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[Akia]

I stopped playing Mario Kart DS online when it became polluted with snakers.

Same here.

Which sadly was a month or less after release.

 

[LakeEarth]

But Nintendo purposely puts it into their racers for some reason. Both Mario Kart and F-Zero have a form of snaking. Hell, even the unreleased Mario Kart Wii has snaking even with all the negativity towards it.

 

[viewtiful_dru]

I hated going on with MKDS after I kept encountering players that cheated.

For example---a certain player would disappear from the screen and map until the end of the race when he would magically appear right in front of the finish line.

SO FRUSTRATING.

Haha, that happened to me, but I still won somehow.

Bottom line about winning in MKDS: you learned how to use items, you learned how to snake, and you learned how to take proper racing lines. It is the sad, cold truth.

 

[noonche]

Let's play a game. The only rule is:

- First one to say "I win." wins.

I win.


Now, don't you wish we had some sort of gentleman's agreement that might possibly make the game more fun? Perhaps a limitation that nobody could declare victory until they had 6 shots of vodka or something?

Actually, I would point out that your game sucks and choose to play another.

 

[monkeylite]

I would still be playing Mario Kart DS if it weren't for the cheaters. Now I can't be bothered. Shame as it was the game that pretty much sold me the DS.

 

[Phife Dawg]

Dude, cheaters will be everywhere, regardless of the game. It's worse on the DS because they actually can't do much about it.

This. There will always be cheaters, be it in obvious forms (god mode etc.) or less obvious (wallhack etc.).

Snaking is like camping in an FPS... it's not cheating, but you won't win any respect from doing it.

On the other hand, Action Replay, glitch exploits, save editing, cloning glitches... these are all the reasons why I pretty much only play online with friends. And with Nintendo's no-communication policy, what difference does it really make? Random online opponents might as well be bots anyway.

Hating on camping? What kind of FPS do you play? Deathmatch only or TDM with no weapon spawns (aka makes no sense mode)? TDM and CTF require camping, as well as other tactical game modes like domination etc.

Apart from that snaking requires skill. And who cares about "respect" of random dude from the internet?

I don't like snaking either, because for me it's a chore, but that's up to everyone's personal preference I guess.

But Nintendo purposely puts it into their racers for some reason. Both Mario Kart and F-Zero have a form of snaking. Hell, even the unreleased Mario Kart Wii has snaking even with all the negativity towards it.

That depends on how long you have to slide to get the burst. Snaking in MKDS works because you can get the burst quickly - if it takes a while of sliding to get the burst it wouldn't make you faster in end.

 

[The Faceless Master]

Let's play a game. The only rule is:

- First one to say "I win." wins.

I win.


Now, don't you wish we had some sort of gentleman's agreement that might possibly make the game more fun? Perhaps a limitation that nobody could declare victory until they had 6 shots of vodka or something?

what was the point of this crappy story? that you like playing no throws, no sweeps street fighter because you don't care enough to block and just stand guard all the time, and it would be great if everyone else held themselves back so you have a chance?

 

[Roxas]

I was playing earlier against a guy who was using a character that looked like Johnny 5 (from Short Circuit) wtf?

 

[Deleted member 1235]

well the snaking defense force has one thing right, snaking isn't cheating.

However, it is a game mechanic that is so exploitable it renders the game hopelessly broken and shits all over the balance of the karts and racers.

 

[VALKYRAY]

nintendo is the embarrassment.

 

[lastendconductor]

80% of MKDS online playtime is spent staring at a rotating wheel on a blue background anyway, who cares if people cheat or not. Just play locally.

 

[BooJoh]

Hating on camping? What kind of FPS do you play? Deathmatch only or TDM with no weapon spawns (aka makes no sense mode)? TDM and CTF require camping, as well as other tactical game modes like domination etc.

Apart from that snaking requires skill. And who cares about "respect" of random dude from the internet?

I don't like snaking either, because for me it's a chore, but that's up to everyone's personal preference I guess.

TBH I haven't played a FPS online since Unreal Tournament (the first one) and back before all the tactical FPS's became big, camping was pretty much always frowned upon.

My point was simply that snaking, like camping (back in the day) is a tactic that's available to all players, but frowned upon by many, and by using it you will likely just make people wish they were playing against someone else who DOES respect the other players in a game.

Respect goes hand-in-hand with good sportsmanship, and good sportsmanship should be practiced in competitive gaming.

Frankly, that's half of why I only play with friends. Against random strangers, nobody has any respect for each other, they don't care if the other players are having fun, and they don't care how they win, all they care about is that they do win. I honestly just don't understand the mystical power of the e-peen.

 

[nestea]

I played like 5 online matches in all just because it's a headache trying to find a game without cheaters.

 

[Tain]

My point was simply that snaking, like camping (back in the day) is a tactic that's available to all players, but frowned upon by many, and by using it you will likely just make people wish they were playing against someone else who DOES respect the other players in a game.

Respect goes hand-in-hand with good sportsmanship, and good sportsmanship should be practiced in competitive gaming.

Frankly, that's half of why I only play with friends. Against random strangers, nobody has any respect for each other, they don't care if the other players are having fun, and they don't care how they win, all they care about is that they do win. I honestly just don't understand the mystical power of the e-peen.

I respect people who play by the rules defined by the game way, way more than people who make up their own and assume everybody else should do the same. Are you honestly blaming people for playing a game using options available to anyone and everyone?

On top of that, it blows me away how widespread the "if they're trying to win they must not be having fun" mindset is, especially amongst people who intentionally handicap themselves. Who are you to say that the people limiting themselves are having more fun than those using the most effective options? GAF's pretty vocal about how bad snaking is (be it the mechanic or the players that use it), but I know more than a few people that feel the game would be boring without it. I'd say the same about camping, even though I've never found it to be very useful in most FPSes.

I don't know. I'd guess I'd just like to think that most people grow out of the "that's cheap" phase.

And yeah, this whole post sounds like a certain David Sirlin article, but he's spot on.

 

[BooJoh]

I respect people who play by the rules defined by the game way, way more than people who make up their own and assume everybody else should do the same. Are you honestly blaming people for playing a game using options available to anyone and everyone?

On top of that, it blows me away how widespread the "if they're trying to win they must not be having fun" mindset is, especially amongst people who intentionally handicap themselves. Who are you to say that the people limiting themselves are having more fun than those using the most effective options? GAF's pretty vocal about how bad snaking is (be it the mechanic or the players that use it), but I know more than a few people that feel the game would be boring without it. I'd say the same about camping, even though I've never found it to be very useful in most FPSes.

I don't know. I'd guess I'd just like to think that most people grow out of the "that's cheap" phase.

And yeah, this whole post sounds like a certain David Sirlin article, but he's spot on.

Anyone who honestly thinks that the developers intended for players to zigzag their way through the game rubbing their thumbs raw is only fooling themself.

I dislike snaking because I've always loved the Mario Kart series, and I've gotten owned by great powersliders in the past, and I looked up to those people, but it wasn't until MK: DS when I honestly felt like people were just exploiting a game-breaking bug, and there's not a shred of fun to be had in rubbing blisters into my thumb just because the tactic is "available to all players."

I'm not one to casually set my own arbitrary rules in games, but sometimes it's just too obvious that something is unintended. If instead of snaking, there was some exploit in MK: DS that allowed players to literally insta-win, nobody would be defending it as fair. So why defend this exploit?

Bottom line: If snaking is an intentional game design choice, it's a terrible one and I'll be officially through with the series when CPU racers start snaking too.

 

[Dreavus]

My beef with snaking is it renders almost all the karts in the game completely useless, with only a handful of them being actually viable. If they're going to introduce this as a mechanic, they should have balanced it around ALL the karts, not just a few (dry bomber, egg1... and maybe the vacuum - that's about it isn't it?). Sure you can eventually put any character in any kart, but the game ends up losing quite a bit of diversity with everyone driving Yoshi's kart.

As for WiFi cheating... it was also pretty prevalent in Metroid Prime: Hunters. I love how the game plays, but I seem to get a cheater in every second match I play. =/

 

[Tain]

I thought the evidence out there toward snaking being intentional was pretty strong, but would it really make a huge difference if it was a case of the developers not having the foresight to see it? In the end, it's still part of the game's set of rules, and it's as valid as, well, steering, breaking, and jumping.

My issue here isn't with the people saying that snaking is a bad design choice (I'm not exactly playing MKDS these days), but rather the blaming of the people who use it. It makes no sense at all to blame people for trying to win, and assuming that they aren't enjoying themselves (and that they shouldn't be respected) is absurd.

 

[Haunted]

Fucking cheaters.


And concerning snaking: there's a reason they removed/nerfed it in the Wii game.

 

[BooJoh]

I thought the evidence out there toward snaking being intentional was pretty strong, but would it really make a huge difference if it was a case of the developers not having the foresight to see it? In the end, it's still part of the game's set of rules, and it's as valid as, well, steering, breaking, and jumping.

Steering, breaking, and jumping are staples of the series that have always been present. Snaking is not. I'd like to see some of this evidence toward snaking being intentional. Just off the top of my head, here's some of the evidence that it's not:

*CPU players don't do it in any mode
*It's completely undocumented
*Developer Ghosts don't do it (correct me if I'm wrong)
*It uses a well-documented feature (powersliding) in an unconventional way that drastically alters the gameplay experience
*It's physically unpleasant to do
*It's a completely unbalanced tactic in relation to the different karts in the game

I frown upon snaking because it takes a game I enjoy playing, and turns it into a completely different experience, which I don't enjoy at all, and I firmly believe it's unintended.

Nobody's perfect, and that includes game developers. Bugs get into games, and exploitable mechanics slip by. It's up to the players to keep up the good sportsmanship and not utilize cheap tactics, and I feel like the gaming public has largely failed in this regard.

 

[Capndrake]

I was playing earlier against a guy who was using a character that looked like Johnny 5 (from Short Circuit) wtf?

Joke post? Or haven't you unlocked the 4 extra characters?

 

[Phife Dawg]

TBH I haven't played a FPS online since Unreal Tournament (the first one) and back before all the tactical FPS's became big, camping was pretty much always frowned upon.

My point was simply that snaking, like camping (back in the day) is a tactic that's available to all players, but frowned upon by many, and by using it you will likely just make people wish they were playing against someone else who DOES respect the other players in a game.

Respect goes hand-in-hand with good sportsmanship, and good sportsmanship should be practiced in competitive gaming.

Frankly, that's half of why I only play with friends. Against random strangers, nobody has any respect for each other, they don't care if the other players are having fun, and they don't care how they win, all they care about is that they do win. I honestly just don't understand the mystical power of the e-peen.

Not true at all. Camping the weapon spawns and the Quad Damage in Quake was the only way to dominate the other team. If you just run around aimlessly it wouldn't make any sense whatsoever to play in a team. Now if you play FFA, camping is indeed lame but who plays FFA anyways?

And that has nothig to do with the respect, that you should show your opponent. Respect is not about not dominating the other player - if you can't live with others being better at the game you shouldn't play competitively. We got owned in Q3 pretty badly (playing Eurocup) and likewise we have owned other teams badly, we never ran our mouths about it (respect). But of course next time we'd play the same team we would give them the same beating and I wouldn#t expect otherwise from them if they owned us before. If you are not having fun getting owned better work on your game or quit playing competitively - it's all about the challenge if you do so.

 

[BooJoh]

Now if you play FFA, camping is indeed lame...

I only played FFA. So now that you agree that camping is lame, in FFA, wouldn't you rather play against someone who's going to be a good sport and not camp?

It's a matter of perspective. You guys who say snaking is fair feel the rules of the game have changed. I say the rules haven't changed, the referee (the code enforcing the rules) is just not doing his job. If you're playing a sport IRL and the ref looks the other way, it doesn't make it okay to break the rules just because he's not enforcing them.

 

[AirRulez]

My issue here isn't with the people saying that snaking is a bad design choice (I'm not exactly playing MKDS these days), but rather the blaming of the people who use it. It makes no sense at all to blame people for trying to win, and assuming that they aren't enjoying themselves (and that they shouldn't be respected) is absurd.

Actually it makes sense: not to blame them for trying to win, but to blame them to do so in a manner that the community consider "unfair". The whole argument "it's in the game, so it's legit to use it" is wrong to the bone: since the online gaming rose up, we always had custom players rules to take care of design flaws. Some games get patches to correct them, some others don't and using them means follow a non sportsmanship way to win. You think is funny winning this way? Fine, I think you should be blamed for it.

 

[Danielsan]

I stopped playing Mario Kart DS online when it became polluted with snakers.

.

Sure I can snake too, I know how but it just isn't fun and it's not the way I intended to play Mario Kart. Thank god there is (supossedly) no snaking in Mario Kart Wii.

 

[Metal Gear?!]

TBH I haven't played a FPS online since Unreal Tournament (the first one) and back before all the tactical FPS's became big, camping was pretty much always frowned upon.

My point was simply that snaking, like camping (back in the day) is a tactic that's available to all players, but frowned upon by many, and by using it you will likely just make people wish they were playing against someone else who DOES respect the other players in a game.

I think a distinction needs to be made. Camping is a tactic, snaking is an exploit. It's not just camping, it's getting outside the map or inside geometry where other players cannot see you and then camping.

 

[BooJoh]

I think a distinction needs to be made. Camping is a tactic, snaking is an exploit. It's not just camping, it's getting outside the map or inside geometry where other players cannot see you and then camping.

Good point, and I agree completely.

 

[Urban Scholar]

Most people know that a number of gamers on Nintendo's WFC shamelessly cheat their way to unrealistic records like 10,000 wins and 2 losses.

But only recently have I went online with the DS and played against people. At times, the matches can be incredibly fun and tight. Others? You want to just throw the DS against a wall.

I don't hate Datel for making Pro Action Replay. I hate Nintendo for not investing in creating a system to disable the devices.

It's unacceptable for a billion dollar company to allow this kind of behavior. It's an embarrassment for Nintendo to continue to take baby steps when it comes to online play. It was kind of cute when they were doubting the future of online gaming... Now it's aggravating.

"Talk" to you guys on Smash Brothers.

Well, consider me informed now. I was wondering why the heck some records were crazy and matches were severely one sided. Hope the next big DS wifi game remains safe.

 

[Phife Dawg]

I only played FFA. So now that you agree that camping is lame, in FFA, wouldn't you rather play against someone who's going to be a good sport and not camp?

It's a matter of perspective. You guys who say snaking is fair feel the rules of the game have changed. I say the rules haven't changed, the referee (the code enforcing the rules) is just not doing his job. If you're playing a sport IRL and the ref looks the other way, it doesn't make it okay to break the rules just because he's not enforcing them.

I wouldn't play FFA competitively anyways. To be honest I wouldn't play FFA period. Camping in FFA is lame because FFA is not about competing but to have as much action as possible - if everyone camps that won't happen.

It's not comparable to MKDS' snaking.

And how is it breaking the rules? Snaking is not cheating, I thought we all agreed on that one? If not, we should.

It's been quite a while but iirc the staff ghost do snake on certain courses, which would make it clear that it's also not an exploit.

 

[Takeda Kenshi]

Considering that Nintendo hasn't been able to stop the rampant piracy of both its console and handheld gaming divisions, what would give anyone the impression that they would desire (much less have the ability) to stop the cheating over WiFi?

Comon people.

 

[TheExodu5]

I dislike Snaking too, but don't turn this into a snaking debate. The fact is... it's in the game whether or not it was an oversight on Nintendo's part. It's there and gamers can do it... I'd love to see it removed from gameplay in Mario Kart Wii. That'll balance the game a lot better, but it's unlikely.

Snaking has been confirmed to be gone in MK Wii.

 

[Phife Dawg]

Snaking has been confirmed to be gone in MK Wii.

Neither has it been confirmed that snaking is still in, nor that they got rid of it. The boosts are still in, but instead of rapidly tapping left and right the boost charges automatically when you slide/drift-the more you slide, the bigger the boost will get.

Wether or not snaking will still be viable depends on how long you have to "charge" the slide to get an effective boost that'll give you an advantage over just driving straight.

 

[KittenMaster]

Neither has it been confirmed that snaking is still in, nor that they got rid of it. The boosts are still in, but instead of rapidly tapping left and right the boost charges automatically when you slide/drift-the more you slide, the bigger the boost will get.

Wether or not snaking will still be viable depends on how long you have to "charge" the slide to get an effective boost that'll give you an advantage over just driving straight.

Even if snaking is still in, it sounds easier to do this time around.

 

[maniac-kun]

the only thing they need to add to mk in the online mode is a settings system for the host where the host can decide like:
snaking: no
blueshell: no
and then the other players vote if they like it this way and the game would be perfect

 

[Phife Dawg]

Even if snaking is still in, it sounds easier to do this time around.

What I didn't like about snaking was not that it was hard to do but that it always felt like a chore to me. This may be better since you don't have to rapidly tap the d-pad but I'll reserve judgement.

 

[Anasui Kishibe]

Dude, cheaters will be everywhere, regardless of the game. It's worse on the DS because they actually can't do much about it.

yeah, but it does make a big arse difference when you have punkbuster on one hand and nothing on the other

 

[Petrie]

the only thing they need to add to mk in the online mode is a settings system for the host where the host can decide like:
snaking: no
blueshell: no
and then the other players vote if they like it this way and the game would be perfect

So how do you make it in the game so a user can't "snake", but can still powerslide? It would seem disabling one would take away the other.

 

[Woo-Fu]

How is snaking cheating again? I really don't understand the hate on snaking. Its in the game its legal.

So is putting teleporters that take you the wrong direction in TF2 but you won't make any friends that way.

Curiously enough, there are people who actually want to race against each other instead of snake against each other.

 

[darscot]

So how do you make it in the game so a user can't "snake", but can still powerslide? It would seem disabling one would take away the other.

A simple time out between them would solve this.

 

[Firestorm]

well the snaking defense force has one thing right, snaking isn't cheating.

However, it is a game mechanic that is so exploitable it renders the game hopelessly broken and shits all over the balance of the karts and racers.

My beef with snaking is it renders almost all the karts in the game completely useless, with only a handful of them being actually viable. If they're going to introduce this as a mechanic, they should have balanced it around ALL the karts, not just a few (dry bomber, egg1... and maybe the vacuum - that's about it isn't it?). Sure you can eventually put any character in any kart, but the game ends up losing quite a bit of diversity with everyone driving Yoshi's kart.

As for WiFi cheating... it was also pretty prevalent in Metroid Prime: Hunters. I love how the game plays, but I seem to get a cheater in every second match I play. =/

Guys, the game was always unbalanced. It has been since at least Mario Kart 64. Lightweight karts = awesome. Heavyweight karts = bad.

Fucking cheaters.


And concerning snaking: there's a reason they removed/nerfed it in the Wii game.

The reason is people wouldn't stop crying about it.

Steering, breaking, and jumping are staples of the series that have always been present. Snaking is not. I'd like to see some of this evidence toward snaking being intentional. Just off the top of my head, here's some of the evidence that it's not:

*CPU players don't do it in any mode
*It's completely undocumented
*Developer Ghosts don't do it (correct me if I'm wrong)
*It uses a well-documented feature (powersliding) in an unconventional way that drastically alters the gameplay experience
*It's physically unpleasant to do
*It's a completely unbalanced tactic in relation to the different karts in the game

I frown upon snaking because it takes a game I enjoy playing, and turns it into a completely different experience, which I don't enjoy at all, and I firmly believe it's unintended.

Nobody's perfect, and that includes game developers. Bugs get into games, and exploitable mechanics slip by. It's up to the players to keep up the good sportsmanship and not utilize cheap tactics, and I feel like the gaming public has largely failed in this regard.

It has been in the game since Mario Kart 64.
CPU players don't need to, they rubberband.
Being completely undocumented doesn't make anything unintentional.
Developer Ghost on Baby Park in the GameCube version does it.
Ok?
No.
Karts have always been unbalanced.

I agree it might have been unintentional at the beginning, but they never bothered to get rid of it. It's not a fucking bug. And being unintentional doesn't make it "wrong" or "cheating" or "cheap". Stop playing a game that doesn't exist and play Mario Kart.

 

[The Mighty Schwein]

No no no. Picross DS is filled with cheaters online! :angry:

 

[Firestorm]

No no no. Picross DS is filled with cheaters online! :angry:

wtf seriously?
God, they need to make Nintendogs online and see if anyone can cheat there. "his dog is eating mine! ;_;"

 

[Proven]

Dammit Firestorm, you did all of the responses for me.

Also, I thought there was more than one ghost that did snake in Double Dash, but I guess I was wrong. I also do believe there are a couple of developer ghosts that do so in Mario Kart DS, one being the Baby Park ghost (once again).

But yes, snaking has been possible since MK64. You can look up the current time trial record holders and see for yourself.

 

[prodystopian]

I guess I won't be picking this up when I get a DS.

 

[ElFly]

I don't play Mario Kart with Snaking, because it is a game that sucks. It's boring. Sorry.

Exploit the bug, if you want, but don't ask me to play with you, cheater.

 

[SantaC]

Snaking isn't cheating because it's built into the game and everyone can do it.

Cheating is when you use something external to manipulate the rules.

 

[yoursisterspretty]

No no no. Picross DS is filled with cheaters online! :angry:

Really? Never came across a cheater yet. Usually I'm playing against someone in Japan, so that might be why (I imported it when it came out, but I thought WiFi games were worldwide, is Picross different?)?

 

[Toy Soldier]

I guess I won't be picking this up when I get a DS.

It's still a fun game, it's still worth having/playing...just not online, unless you play with friends who play by the general no-snaking rule many MK gamers have adopted. Otherwise, you have to play their game to compete, and to me, that just ain't fun. No thanks.

I don't play Mario Kart with Snaking, because it is a game that sucks. It's boring. Sorry.

Exploit the bug, if you want, but don't ask me to play with you, cheater.

Truth.

 

[Akinola]

if you guys have never played CTR (which i suggest you should, one of the best kart racers ever) all the fastest times (platinum relics done by the devs) are done by snaking through the entire track.

So if Naughty Dog thought it was legitimate, surely it must be so. If the tactic wasn't supposed to be used, there would be no way to use it. Which is why it's in 64, DD, DS, and I won't be surprised if it makes another return.

In any case, those who complain are the ones that can't do it well, or can't do it to the point where they can keep with those who can.

But it's not just MK: DS that has cheating--it's all over fricking DS wifi. It was so hard to get to a 3-star ranking in Metroid Prime Hunters the blue and true way--it's because everyone who was top ranked would glitch into walls and get an unfair advantage. I haven't touched online in a very long while.

But I'm excited that MK:Wii will be a good change.

 

[noonche]

What I didn't like about snaking was not that it was hard to do but that it always felt like a chore to me. This may be better since you don't have to rapidly tap the d-pad but I'll reserve judgement.

I dunno man, how are you snaking? I could snake like mad back when I played the game and it was hardly a rapid motion. You only need 4 well-timed, presses to for each boost. It's very rhythmic if done right, and it doesn't hurt your hand anymore than the game using the freaking A button for gas does.

I've never understood this "gentleman's agreement" mentality. If I've found a game to be unbalanced to the point of not being fun (see: Capcom Fighting Jam) I stop playing it. If you don't like snaking, then don't play MKDS. Should we not use meaty hits in Third Strike since they appear to be unintentional? What about rocket jumping? If an "exploit" (I'd rather it be called emergent gameplay) is in the game, and if they don't get removed (through new version in MK or patches in others) and you don't like them, stop playing.

 

[Phife Dawg]

I dunno man, how are you snaking? I could snake like mad back when I played the game and it was hardly a rapid motion. You only need 4 well-timed, presses to for each boost. It's very rhythmic if done right, and it doesn't hurt your hand anymore than the game using the freaking A button for gas does.

I've never understood this "gentleman's agreement" mentality. If I've found a game to be unbalanced to the point of not being fun (see: Capcom Fighting Jam) I stop playing it. If you don't like snaking, then don't play MKDS. Should we not use meaty hits in Third Strike since they appear to be unintentional? What about rocket jumping? If an "exploit" (I'd rather it be called emergent gameplay) is in the game, and if they don't get removed (through new version in MK or patches in others) and you don't like them, stop playing.

It wasn't hard on my hand I just don't have fun doing it, hence the feeling of it being a chore. I have nothing against people snaking, for me it isn't fun and that's why I stopped playing it online. But I guess that second paragraph wasn't adressed at me.