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[dapperbandit]

I just don't understand why ethnicity is an issue in a fantasy world like Mario's but that's already been said dozens of times int his thread.

The whole argument that swathes of society aren't being represented seems like a slippery slope to me. I mean, what result would make those who agree with that part of the article happy? Even if you get the artists to design characters from a multitude of ethnicities, it's never going to be 100% representative, and it would be unreasonable to demand that artists create so many surplus characters for the singular reason of fending off accusations of being uninclusive.

Being able to create a custom character of course isn't good enough either.

Picture this. A twitter campaign is started demanding more ethnic diversity in the Mario games. It gathers momentum and is eventually a success; in the next Mario game released features ethnically diverse characters. Is that a victory? Those characters would have come into being soley to appease and pacify campaigners.

I know nobody in the thread has actually proposed this and nobody has actually demanded a quota. It's within your right to think the issue is relevant to the game, it's within your rights to be upset about it and to not want to buy it. But it seems to me that if you think this way there is no way to satisfy you that doesn't involve some kind of activism, since Nintendo is unlikely to change on their own in time and people obviously want change sooner rather than later. That's what I don't like about it. I'd rather content creators were free to do as they like and that the creation isn't affected by the application of force from popular campaigns.

 

[Erin S Kittens]

I was talking about those series in which there are kingdoms, harry potter, game of thrones ect...

I'm talking about portrayals of historical ones, which most of these fantasy worlds are based on.

You say you want the artist to make his own choice, but when Miyamoto wants to make a Mario character, he can't pick an Italian without upsetting you.

Quote me being upset about Miyamoto choosing for Mario to be Italian or apologize.

Truthfully, now that I admitted this a lot of negativity that I've had has been wash away. This has allowed me to think about this without the frustration and now I agree. Nintendo could add someone of another races to the Mario games. It wouldn't be hard, and They don't have to be human. Nintendo can be quite imaginative when they want to be. They just need someone people who feel left out can relate to.

Though I do desire this for Zelda. I liked SS Impa a lot. Also a dark skin Link would be interesting story wise.

I appreciate your input on this. Wouldn't that be amazing? They have so many open-ended stories that have always included new characters and re-imaginings of old characters. In some of their IPs, they're already moving in a more diverse direction. I'd like to see them get there with all of them--I loooove the Punch-Out series, but the next game in the series needs to be something other than 'underdog white dude beats ethnic stereotypes bloody and bruised in a light-hearted cartoony atmosphere'.

13 pages (26 or so if you're on 50 posts per page) over one paragraph in an otherwise glowing review of the game.

Dudes are legit shook.

And for all the people saying "Why Mario Kart? Why now?," look, this conversation didn't start with Mario Kart. Mario Kart just ended up being the latest battlefield (that only turned into a battle because the mere mention of diversity causes some people to Hulk out like Bruce Banner when he's off his meds) in an ongoing discussion about diversity in media. It isn't merely about Mario Kart; no one is singling out Nintendo.

But you know, after thinking on it, I don't think we'll ever be able to discuss this. Too many people ready to get offended and defensive over the topic. We're always told "this isn't the right game," "you have to be nicer when you talk about this," "just give the industry time." It's never the right time, never the right game, never the right message.

Maybe I should just join the "I'm black and I don't care" brigade. Cause apparently, caring is never right under any circumstance.

Ain't that the damn truth.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

I'm only insinuating that you have the experience of living in a society that values you more than most people, places fewer barriers before you, and that you've never had the experience of never seeing positive portrayals of people like you. You have the luxury of being able to say that some of your favorite material features people who aren't like you while ignoring the cold fact that most media available to you does. I'm not calling on you to apologize or anything, but it's worth acknowledging that other people might have a different viewpoint than yourself on this issue.
.

But that's not how I feel at all Erin.

Mario is not a positive portrayal of me, my sexuality or my race. Not by a longshot. And that's what I dislike about this line of thinking. I don't want to be put in that category or labelled as such. I'm not on team white, team straight or team anything, you know?

I
However, I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not suggesting enforcing quotas or forcing character inclusion. I simply think we should open up the gaming field to a more diverse body of artists and writers and let them create the characters and stories they want, instead of bowing to focus-tested status quo nonsense. Our industry is not being well served by the profits-above-all mantra it thrives on.

Ok, then I completely misunderstood you. I thought you wanted Mario Kart to represent all minorities and enforce it on content makers! I completely agree with what you are saying!

 

[jmood88]

I just don't understand why ethnicity is an issue in a fantasy world like Mario's but that's already been said dozens of times int his thread.

I want to know what it is that makes it so difficult to make a fantasy world with non-white characters. I also want to know why there are people who get upset when the mere mention of more diversity of games is brought up.

The whole argument that swathes of society aren't being represented seems like a slippery slope to me. I mean, what result would make those who agree with that part of the article happy? Even if you get the artists to design characters from a multitude of ethnicities, it's never going to be 100% representative, and it would be unreasonable to demand that artists create so many surplus characters for the singular reason of fending off accusations of being uninclusive.

I don't want or need a black or japanese person to be the focal point of a game but I would like to see something other than the standard white male protagonist that we see in every single game.

Picture this. A twitter campaign is started demanding more ethnic diversity in the Mario games. It gathers momentum and is eventually a success; in the next Mario game released features ethnically diverse characters. Is that a victory? Those characters would have come into being soley to appease and pacify campaigners.

Unless they are extremely racist caricatures, who cares? Nintendo and other developers haven't shown that they are willing to make non-white characters on their own so if they're shamed into doing it, then oh well.

I know nobody in the thread has actually proposed this and nobody has actually demanded a quota. It's within your right to think the issue is relevant to the game, it's within your rights to be upset about it and to not want to buy it. But it seems to me that if you think this way there is no way to satisfy you that doesn't involve some kind of activism, since Nintendo is unlikely to change on their own in time and people obviously want change sooner rather than later. That's what I don't like about it. I'd rather content creators were free to do as they like and that the creation isn't affected by the application of force from popular campaigns.

And like I said before, I want to know why content creators have such a problem making characters who aren't white, especially when said content creators are in countries where white people aren't the majority.

 

[z0m3le]

I'm talking about portrayals of historical ones, which most of these fantasy worlds are based on.



Quote me being upset about Miyamoto choosing for Mario to be Italian or apologize.

Everything you've said about MK8's roster. If you aren't upset that all of Mario's universes characters were created by Miyamoto and choosen to be "white" italian... then I don't know what you are even debating me for, I agree with the majority of game titles being not diverse by force, but when it comes from how the creator envisioned it, I don't see a problem, especially as in this case, he isn't said race and has given people the option to play as themselves.

I agree with your example of the guy who wanted to create a different character but wasn't allowed to by the publisher, that isn't right.

I also think that it is a bit ridiculous to point the finger at Nintendo as a whole since they did have Metroid's lead character be the first woman heroine in a game. Link probably isn't white, and japan is 98.5% one race.

If there is one company that hasn't followed with the industry that seems to be the target of your "debate" that would be Nintendo.

 

[MoGamesXNA]

#KartEquality

LOL. This got me.

Seriously though... the amount of cynicism in the gaming community at the moment is incredibly off putting. I'm starting to wonder if anyone is spending any time, you know, actually playing games instead of looking for things to be offended by.

Maybe I'm just getting old. Bring back the 90s damnit

 

[Liethe]

Unless they are extremely racist caricatures, who cares? Nintendo and other developers haven't shown that they are willing to make non-white characters on their own so if they're shamed into doing it, then oh well.

I think you're selling people pretty short if you think anybody at all would be served by characters that are completely devoid of charm or personality but simply have different color skin.

Which reminds me of those Mario Golf 64 characters that nobody even remembers the names of.

 

[Raist]

EXCLUSIVE! MK9 roster:

Mario
Baby Mario
Metal Mario
African American Mario
Asian Mario
Hispanic Mario
Hindi Mario
Native American Mario

 

[Two Words]

From Mario Kart 8 alone you have the mushroom people, the koopas, the kongs and whatever Skyguy is considered.

Those are species, not races.

 

[Cbajd5]

EXCLUSIVE! MK9 roster:

Mario
Baby Mario
Metal Mario
African American Mario
Asian Mario
Hispanic Mario
Hindi Mario
Native American Mario

you forgot green mario

 

[Erin S Kittens]

But that's not how I feel at all Erin.

Mario is not a positive portrayal of me, my sexuality or my race. Not by a longshot. And that's what I dislike about this line of thinking. I don't want to be put in that category or labelled as such. I'm not on team white, team straight or team anything, you know?

Personal feelings toward Mario specifically aside, do you disagree with the concept that most media is targeted at white males? I'm not putting a judgment on you--hell, I benefit from white privilege myself, and I'm not even white. But, I think it's important to acknowledge the circumstances of the playing field, regardless of how you identify with it.

Ok, then I completely misunderstood you. I thought you wanted Mario Kart to represent all minorities and enforce it on content makers! I completely agree with what you are saying!

Everything you've said about MK8's roster. If you aren't upset that all of Mario's universes characters were created by Miyamoto and choosen to be "white" italian... then I don't know what you are even debating me for, I agree with the majority of game titles being not diverse by force, but when it comes from how the creator envisioned it, I don't see a problem, especially as in this case, he isn't said race and has given people the option to play as themselves.

I agree with your example of the guy who wanted to create a different character but wasn't allowed to by the publisher, that isn't right.

I also think that it is a bit ridiculous to point the finger at Nintendo as a whole since they did have Metroid's lead character be the first woman heroine in a game. Link probably isn't white, and japan is 98.5% one race.

If there is one company that hasn't followed with the industry that seems to be the target of your "debate" that would be Nintendo.

Think I've been telling you from the beginning that you've been debating with a strawman. I'm simply acknowledging that the Mario Kart 8 cast's humans are not diverse, and that discussion about that is permissible and shouldn't be silenced. I also offered up a solution to the lack of diversity in gaming: to empower a diverse body of artists and writers to join the gaming industry and create whatever kinds of characters they want. So, I'll take that apology

Nintendo are my favorite company, and have been for 21 years. They had two trans* characters (one canonically, one debatable) dating back as early as 1986, they've had people of color as supporting characters in games (not many and not often, but they exist), they at least let people make their Miis in a variety of skin tones, they've responded to the #MiiQuality campaign with a promise to be more inclusive of all the people who play their games (in possible future Tomodachi Collection installments...). I'm still willing to acknowledge that a company can do some good things and not be very diverse, overall, and could stand to improve. This goes for Nintendo and the gaming industry as a whole.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Those are species, not races.

When characters have the same abilities as humans different species are typically seen as different races. Look at any sci-fi movie. Chewbacca is a Wookie. Wookies aren't human, but they're seen as a different race within the Star Wars universe, while also being a different species.

It's why we have the term "Alien race".

 

[jmood88]

I think you're selling people pretty short if you think anybody at all would be served by characters that are completely devoid of charm or personality but simply have different color skin.

Which reminds me of those Mario Golf 64 characters that nobody even remembers the names of.

You're attributing a lot to what I didn't actually say. This goes back to the whole "why do we need a reason to have non-white characters" thing that I've been talking about. Why is it such an issue to put a different-looking human character in there? I really don't understand why people are upset and creating these ridiculous hypothetical situations about quotas and petitions just because people are asking why the human characters in this game are all white.

 

[Two Words]

More importantly, considering Nintendo's portrayals of Italians in the Mario universe, do we really want them taking a crack at other races in that same universe?

 

[ultratruman]

Toads are people too!

 

[three_muffins]

Not only racism.....


...Nintendo promotes drug use. I mean mushroom kingdom. Come on...that got to mean drugs, right? RIGHT?