James Woods
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Ennis/Aaron Punisher4lyfe
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Marvel's Daredevil debuting on Netflix on April 10
- Thread starter NotTheGuyYouKill
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shiftplusone
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Jest Chillin
Member
Ok. Now how does that translate to the MCU? They're not going to give Punisher movies.. which puts him at Netflix with the rest of the Street Level characters. However at that level, he's only tangentially connected to the Supers with straight forward morals and he's likely to have zero connection to AoS, since that's on ABC.
So with all of that limiting his ability to contrast.. the most unique aspects of him (willingness to kill as a hero where most have black and white morals, surviving and thriving in a world of Supers) are neutered at best. It would make him come across as yet another Rogue Cop/Cop with a Dark Side.
That's not to say they can't find a way to make him interesting.. but until I hear a pitch that does that, I can't be excited for the prospect of him being used.
Richard Corben IIRC is a pretty acquired taste, for sure. I think it worked well for me at the time in the story, but I remember preferring The Tyger in particular, as well as The Cell.
I'm sure as a Punisher and DD fan you're eager for a theoretical season depicting The Devil in Cell Block D Brubaker storyline, though, right?
BTW back when I was a comic superfan I had the opportunity to meet Ennis and Brubaker (and many others), both of them were very nice.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Yeah, Devil in Cell Block D would be awesome
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Another thing about Castle that nobody mentions is that he's every bit the soldier Capt. America is, but he represents the mindset of a Vietnam-era America, versus the glorified, nearly mythological World War II era. He's the dark side of America's obsession with conflict. He's never not known war because he is, for all intents and purposes, war itself. Capt. America gets to punch aliens in the face and go on grand adventures with the Avengers. Frank Castle can't do that, not because the real supers wouldn't let him eventually, but he can't allow himself to do it. He spends his time saving sex slaves from Slovenia and keeping actual gangsters (not Hammerhead) from murdering entire families. And if he can't stop bad things from happening, he damn well makes sure they're avenged.
Castle is the ultimate tragic figure. Not a hero, not a villain, loved by nobody, needed by everybody and hated by an entire universe, but none of that hate comes close to the hatred he holds for himself and what he's become.
Castle is the ultimate tragic figure. Not a hero, not a villain, loved by nobody, needed by everybody and hated by an entire universe, but none of that hate comes close to the hatred he holds for himself and what he's become.
Go read anything by Garth Ennis.
Go read The Slavers. PERIOD.
Jest Chillin
Member
I point to my previous post: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=146546093&postcount=254
I'm aware of how he fits within the comic universe but we're not talking about the comic universe. We're talking about his entering the MCU and coming with the baggage that that entails in terms of marketing, merchandising, and the limited viability of cross overs with the big films.
I'm aware of how he fits within the comic universe but we're not talking about the comic universe. We're talking about his entering the MCU and coming with the baggage that that entails in terms of marketing, merchandising, and the limited viability of cross overs with the big films.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
He should at least be introduced as an antagonist/anti-hero foil to Matt.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Well, it's not as if people aren't familiar with the cast of the Avengers at this point. Having that contrasting element would be great to reach those people who maybe aren't as excited about a guy in blue spandex smacking around aliens from another dimension. There are great swaths of stories you can tell with a more grounded character that wouldn't work with characters that are worshiped in the MCU.
jackissocool
Member
Punisher merchandise is easy and already common - his shirt. As for crossover with the movies, they've made it pretty clear that's not the point of the Netflix shows. They're a separate slice of the same universe.
If anything he fits in better in the films, given the hypocrisy of The Avengers judging Punisher when they kill by the dozens.
I can't recommend the entire PunisherMAX run by Ennis enough. Some incredible stories there. Very dark and disturbing, in contrast to his Marvel Knights material (which is now tough to find in print, all trades have been OOP for ages).
It's impressive how Ennis can write Punisher as an over-the-top action comedy in Marvel Knights, but then completely nails the gritty shift in tone for MAX.
Aaron's MAX sequel is high on my to-read list, apparently he does a great job following in Ennis' footsteps.
It's impressive how Ennis can write Punisher as an over-the-top action comedy in Marvel Knights, but then completely nails the gritty shift in tone for MAX.
Aaron's MAX sequel is high on my to-read list, apparently he does a great job following in Ennis' footsteps.
GuitarAtomik
Member
I'll maintain my pretty obvious theory that we'll see Punisher on one (or a few) of these shows as a semi-antagonist/eventual ally who will later get his own Netflix show. It just makes too much sense.
Delta Assault
Member
It's very very hard to go back to seeing The Punisher in the normal Marvel Universe after reading Ennis's Punisher MAX. THAT's what putting your stamp on a character looks like.
Now to be on-topic... I'm not sure how to feel about this TV show. I have a bad feeling that the show might do something like Miller's Born Again, but botch it. That would suck a whole lot, since then it'd probably ruin the chances to tell that classic story in a movie down the line.
Hitman's good too, read it
Now to be on-topic... I'm not sure how to feel about this TV show. I have a bad feeling that the show might do something like Miller's Born Again, but botch it. That would suck a whole lot, since then it'd probably ruin the chances to tell that classic story in a movie down the line.
Jest Chillin
Member
I'm not against that but I'm not sure how he fits given what we've been told about the intended depiction of Kingpin in the show. There are ways to do it but I feel like it would have to almost be an an entire arc itself.
Sure. But how do you visualize that contrast within a show without Supers?
MCU merchandise aims at a much wider and more mainstream audience. They would want unique merch associated with an MCU version of the character. Just as they do with animated versions of characters.
He doesn't fit though. He would only fit in a toned down interpretation. His darker interpretations would clash with the MCU film feel. At least as it is at this point in time.
That's not the most unique thing about him. Its not his willingness to kill or surviving the supers that separate Frank Castle. What Punisher is about is the deep dark path a man takes to go to actual WAR on crime. Its completely different from a rogue cop/cop with a darkside in that Punisher is not about the law. He is not about Justice. He is about punishment. He exists so far outside the law that he is wanted by EVERYONE. Cops. Criminal. The Heroes. See, what superheroes do is to save the day. What the Punisher does is to make sure that the world will one day never need heros by eliminating the cause of it: crime. He doesn't save lives. That's secondary. He knows he is not a hero. He is a monster. The path he takes is not about redemption or justice. The path he takes leads to damnation and he accepts it. He carries that burden. To do what he does, he has stripped himself of his very humanity. That quote that says do not combat evil with evil least you become a monster? The Punisher is that monster. And that is what makes him so fascinating, especially Garth Ennis's stuff. To see how far Frank castle has fallen in his war on crime. And how much father he has to fall.
As to how he fits in the MCU, he can be the super hero's reflection. Their dark shadow. Their abyss. While the super heroes are in the sky, punisher is the dirt. The lowest. And if handled right, his story can be a masterful commentary on heorics, on what it means to be a hero and what it is like to be a monster.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Why would you have to do that? No other MCU property is an island unto itself. They're not going to throwout the entire framework of the MCU to set up a show to fail. That doesn't even make sense.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
And Luke Cage and Jessica are supers too. But it's great that we're finally getting some street level guys. No gods, no secret agents, just some regular dudes with unbreakable skin and sonar.
Indeed. I think it's easier to relate to a character like Daredevil, with two shitty thankless jobs just trying to make ends meet than Tony Stark, who's biggest problem is he's an idiot who creates killer robots.
Marc
Member
Oh man, I am looking forward to this so much.
I am a fan of Daredevil 'in theory' but have never quite clicked with him, Spidey is my bro and they are a bit too similar at times for them to share that love.
This, this is the show that will do it. I know it. As soon as I heard DeKnight was running the show and writing it, I was in all the way. That guy does not get the credit he deserves for Spartacus. The shows writing easily reaches The Wire and Breaking Bad levels, but the cartoon violence and sex seem to work against him in recognition. If he brings half as much of his writing game to this show as he did Spartacus then it will be a masterpiece.
The cast looks brilliant as well, I really want to see a trailer though and PLEASE let there be a good red suit before seasons end.
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As for Punisher, he has the potential to have such a good TV show. A combination of Dead Man's Shoes PTSD, Person of Interests Reese gunplay and intensity, Spartacus' righteous indignation against the injustice of his world, Jason Bornes hand to hand skills, Law Abiding Citizen's craziness, Tombstones Wyatt Earp determination to kill criminals and Death Sentence's inability to accept the death of his family. I like to think of The Punisher as a modern day Ares or Achilles taking on crime, a human avatar for the gods of war. Which with stories like Born is not too far from the mark. I'd have Born as half of the first episode showing as flashbacks before Franks family is murdered. Set it in a jungle in South America, taking on drug lords with his squad killed and going full MDK mode. With the drug lords reps in America killing his family in response.
Revenge films are awesome, there aren't a lot of TV shows like that and you could do so much with it. The Punisher has some great stories to tell and for me he is what a real life superhero would look like. Fucking crazy, a broken man who has lost everything and nothing further to lose, trained to kill like no other and someone who is fed up of the worlds inaction against murderers/gangsters/corruption. Plus someone armed to the teeth. He doesn't quite fit in Marvels world but for me is one of the best takes on the superhero concept. It is like the recent terrorist shootings, if a family member of the lost was some special ops guy and decides to wage a personal war on terrorists hunting them all down... yeah the guy has clearly snapped but I can sure understand that.
I am a fan of Daredevil 'in theory' but have never quite clicked with him, Spidey is my bro and they are a bit too similar at times for them to share that love.
This, this is the show that will do it. I know it. As soon as I heard DeKnight was running the show and writing it, I was in all the way. That guy does not get the credit he deserves for Spartacus. The shows writing easily reaches The Wire and Breaking Bad levels, but the cartoon violence and sex seem to work against him in recognition. If he brings half as much of his writing game to this show as he did Spartacus then it will be a masterpiece.
The cast looks brilliant as well, I really want to see a trailer though and PLEASE let there be a good red suit before seasons end.
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As for Punisher, he has the potential to have such a good TV show. A combination of Dead Man's Shoes PTSD, Person of Interests Reese gunplay and intensity, Spartacus' righteous indignation against the injustice of his world, Jason Bornes hand to hand skills, Law Abiding Citizen's craziness, Tombstones Wyatt Earp determination to kill criminals and Death Sentence's inability to accept the death of his family. I like to think of The Punisher as a modern day Ares or Achilles taking on crime, a human avatar for the gods of war. Which with stories like Born is not too far from the mark. I'd have Born as half of the first episode showing as flashbacks before Franks family is murdered. Set it in a jungle in South America, taking on drug lords with his squad killed and going full MDK mode. With the drug lords reps in America killing his family in response.
Revenge films are awesome, there aren't a lot of TV shows like that and you could do so much with it. The Punisher has some great stories to tell and for me he is what a real life superhero would look like. Fucking crazy, a broken man who has lost everything and nothing further to lose, trained to kill like no other and someone who is fed up of the worlds inaction against murderers/gangsters/corruption. Plus someone armed to the teeth. He doesn't quite fit in Marvels world but for me is one of the best takes on the superhero concept. It is like the recent terrorist shootings, if a family member of the lost was some special ops guy and decides to wage a personal war on terrorists hunting them all down... yeah the guy has clearly snapped but I can sure understand that.
jackissocool
Member
And so is Iron Fist. Shit's magic. I sure hope they don't reduce him to just a super good martial artist instead of a guy with actually magical punches.
He should be the healer of the group.
-tetsuo-
Unlimited Capacity
Jest Chillin
Member
I was paraphrasing his archetype. Everything that you've just described has been done, in varying degrees, in movies and tv shows. Before the actual writing and stories can grab someone, he needs a hook to draw viewers in. I'm not seeing how you hook a viewer.
He won't be juxtaposed with the big heroes though since they're not likely to cross them over. Judging by the what we've heard of DD so far, Punisher would not be the opposite side of the same coin as much as he's just on the other side of a line that DD toes. And there's no way that Marvel makes a show that goes dark enough to truly illustrate the depths that Frank has fallen.
If you don't show his contrast, he becomes generic. That's a problem that I feel plagues the movies. His family is killed and he's out for vengeance. The depths he goes to just come across as ultra violence without the contextual universe being shown to you. If you give him a show and he's connected to the street level heroes they've announced so far.. the contrast isn't as wide as it is in the books. So I don't see his being as interesting in the TV side of the MCU and I really don't think they'd use him in the movies at the extreme he should be to illustrate the contrast. So a really dark Punisher doesn't fit and a Punisher Light isn't as interesting. Does that clarify where I'm coming from a bit better?
BobbyRobby
Member
Are any of the classic Power Man, Iron Fist, or Heroes for Hire stories good? I like Cage already from New Avengers, but I'd like to get acquainted with some older stuff.
But yeah, Daredevil is well beyond that even.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=AiBeLoB6CKE
But yeah, Daredevil is well beyond that even.
you really don't know about how far punisher goes, do you? And i've yet to read or see a show or movie going as dark and deep as punisher has. You really should read Garth Ennis's run before casually making an assumption that its been done before. sure there are movies and tvs that touches some of the stuff in punisher but never to his lengths and as varied.
You keep going back to how the only use for punisher is to be a reflection of the heroes when i just explained how his story can be shown as something else. Not just a reflection. You seem to be stuck in the notion that the punisher is boring TO YOU and therefor can't fit in MCU when countless others have pointed otherwise. You also seem to be stuck on the notion that this punisher is nothing without the context of super heroes. which makes no sense at all.
Hasn't Dexter done as much crazy shit as the Punisher? He may not have thrown a woman repeatedly onto bulletproof glass but from what little I have watched of the show Dexter is kind of a violent sociopath.
Dexter does not hold a candle to frank castle. He is a violent sociopath but he's a child amatuer compared to the efficiency of Castle.. Dexter's show is also very local and doesn't cover as many subjects/issues as punisher. Still a good show up until the last season.
Edit: I mean, shit, look what the punisher did to these poor sob: NSFW LINK: http://i.imgur.com/E9qyj.jpg
Jest Chillin
Member
Marvel is not going to go that dark and deep. It doesn't fit their branding and the tone would be so far from the rest of the MCU that it would be jarring, to say the least.
You explained that he goes deeper and darker than anything else. This only stands out in a positive light when juxtaposed to the moral high ground of heroes like Cap. On it's own it would just be an ultra violent movie, something that the Punisher: War Zone movie was absolutely panned for.
In your own explanation you felt the need to explain the difference in what he does versus what normal heroes do. Because the comparison needs to be made in order to appreciate what he's sacrificing. Without the Lawful Good to measure him against.. without it existing.. then the world just appears to be this dark, depressing, evil place. Which is wearing. It's like the difference between The Watchmen and Sin City.
I never said that Punisher was boring. I said I didn't find him intriguing/interesting. I've since clarified (though since we're talking about his potential for TV, I don't think I should have to) that I'm specifically talking about his potential use in the MCU. I don't see how he can be interesting in the MCU because they would most likely never go full dark end Punisher and going lighter with him wouldn't be interesting or unique. It wouldn't do his character justice. It would just be including Punisher simply to include Punisher.
Sigh..I'm just gonna say that the MCU is big enough for the punisher to fit perfectly in, whether YOU think so or not.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
I think as it stands now, Castle would be best used as a foil to highlight just how close Matt is to the edge.
Or to go on black op missions against his will at Fury's behest.
Or to go on black op missions against his will at Fury's behest.
Jest Chillin
Member
I think you're ignoring the market that Marvel is going for. There has yet to be a Hard R film in the MCU and Daredevil is slated to be the darkest yet but will still likely be tame by cable tv standards.
i'm not ignoring anything. Nor am i dismissing anything like some.
You must not be keeping up with Agents of Shield
Jest Chillin
Member
Watched every ep since the series premiere. AoS has some dark stuff by broadcast standards but doesn't touch cable standards.
jackissocool
Member
Speaking of how the MCU isn't dark enough for the Punisher (whether that argument is true or not), do you think they could go with some kid-targeted shows on ABC family or one of the Disney channels? Maybe Squirrel Girl, KK Ms. Marvel, or even a slightly older Power Pack? Netflix is going darker than the movies, maybe something else could go lighter?
That.....actually wouldn't be a bad idea.
jackissocool
Member
The comics exist in one universe and have a huge range of tones and target audiences. The MCU is dipping its toes in that now. I'd like to see them go all out.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
I'm assuming it'll be about the level of violence and sexuality and swearing of Justified
super-famicom
Member
eastx
Member
That stuff is why I lost interest in reading modern Punisher. Nasty and unpleasant, unlike the fun older stuff.
Then again, I'd still love him to show up in the Netflix shows as a foil. Perhaps Jess Chillin's one-man war on the Punisher will finally be resolved by then.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Current stuff hews closer to the more fun 90s stuff. Edmondson and Rucka are definitely worth a shot if you liked the older Punisher stuff.
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