (already a small subset of overall shooter gamers), that a sci game that resembles Mirrors Edge and Splatoon is a desperate world to escape from similar to Tarkov or ARC. Gamers dont buy it. Most people could see that a mile a way it wouldnt work.

 

[Conflict NZ]

10 pm completed hour CCU. Surprisingly flat to yesterday at 13.4k. Weds have always been a down day

They changed Sponsored to Perimeter and removed Grey sponsored kits so everyone gets green now, that's why it suddenly shot up at 22UTC and avoided having a horrific day. It would've been sub 12.5K otherwise. I find it really funny that there appears to be a group of people that hang out for any update and then immediately jump on to play and disappear within a day.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

Do you understand?

 

[StreetsofBeige]

They changed Sponsored to Perimeter and removed Grey sponsored kits so everyone gets green now, that's why it suddenly shot up at 22UTC and avoided having a horrific day. It would've been sub 12.5K otherwise. I find it really funny that there appears to be a group of people that hang out for any update and then immediately jump on to play and disappear within a day.

No wonder. I just checked and ya, it was down vs yesterday all day including UTC 22:00. Then shot up.

 

[Hollywood Hitman]

No, the artstyle is fine. PvP players don't care what the Chess pieces look like.

I'm a pvp player and it's shit. The art style is akin to buying farts in a jar.

 

[falconhoof]

They changed Sponsored to Perimeter and removed Grey sponsored kits so everyone gets green now, that's why it suddenly shot up at 22UTC and avoided having a horrific day. It would've been sub 12.5K otherwise. I find it really funny that there appears to be a group of people that hang out for any update and then immediately jump on to play and disappear within a day.

No wonder. I just checked and ya, it was down vs yesterday all day including UTC 22:00. Then shot up.

Wow, if that's the case then all they managed to do was retain the players from yesterday. The numbers today were crazy close to yesterday, at some points we're talking differences of about 15.

With such a small base and regular play patterns, it's giving me the feeling that the game is not selling at all and is now just gripping onto those final 100k sweats.

My DAU calculation for the last four hour slice is 25k, basically covering the NA region. Frankly that number could be lower as the sweats are actually playing longer than the 2hr session average I'm using.

 

[Venzik]

I'm a pvp player and it's shit. The art style is akin to buying farts in a jar.

#jarfartgenre

 

[CrustyBritches]

I'm a pvp player and it's shit. The art style is akin to buying farts in a jar.

Jankem.

PS- Don't Google that.

 

[Embearded]

Can you at least admit the possibility that the artstyle is such a turn off that there might be an upper popularity limit regardless of what changes they make to the mechanics?

Thats exactly why I can't play the game. The art style is terrible.

 

[Conflict NZ]

Wow, if that's the case then all they managed to do was retain the players from yesterday. The numbers today were crazy close to yesterday, at some points we're talking differences of about 15.

With such a small base and regular play patterns, it's giving me the feeling that the game is not selling at all and is now just gripping onto those final 100k sweats.

My DAU calculation for the last four hour slice is 25k, basically covering the NA region. Frankly that number could be lower as the sweats are actually playing longer than the 2hr session average I'm using.

On Xbox at least Marathon was the highest in terms of session length in April. The few people that are playing it are playing really long sessions.

 

[MayauMiao]

 

[Majima Everywhere System]

I'm worried if I support Stop Killing Games that it might mean Marathon is here to stay. I'm torn up over this.

 

[RafterXL]

I think it's funny in the main thread when they are allowed to critique and say the game probably won't make it it's all good, yet if any of us say it were obsessed retards

It's just funny I go to work and do my day, get home game a bit or cut grass, hang with my dogs, wife gets home we eat and watch a show or two, I play some slots... Yet when I grab my phone a bit to see what's the haps around here, laugh at marathon a bit, I'm just obviously obsessed

That shit stopped working on me a long time ago. I post about this "drama" less than most of the people who say stuff like this and 90% of my time isn't even thinking about gaming in general, much less Marathon or Saros or whatever the latest shit show is. No one is "obsessed"talking about this stuff, it takes all of 5 secs to make a post on a forum, hardly life wasting obsession.

Bottom line, anyone saying stuff about you or your life over a few forum posts, because you shit on a video game or talk about modern day cancer in this industry, or whatever, is projecting because they don't have shit else going on but games and forum posting and they think that's how everyone lives.

 

[calico]

Outside of those relatively easy fixes, they just have to continue working on what they were going to work on had Marathon blown up 10x bigger - Maps, Runners, Progression improvements.

Delusional. Obviously if it had blown up 10x larger it would be evidence they were on the right track and that drastic action was not necessary.

Your assessment of why your launch prediction was so far off (miles out) is also flawed. Launch CCU is mostly dictated by how appealing the overall package seems (plus marketing). 3-4x as many people would not have picked it up at launch due to some gameplay difference even you (fully obsessed with the game) were unable to notice pre-launch. They would not even know the difference existed until after the fact.

The market briefly glanced at what was being offered and rejected it (especially the console market). The market is not making that initial judgement based on super specific gameplay details, so some larger, more easily noticeable factor/s caused that initial rejection.

 

[ValiantInstance]

Battlefield 6 sold more than 20 million copies and it's only 32k on steam.

Arc riders is now 70K but it was 220k in december, every month is doing -10K.

Long service games are dead, there is no more place.

Why cant devs read the situation.

Both of these examples are because neither studio put out enough new stuff to keep players interested. Dice have only just started reviewing the mechanics of the game like gun and vehicle balance.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Do you understand?

I understand why nerds were shoved in lockers back in high school now.

I'm a pvp player and it's shit. The art style is akin to buying farts in a jar.

You ain't PvP. There's a council of 7 PvP Kings on NeoGAF that convene every 4 years. You're a PvE peasant who is repeatedly rejected membership to the council. Stay in the fields and tend to your wheat my friend. We do not choose the life of nobility for it is something bestowed upon us by God.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Delusional. Obviously if it had blown up 10x larger it would be evidence they were on the right track and that drastic action was not necessary.

Your assessment of why your launch prediction was so far off (miles out) is also flawed. Launch CCU is mostly dictated by how appealing the overall package seems (plus marketing). 3-4x as many people would not have picked it up at launch due to some gameplay difference even you (fully obsessed with the game) were unable to notice pre-launch. They would not even know the difference existed until after the fact.

The market briefly glanced at what was being offered and rejected it (especially the console market). The market is not making that initial judgement based on super specific gameplay details, so some larger, more easily noticeable factor/s caused that initial rejection.

I honestly don't even know which game you're referring to here? Rainbow Six Siege? Rust? Marathon? Your post here could be addressing any of them.

 

[duck_sauce]

No, the artstyle is fine. PvP players don't care what the Chess pieces look like.

That must be why cosmetics and skins almost never sell in pvp games.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

That must be why cosmetics and skins almost never sell in pvp games.

The skins / Runners in Marathon are great. The game isn't failing because of its art style.

 

[Mengy]

The skins / Runners in Marathon are great. The game isn't failing because of its art style.

You might really believe this, but I do not. I feel the art style is a large factor in why the game is doing so poorly. Especially the characters themselves, maybe less so the environments and maps.

 

[Hollywood Hitman]

I understand why nerds were shoved in lockers back in high school now.


You ain't PvP. There's a council of 7 PvP Kings on NeoGAF that convene every 4 years. You're a PvE peasant who is repeatedly rejected membership to the council. Stay in the fields and tend to your wheat my friend. We do not choose the life of nobility for it is something bestowed upon us by God.

Sounds fucking gay, like Marathon

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

You might really believe this, but I do not. I feel the art style is a large factor in why the game is doing so poorly. Especially the characters themselves, maybe less so the environments and maps.

But you have not explained why the Runners in Marathon are significantly worse than the characters in Rust, PUBG, Fortnite, Counter Strike, League of Legends etc...

(Because that's impossible)

 

[diffusionx]

The art style of Marathon isn't bad, but it is very divisive and unlike every other big FPS, it doesn't lend itself to a lot of customizations where the devs can make lots of skins that appeal to a lot of people. They all have to fit within a relatively narrow window of like, dark sci fi/rubber latex fetish and if you don't dig that style you're just never going to spend a dime on a Marathon customization. Unlike with say COD or Fortnite where they sell all sorts of stupid bullshit costumes and put it in the game.

 

[cormack12]

Men_in_boxes loves skins

Foreskins

 

[Hollywood Hitman]

Men_in_boxes loves skins

Foreskins

He probably uses them as spices

Everyone in the world passes the salt, men in boxes asks to pass the foresalt

 

[Zacfoldor]

10 pm completed hour CCU. Surprisingly flat to yesterday at 13.4k. Weds have always been a down day
All time peak was launch day 88.3k. Today's peak at 13.4k is -74.9k or -85%

Today vs yesterday: 13.4k vs 13.4k (flat)

Yesterday's low 3.9k. If the rate holds, low tonight will be 3.9k

Wed vs Wed: 13.4k vs 15.2k (-1.8k or -12%). Much better than the historic changes of -20%

Ratio method to estimate peaks and valleys
Mon-Thur 3.3:1. For example, a peak of 15k will have a low of 4.5k. For Fri/Sat, gamers stay up playing so the ratio is 2.5:1

Steam Rankings
Daily Active Users: 134
Global Top Sellers: 171
Weekly Top Sellers: Unknown. Not on top 100
Top Rated Games: 6,091 (83.79%)

This dropped last night right before primetime and goosed the numbers a bit:

The way it was trending right after that news I thought it was gonna beat Tuesday but it didn't.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

This dropped last night right before primetime and goosed the numbers a bit:

The way it was trending right after that news I thought it was gonna beat Tuesday but it didn't.

If something that minor goosed the numbers, imagine the goosing that will happen for S2 launch...

 

[Venzik]

I understand why nerds were shoved in lockers back in high school now.

Nerds haven't been able to fit in lockers since the 50s. You must be ancient.
Marathon is probably a lot more fun if you're legally blind and just smackin your cane all around the keyboard.
I'll give you that much

 

[MayauMiao]

 

[Darchaos]

Na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na Shitgame shitgame shitgame Na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na shitgame!

 

[Kronark]

No, the artstyle is fine. PvP players don't care what the Chess pieces look like.

My dude, the entire e-sports industry is fueled by skins and cosmetics. What are you talking about?

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

My dude, the entire e-sports industry is fueled by skins and cosmetics. What are you talking about?

Cart before the horse.

Nobody buys or plays a PvP game because it has cool skins.

You buy cool skins because you play the PvP game.

The PvE mind is a rigid one.

 

[Hollywood Hitman]

Cart before the horse.

Nobody buys or plays a PvP game because it has cool skins.

You buy cool skins because you play the PvP game.

The PvE mind is a rigid one.

I don't know what's worse your off putting holier than thou attitude or this pos game