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[AdmiralViscen]

Snaking breaks all character balance. The foundation of the game rests on the fact that the heavyweights have the high top speed, and the lightweights have the low topseed with the high acceleration. Snaking favors those with high acceleration, instantly making 2/3 of the characters and 4/5 of the karts totally useless for competitive play.

If snaking was a legitimate tactic, the Staff would have used the "technique" for their Ghosts.

 

[The Shadow]

Nobody sensible ever said that. Let it go.

I definitely agree with the sensible part. Definitely.

Still, lots of people said it or at least alluded to it. Sensible people bemoaned online gaming in general even if they didn't say it was fad.

 

[satterfield]

But seriously, play any match full of snakers and everybody starts waving wildly all over the track, it's stupid, what kind of car goes faster along a longer path? I know it's not realistic being that it's cart racing in a cartoon universe, but snaking is dumb dumb dumb. looks dumb, hurts to do it and was obviously not the intention of the developers.

How is it any more stupid than getting ANY turbo boost for sliding at all? You just sound like someone who can't do it effectively and is salty over getting his ass kicked by better players. I don't snake. Why? Because I tried it and it's hard as hell. I give props to the people who can do it, not whine about them. In the meantime I'm practicing, trying to nail it down. You should do the same. It was not the intention of the developers? The developer ghosts snake themselves and you won't beat some of the times unless you do it. And honestly, saying it's hurting your DS is probably the lamest excuse I've ever heard.

 

[Chibbi Brady]

The developer ghosts snake themselves and you won't beat some of the times unless you do it. And honestly, saying it's hurting your DS is probably the lamest excuse I've ever heard.

Buddy I'm afraid you're wrong there, the staff ghosts do not snake. They hug corners, take short cuts, generally they drive pretty damn well and with no snaking in sight. I've beaten most of them and it's great fun, exactly what Mario Kart should be, fun.

 

[The Shadow]

I doubt anyone cares about my POV on the whole subject but I thought I should post to put this in a different context. People here seem to be locked strictly on MKDS as if it's the only online game they've played (and probably so).

This whole excuse that "if it's in the game, it's all fair" is bunk really. That explanation didn't fly when people were bunny hopping or doing the totem-poll sniping in Counter-Strike. People were exploiting gameplay mechanics in ways that they weren't meant to be used. You jump to get over small obstacles, not to dodge bullets. Legal? Not-cheating? Maybe, but it's really dumb and doesn't really take any skill at all.

Granted, snaking probably takes a little more effort than scripting a single keyboard key to continuously be pressed (bunny hop) but it doesn't make it any more different than an exploit of a gameplay mechanic. It is being used in a way that it wasn't meant to be used.

Why did Nintendo leave it in? Good question. It's not because it's *meant* to be in there, that's just silly to assume that. Bugs and exploits are left in unintentionally in games all the time. MKDS is the first or one of the first online games that Nintendo has made. It's much easier to assume that they still have gameplay balance testing issues to workout. Even more likely, exploits like this probably weren't even conceived of during testing. It happens with Xbox Live too even though MS has been doing online gaming longer. Once a bigger pool of gamers gets ahold of a game, they start finding all kinds of ways to do things the developers never intended for them to do. I have absolutely no doubt that's where all this "snaking" came from.

The irony here is that snaking in MKDS hasn't really bothered me at all. I really don't care about it all that much. It's not absolutely vital that I win a race as I simply play to pass the time, not to feel some strange accomplishment that in reality means nothing. The real reason I felt like typing this enormous post is the asinine "elitist" attitude that some of the snakers seem to have. That's it. It has nothing to do with "skill". People aren't complaining because they suck at the game. They're complaining because people are playing the game in a way that was highly likely never intended to be played which can alter the balance for others who don't know how to use the exploit.

Skill? No. It's just knowing *how* to exploit it. Once you know how to snake it's not all that difficult to practice and learn it. It's not that you're better, it's just that you know how to exploit a gameplay element that others may not know about. That's it. Eventually when snaking becomes more common, you'll find you're no more "skilled" than anyone else that can snake.

Just my two cents. I felt I should share since people seem to be looking at this in a pretty limited way IMHO.


Jesus. This is a long post. Congrats to anyone who actually reads it.

 

[elostyle]

Playing to win *click*

 

[AdmiralViscen]

I doubt anyone cares about my POV on the whole subject but I thought I should post to put this in a different context. People here seem to be locked strictly on MKDS as if it's the only online game they've played (and probably so).

This whole excuse that "if it's in the game, it's all fair" is bunk really. That explanation didn't fly when people were bunny hopping or doing the totem-poll sniping in Counter-Strike. People were exploiting gameplay mechanics in ways that they weren't meant to be used. You jump to get over small obstacles, not to dodge bullets. Legal? Not-cheating? Maybe, but it's really dumb and doesn't really take any skill at all.

Granted, snaking probably takes a little more effort than scripting a single keyboard key to continuously be pressed (bunny hop) but it doesn't make it any more different than an exploit of a gameplay mechanic. It is being used in a way that it wasn't meant to be used.

Why did Nintendo leave it in? Good question. It's not because it's *meant* to be in there, that's just silly to assume that. Bugs and exploits are left in unintentionally in games all the time. MKDS is the first or one of the first online games that Nintendo has made. It's much easier to assume that they still have gameplay balance testing issues to workout. Even more likely, exploits like this probably weren't even conceived of during testing. It happens with Xbox Live too even though MS has been doing online gaming longer. Once a bigger pool of gamers gets ahold of a game, they start finding all kinds of ways to do things the developers never intended for them to do. I have absolutely no doubt that's where all this "snaking" came from.

The irony here is that snaking in MKDS hasn't really bothered me at all. I really don't care about it all that much. It's not absolutely vital that I win a race as I simply play to pass the time, not to feel some strange accomplishment that in reality means nothing. The real reason I felt like typing this enormous post is the asinine "elitist" attitude that some of the snakers seem to have. That's it. It has nothing to do with "skill". People aren't complaining because they suck at the game. They're complaining because people are playing the game in a way that was highly likely never intended to be played which can alter the balance for others who don't know how to use the exploit.

Skill? No. It's just knowing *how* to exploit it. Once you know how to snake it's not all that difficult to practice and learn it. It's not that you're better, it's just that you know how to exploit a gameplay element that others may not know about. That's it. Eventually when snaking becomes more common, you'll find you're no more "skilled" than anyone else that can snake.

Just my two cents. I felt I should share since people seem to be looking at this in a pretty limited way IMHO.


Jesus. This is a long post. Congrats to anyone who actually reads it.

I read it. And now I'm quoting it for truth.

 

[Drensch]

Can't agree more. If snakers were so fucking skilled, they wouldn't pick baby fucking park every race.

 

[elostyle]

In Street Fighter Alpha2, there’s a bug in which you can land the most powerful move in the game (a Custom Combo or “CC”) on the opponent, even when he should be able to block it. A bug? Yes. Does it help you win? Yes. This technique became the dominant tactic of the game. The gameplay evolved around this, play went on, new strategies were developed. Those who cried cheap were simply left behind to play their own homemade version of the game with made-up rules. The one we all played had unblockable CCs, and it went on to be a great game.

I'll quote something too then.

 

[elostyle]

Can't agree more. If snakers were so fucking skilled, they wouldn't pick baby fucking park every race.

The track selection is the only real flaw in this whole issue.

 

[The Shadow]

Opps, I just remembered the example I wanted to use when I first started typing up that gigantic post.

"Skiing" in Starseige Tribes. It was a trick in a FPS online game that allowed people to "ski" or slide down the slopes of hills really fast, much faster than running. Lots of people did it and the teams that could do it usually dominated capture the flag than teams that couldn't do it. Eventually you could capture the flag using heavy armor, which was meant to be extremely slow, to capture the flag, something that required a lot of speed. It basically broke the balance of the game.

Turns out it was an exploit. The developers *NEVER* intended for anyone to ski, least the heavy suits. The people who play tested the game before release never did it so they simply didn't know it could be done. After it spread and became so popular though that they left it in the sequel, albeit with some serious tweaks to balance the game out. Wasn't very fair if someone in heavy armor that's supposed to be really slow is "skiing" much faster than someone in light armor that could run and fly much faster than a heavy.

So while you can ski in the sequels, a light will still be faster than a heavy which restores the original gameplay balance.

See where I'm going with this? People were exploiting a gameplay element. It wasn't *skill* that allowed them to win, it was breaking the balance of the game that would have normally made for a more competitive environment.

 

[AdmiralViscen]

I'll quote something too then.

Okay. Tell me how anyone can possibly counter snaking. It's one thing to find a way to break blocks in a fighting game, because your opponent can do things other than block (interrupt your attack, physically dodge, etc. etc.). Snaking forces anyone who wants to compete to pick from 2 or 3 different characters, and use 2 or 3 different karts. Why? Because the entire character lineup is TOTALLY BUSTED by snaking. And if you don't want to snake yoursef, your only hope is to keep getting Blue Shells at a random rate. There's no counter-strategy. And it sounds like your SF exploit gave the same advantage to every character.

 

[The Shadow]

Snaking forces anyone who wants to compete to pick from 2 or 3 different characters, and use 2 or 3 different karts. Why? Because the entire character lineup is TOTALLY BUSTED by snaking. And if you don't want to snake yoursef, your only hope is to keep getting Blue Shells at a random rate. There's no counter-strategy.

It's also only really usable on certain tracks. On others, it's entirely useless. More evidence indicating that it's a gameplay exploit, not some "skill".

Like I said, the actual act of snaking doesn't bother me. If it did, I'd just quit and try to join a different group. The stats and "winning" aren't a motivating factor.

What does bother me is the whole "It's a skill!" argument. That's just stupid. I've seen it used so many times before and then a developer issues a patch or some kind of fix that nullifies the exploit and all of a sudden those "skills" disappear pretty quick.

 

[elostyle]

Okay. Tell me how anyone can possibly counter snaking. It's one thing to find a way to break blocks in a fighting game, because your opponent can do things other than block (interrupt your attack, physically dodge, etc. etc.). Snaking forces anyone who wants to compete to pick from 2 or 3 different characters, and use 2 or 3 different karts. Why? Because the entire character lineup is TOTALLY BUSTED by snaking. And if you don't want to snake yoursef, your only hope is to keep getting Blue Shells at a random rate. There's no counter-strategy.

It's too early to say that. For the longest time zergling rushes were uncounterable in starcraft, then reaver drops, then something else. If the game is really good then there will be a way to deal with it even if it means doing it yourself. Once 2 people that can do it very well go against each other the game will suddenly move to another level where it is about item picking strategies to beat the other (sign of a good game). Snaking is in the game, it is currently the best way to win so it IS the game. The game is what it is and not what you want it to be. If the way it has to be played is not to your liking then don't play it.

That said, I'm sure strategies for the other characters will eventually surface. Again, it's too early to call. The problem I agree on is the track selecting process and then inclusion of baby park to begin with. That wouldn't be an issue during tournament play so you cannot really blame the game's mechanics for it but rather the sloppy WFC setup.

What does bother me is the whole "It's a skill!" argument. That's just stupid. I've seen it used so many times before and then a developer issues a patch or some kind of fix that nullifies the exploit and all of a sudden those "skills" disappear pretty quick.

1. It is harder to do then straight driving and full drifts around corner. CHECK.
2. It improves your chances to win. CHECK.
3. Not everyone can do it. CHECK.
4. Needs a lot of practice and concentration. CHECK.

Sounds like skill to me.

 

[AdmiralViscen]

It's too early to say that. For the longest time zergling rushes were uncounterable in starcraft, then reaver drops, then something else. If the game is really good then there will be a way to deal with it even if it means doing it yourself. Once 2 people that can do it very well go against each other the game will suddenly move to another level where it is about item picking strategies to beat the other (sign of a good game). Snaking is in the game, it is currently the best way to win so it IS the game. The game is what it is and not what you want it to be. If the way it has to be played is not to your liking then don't play it.

That said, I'm sure strategies for the other characters will eventually surface. Again, it's too early to call. The problem I agree on is the track selecting process and then inclusion of baby park to begin with. That wouldn't be an issue during tournament play so you cannot really blame the game's mechanics for it but rather the sloppy WFC setup.

Zerg rushes are a perfect example. Since it's a PC game, Blizzard could fix it. Ling rushes no longer exist, but not because a counter was discovered. It's because the build time and mineral cost of Spawning Pools were increased. Since we're talking about a DS game, Nintendo can't offer a late fix to a broken mechanic.

What item strategy is there in Mario Kart? Snaker vs. snaker is just a test to see who can wiggle their fingers back and forth the fastest. About as complex as the multiplayer in the first Wario Ware. There aren't enough variables in Mario Kart to allow us to counter anything. You're either driving, drifting, or using items. that's it. Some magic solution isn't going to appear down the line, except more snaking.

Snakers go so damn fast that Bowser is never going to be a competitive choice online. I can't pick characters or like, or challenge myself by selecting a random character every time, because then I'm being "left behind" and I can't enjoy an equal and fair experience.


Edit: Using your SC example. You had to effectively gather minerals to get 150mins very quickly. You had to carefully budget Overlord and Drone creation so you could afford your Spawn Pool. You had to build your Spawn Pool. You had to build Zerglings. You had to command these Zerglings. So, I guess it took skill, and was totally fair, right? NO, because anyone who picked anything but Zerg was totally screwed when up against that strategy. Which is why Blizzard FIXED IT. How is Nintendo going to fix this? They can't.

 

[elostyle]

Some strategies get weakened or strengthend with patches in PC strategy games, that's right. Smart developers let them run for a while before doing something about it even when players complain. Often times the problem solves itself when players find a way around it. Obviously there will be stuff that needs fixing but RTS games are many times more complex in mechanics than mario kart.

Using the item system can be a very deep thing to do right. You get better items if you're in second place. You'd want to stay in 2nd for most of the race while keeping up with the first player. You also need to decide if you better keep an item or use it right away and hope for something better. It results in very interesting situations that can be predicted quite good even though the items are random and obviously unbalanced.

 

[olimario]

I took it.
Told them that online sucked.

 

[Tiktaalik]

I can see how people can defend that snaking is a skill, but how can they defend the fact that it's made it so that everyone online pretty much only plays as Yoshi? It really hurts the replayability of the game when there is only a handful of characters that are possibly able to achieve first place.

 

[olimario]

EAD should have had HAL balance the characters.

 

[The Shadow]

1. It is harder to do then straight driving and full drifts around corner. CHECK..

So? It takes skill to pull off the exploit. It's not skill that allows you to win the game.

An exploit can be difficult to learn and even do. It's still an exploit if it breaks the balance or wasn't intented to be there in the first place and there's strong evidence which seems to suggest that it wasn't.

2. It improves your chances to win. CHECK.

Yup. Most exploits and cheats generally do that. Heck, a Pro Action Replay can do that too. UNCHECK.

3. Not everyone can do it. CHECK.

Because it's an undocumented exploit. DUURRRRR. Just because you don't know about an exploit doesn't mean you're not capable of doing it. Flimsy argument duder.

4. Needs a lot of practice and concentration. CHECK.

Highly doubtful and largely subjective. I thought my reply already illustrated why not.

If someone knows about an exploit, they can generally do it. Just because someone doesn't know of an exploit doesn't mean they're any less skilled.

I'm far more impressed with people that can play a game extremely well without exploiting bugs. It takes a lot more skill to hit someone with a regular shell or block a red shell with a banana (since dragging is disabled on WFC) than it does to find out about an exploit and practice how to use it.

I've seen those techniques used against me and I lost because of it but I'm not screaming, "CHEATER!". Hells no. That's just damn good gameplay. Beezy did that when we were playing last night, blocked my red shell with a banana. That's real skill to me.

I can see how people can defend that snaking is a skill, but how can they defend the fact that it's made it so that everyone online pretty much only plays as Yoshi? It really hurts the replayability of the game when there is only a handful of characters that are possibly able to achieve first place.

You know, I even said that snaking wasn't as simple as bunny hopping. Yes, maybe it does take a little more practice to master. We're talking about it in a different context though. It takes skill to learn how to snake, sure. It's not "skill" because you're exploiting a game when someone else may not even know that it exists. That's winning through obscurity, not skill. Just to be clear.

But then again so did skiing in Tribes. It took some practice to learn how to do it just right and hell, I was pretty damn good at it. My friend was even better and could ski really well with a heavy suit.

IT'S STILL AN EXPLOIT and I would hardly say we were "more skilled" than someone who didn't ski. They simply didn't catch on how to do the trick. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[The Shadow]

Heh. I just had my first game with a bunch of snakers. It's funny though because I was so naive about it.

They all picked Luigi Circuit which I thought was weird because in every single game I've played before, everyone usually picks something different with the occasional tie. This time, all the others picked Luigi Circuit.

Off the gate everything was normal up until the turn. I started hitting the speed boosts and got a cube and noticed it was a flying shell. I was like, "huh?" and it turns out I was already in fourth place and the other three were long gone. Doh!

 

[elostyle]

So? It takes skill to pull off the exploit. It's not skill that allows you to win the game.

An exploit can be difficult to learn and even do. It's still an exploit if it breaks the balance or wasn't intented to be there in the first place and there's strong evidence which seems to suggest that it wasn't.



Yup. Most exploits and cheats generally do that. Heck, a Pro Action Replay can do that too. UNCHECK.



Because it's an undocumented exploit. DUURRRRR. Just because you don't know about an exploit doesn't mean you're not capable of doing it. Flimsy argument duder.



Highly doubtful and largely subjective. I thought my reply already illustrated why not.

If someone knows about an exploit, they can generally do it. Just because someone doesn't know of an exploit doesn't mean they're any less skilled.

I'm far more impressed with people that can play a game extremely well without exploiting bugs. It takes a lot more skill to hit someone with a regular shell or block a red shell with a banana (since dragging is disabled on WFC) than it does to find out about an exploit and practice how to use it.

I've seen those techniques used against me and I lost because of it but I'm not screaming, "CHEATER!". Hells no. That's just damn good gameplay. Beezy did that when we were playing last night, blocked my red shell with a banana. That's real skill to me.



You know, I even said that snaking wasn't as simple as bunny hopping. Yes, maybe it does take a little more practice to master. We're talking about it in a different context though. It takes skill to learn how to snake, sure. It's not "skill" because you're exploiting a game when someone else may not even know that it exists. That's winning through obscurity, not skill. Just to be clear.

But then again so did skiing in Tribes. It took some practice to learn how to do it just right and hell, I was pretty damn good at it. My friend was even better and could ski really well with a heavy suit.

IT'S STILL AN EXPLOIT and I would hardly say we were "more skilled" than someone who didn't ski. They simply didn't catch on how to do the trick. Nothing more, nothing less.

Sorry man, you lost me on all points. So it is skill but not skill? Undocumented? I thought the power slide boost was in the manual. Not hard to do? If I overdo it I run into walls and sometimes I fail to get yellow sparks quickly. Sometimes I oversteer and end up hurting myself. Ever thought why mario kart tracks are so wide? This is what the game is ever since the n64 one - powerslide as much as you can. Seriously, please read the article I linked, it is very good.

 

[Vustadumas]

Complaining is lame. Just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should. Have some bushido you fucks!

And your point is, jackass? :lol

 

[Beezy]

Can someone tell me the best character + car combinations for snaking? I want to see how hard it is. In F-Zero GX I wasn't able to do it at all.

 

[elostyle]

Can someone tell me the best character + car combinations for snaking? I want to see how hard it is. In F-Zero GX I wasn't able to do it at all.

It's easiest with dry bones in his tank.

 

[SS4Gogita]

1. It is harder to do then straight driving and full drifts around corner. CHECK.
2. It improves your chances to win. CHECK.
3. Not everyone can do it. CHECK.
4. Needs a lot of practice and concentration. CHECK.

Sounds like skill to me.

Makes the game fun. CHE--- OH WAIT

 

[elostyle]

Makes the game fun. CHE--- OH WAIT

Competing is fun. I would like to request you to read the article I linked as well It represents my thoughts on the topic better than I can word them.

 

[MarkRyan]

Makes the game fun. CHE--- OH WAIT

This man has a point. Simply holding down the gas button in a straight line is MUCH more fun that actively doing something to try and win.

The best argument I've seen in this thread is, "It's not that I can't snake--I'm really good at it--but it hurts my hands and I pretend that it's bad for the DS, so I hate it!"

 

[CoryCubed]

I just don't like it because then I haft to do it to still win. I dislike it like many like the blue shell. I can hang with the best of them doing it but I'd rather just race to race and play the way it was meant to be played.

Its not really a cheat, just a good tactic.

 

[MarkRyan]

I just don't like it because then I haft to do it to still win.

What do you dislike about doing it? Is it a chore to have to do something other than holding down the gas button?

 

[SS4Gogita]

This man has a point. Simply holding down the gas button in a straight line is MUCH more fun that actively doing something to try and win.

There's a difference between snaking and boosting as per how the game teaches you.

 

[MarkRyan]

There's a difference between snaking and boosting as per how the game teaches you.

That doesn't change the fact that the alternative to snaking is just holding down the gas button and driving a straight line.

 

[jamesinclair]

Do you own Mario Kart DS for the Nintendo DS? Just to be clear, Mario Kart DS lets you race and battle with up to 8 people locally using a single Game Card, or up to 4 people wirelessly over the Internet using Wi-Fi. The game features an all-star cast that includes Mario, Luigi, Peach, Yoshi, Donkey Kong, Wario, Bowser, and Toad. You can compete on over 30 courses drawn from every Mario Kart game.


:lol