MrNyarlathotep
Banned
Thats not actually true. KB+M offer analogue aiming but not analogue movement.
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Mario 64 and FF7; two revolutionary games, which shaped/impacted the industry more?
- Thread starter enigmatic_alex44
- Start date
Thats not actually true. KB+M offer analogue aiming but not analogue movement.
Resident Evil wasn't a failure by any stretch though. And it came out a year before FF7.
This doesn't hold true for those familiar with the genre prior to VII. You can have enjoyed a game without it revolutionizing its genre, or the industry around it.
Only because Dark Souls has terrible mouse + keyboard controls. We have much more complex 3rd person games than Dark Souls on PC, like Jedi Outcast for example.
The lock-on function is basically aim assist for camera control and would serve no purpose on PC in a similar game.
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Not exactly required in any game and You could easily control movement speed with mouse wheel if You want, i'm pretty sure Splinter Cell did that.
Also many games use several keyboard inputs to change movement speed of a player.
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After. WSAD + Mouselook is John Romero's 'invention'.
Just WSAD was used by few RPG in the past too.
It didn't though. Games had it before, and let's at least praise a game that actually did something new with gameplay. What did FVii do new gameplay wise?
Assassin's Creed, Arkham and InFamous are all popular games with an emphasis on platforming. And most 3D series like GTA draw heavily from SM64s canera control system.
Thanks. I thought so instinctively but when I thought about what I'd written I thought they were not.
What exactly FFVII revolutionized compared to its predecessor FFVI? Or let's say compared to Chrono Trigger which is even far superior game than FFVII in every way from the same developer.
The biggest issue in this thread is people saying that Mario 64 only innovated in the 3D platformer space. Apparently, no other game involves moving around in a 3D environment other than 3D platformers. Might as well say that FFVII only innovated in the RPG space, so it's impact in story telling and cutscenes is worthless in any other genre.
But those games didn't fail, they just weren't part of your particular gaming experience.
I really think MGS was far more influential in how cinematics were used in games. The problem with FF7 style CG cinematics is that they were expensive and took up a lot of disc space. MGS resolved this with real-time cinemas that took less space (so there were many more of them), felt more integrated into the game, and could be edited and tweaked without having to re-render everything.
I do think FF7 changed the way videogames were advertised in the US, but that's almost a different subject entirely
Relaxed Muscle
Member
And we are talking about influence there and is indeniably that FF7 reached way more people than those games. MGS came later and built from FF7 foundations.
Calamari41
41 > 38
Isn't Jedi Outcast basically designed as a third person shooter though? And toggling movement speeds by pressing buttons on a keyboard while you're trying to move doesn't constitute "much greater control" than just pushing the analog stick softer or harder in my book.
The point I'm trying to get across is that these types of games, your Assassin's Creeds and GTAs and Dark Souls etc turn into third person shooter style games when you try to play them with a keyboard and mouse. Most people wouldn't hesitate to play them with a gamepad rather than keyboard and mouse.
MGS, Ocarina, Mario 64, and FF7 all sold within a million or two of each other, with Mario 64 being the top seller.
CastorTroy
Member
If someone honestly feels expensive cutscenes were more influential/important than NAILING FULL 3D MOVEMENT for the first time, well, that just speaks volumes about yourself.
marketing foundations?
what does MGS have to do with FFVII? lmao
jesus
this is just a bunch of empty "experience" words too though.
As others rightly said, going from 2D Mario, to what was THE most incredible, awe inspiring, unimaginably different and new game. Never mind the fact that Mario 64 WAS Mario in all its magic - in 3D. No, the magic and genius of Mario 64 is light years more important and greater than Quake...Mario 64 was also the first time a controller and a game were married so perfectly in harmony as well. Nintendo make games that are more like lucid dreams than regular games, that is what separates them to almost any other game developer imo.
You have an MGS-related avatar, and you don't think MGS was informed much more by Kojima's previous efforts with Snatcher and Policenauts? Those games blow FF7 away in terms of being cinematic, and MGS did not market itself the same way as FF7.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
Oh come on... that's not true.
Its not required in games where analogue movement isn't expected to be present, like most PC oriented FPS.
You might as well say that mouse control "isn't exactly required in any game" because lock on and auto aim exists.
You're being disingenuous and I'm pretty sure you know it.
If you want to pretend that mousewheel speed toggles is anything like as intutive or ergonomic as an analogue stick for fine tuning of movement speed you can do so, but that is still a pretense.
Yes, you can go from binary movement of moving or not moving to 3 or 4 speed control toggles with shift and ctrl for 'walk' and 'run', but that is still a suboptimal control scheme to analogue movement.
A steering wheel is a better controller for driving games than a gamepad is.
An analogue stick is a better controller for games designed around analogue movement than a KB+M is.
EDIT:
No, Quake is in fact hugely influential.
It would be very difficult to say which is more so in fact.
The fun part is that Snake's control in MGS uses the fondation SM64 used for its gameplay.
MGS cutscenes are nothing like FFVII though, not in any way, shape or form.
FFVII uses prerendered background and cutscenes while MGS is in engine most of the time.
If anything MGS is more heavily influenced by Kojima's prior games than anything Squaresoft did.
Unless your point is that it had a big budget and have a heavy emphasis on story telling (story telling that is nothing like FFVII too).
it's as if he never played Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake on MSX which... plays nearly identically to MGS? lmao
Muffdraul
Member
Problem?
To be fair it's not like it's the most easy game to track down either.
Seriously though MGS have nothing in common structurally to FFVII, it's like comparing Doom 64 to SM64.
I mean sure they are on the same platform and have 3D models but that's about it.
You can't go and say "well I don't care what you all think but this is my totally unsupported opinion that I will not defend" .
The problem he has with your statement is the same problem throughout the entire thread. Limiting Mario 64 to just 3D platformers is very dismissive. The effect Mario 64 had on the industry spreads across ANY game that has movement in a 3D environment.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Opinions, but that fact dosn't change that they didn't reach as many people and is clear didn't have the impact that FF 7 had.
Think of a conceptual level: FF7 had a very espectacular presentation, beyond what RE did and other games. Things like seeing the whole mako reactor blow up while you still had control of the character, with graphics never seen before, is not much different as the actual "setpieces" from AAA games.
SodiumBenzoate
Member
In terms of playing them today:
FF7 looks like ass today, just as most PS1 games do. makes it really hard to play, honestly.
SM64 still (mostly) holds up as pretty to look at. If they did a Wii U remake and just upped the poly count of everything I think it would still be a pretty game.
FF7 looks like ass today, just as most PS1 games do. makes it really hard to play, honestly.
SM64 still (mostly) holds up as pretty to look at. If they did a Wii U remake and just upped the poly count of everything I think it would still be a pretty game.
Muffdraul
Member
Well, if Super Mario 64 was a major influence like FFVII was, the industry certainly was quiet about it. Developers were very vocal about FFVII being an influence going forward. I don't remember very many calling out Mario 64 in that way.
Well, I did. Fine, crucify me.
Eh, no. FFVII mainstreamed JRPGs, especially in North America. A lot of people (including myself) don't think FFVII is that great of a Final Fantasy game. Good, not great.
There was nothing that controlled as fluidly as Super Mario 64 at its time. I spent an hour romping in the field the day I got my Nintendo 64. I never had any kind of feeling like that in FFVII (though I got bored with Midgar after two hours of being in there).
Super Mario 64's impact was limited? It's influenced a lot of developers and games.
[Citation needed]
Muffdraul
Member
Fuck you, this ain't Wikipedia.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
That doesnt happen in the version of FF7 I played.
Mine has some numbers in the top corner that count down, and a non-interactive FMV if you either fail or escape.
Maybe dial it back about three notches? His point is that for a convo like this, people need to know where you're getting your outside assertions from.
Wasn't OOT the first major game with a Lock-On aiming mechanic?
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
Although admittedly, it didn't have the huge sales success that FF7 did, Lunar: Eternal Blue came out a couple years beforehand and had impressive animated cutscenes, a CD soundtrack of the highest quality, and voice acting, all on lesser hardware (the Sega CD). FF7 popularized a lot of things, but it wasn't the first game to do them by any stretch.
I don't buy the idea that FF7 won the console wars for Sony either. Resident Evil, Tomb Raider, and Crash Bandicoot all came out before FF7 and were all mega blockbusters. FF7 helped solidify the lead, but the PS1 was already well in the lead.
I don't buy the idea that FF7 won the console wars for Sony either. Resident Evil, Tomb Raider, and Crash Bandicoot all came out before FF7 and were all mega blockbusters. FF7 helped solidify the lead, but the PS1 was already well in the lead.
Mr_Antimatter
Member
It doesn't use modern WASD controls.
By default, it used arrow keys to move, with holding alt to strafe.
No FPS games use that anymore.
bengraven
Member
For the first few years true maneuverable 3D was almost missing from the system. Other than racing games and some of the titles you mentioned. Most of the games focused on a 2D plane.
Much like Sega.
Mario64 forced them into the 3D space.
Dynasty8
Member
This is a tough one...
FFVII changed how I view stories, characters, and music in gaming.
Mario 64 showed me how I can simply get lost in a game to explore every corner and just have fun for hours.
Both are very important, but I'll give the slight edge to FFVII since I love good plots.
FFVII changed how I view stories, characters, and music in gaming.
Mario 64 showed me how I can simply get lost in a game to explore every corner and just have fun for hours.
Both are very important, but I'll give the slight edge to FFVII since I love good plots.
i KNEW you would post in here about Lunar. haha
Metalliccookies
Neo Member
It has to be Super Mario 64, simply because that game shaped the N64 controller and thus gave us the analog stick. Also I would give most if not all 'cinematic' credit to games like Dragon's Lair, Metal Gear Solid or hell, all the FMV games in the 90's (also Mist)...
Also I have a question to everyone saying that the 3D platformer is dead... What do you call games like Disney Infinity and Skylanders? Both are huge franchises and have been very influential to the industry, gaming culture and they are very financially successful. In my eyes they are both 3D platformers, so I would say the 3D platformer is far from dead
Also I have a question to everyone saying that the 3D platformer is dead... What do you call games like Disney Infinity and Skylanders? Both are huge franchises and have been very influential to the industry, gaming culture and they are very financially successful. In my eyes they are both 3D platformers, so I would say the 3D platformer is far from dead
Mr_Antimatter
Member
Jumping flash hit in 1995, as did twisted metal and other 3d games. They were quite aware of 3d space pre-mario 64.
Felix Andrews
Member
Super Mario 64 essentially got third-person movement in 3D space down. I can't believe anyone would answer FFVII on this, frankly.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Not really, with the more fixed camera movement and position, it plays more like the past games.
And I'm not comparing gameplay, I'm comparing the more cinematic presentation, the focus on espectacular or jaw dropping stepieces and cutscenes. With the focus on fully polygonal graphics and real-time cutscenes, is basically an evolution of what FF7 did with the more limited per-rendered backgrounds.
We're talking about a difference of 2mil in sales worldwide at worst.
If you go this way, Gran Turismo is the most influential ps1 game and SM64 the most influential game of the era.
On a contextual level, it's not much.
I can bet you that more people would remember the dog sequence of RE1 than this part of FFVII (if they remember FFVII they'll probably talk about the aerith scene).
Thinking about it, it's a pretty obscure sequence you picked up.
TacticalFox88
Banned
I'm just sitting here laughing at all the absurd arguments being thrown in support of FF7.
Mario 64 was revolutionary in pretty much every sense of the word.
Mario 64 was revolutionary in pretty much every sense of the word.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
We're talking about a difference of 2mil in sales worldwide at worst.
If you go this way, Gran Turismo is the most influential ps1 game and SM64 the most influential game of the era.
On a contextual level, it's not much.
I can bet you that more people would remember the dog sequence of RE1 than this part of FFVII (if they remember FFVII they'll probably talk about the aerith scene).
Thinking about it, it's a pretty obscure sequence you picked up.
I'm pretty sure the difference between policenauts and FF7 is bigger than 2 million.
It's just an example, there are several cutscenes, like these in the game.
Muffdraul
Member
I just went back and read the thread, and it's riddled with people posting nothing more than "Obviously it's ______, no contest." But nobody jumped down their throats, whether they said Super Mario 64 or FFVII. Somehow I attracted hostility. *shrug*
It's quite evident that it plays like former MG games, I'm saying it has more in common with SM64 than MGS structurally.
What setpieces are you thinking for MGS?
The game is in full 3D, considering the limitation of the systems at the time which setpiece in MGS is like what you'd expect from FFVII?
I'd really want picture on that one.
And I'm talking about Resident Evil or MGS here.
And still the RE sequence is probably more iconic than most of them.
Calamari41
41 > 38
Yes, and that mechanic is largely used in the same way today, just refined. I credited this in Mario 64's favor earlier in the thread since OoT is a direct evolution of that game, down to using the same engine.
Still no one came in the thread going all "I warn you that I'm not going to defend my position" as a disclaimer either.
people "jumped" down others throats for the same sort of empty drive-by post crap you started with.
Not to mention: