BossDarkseid
Member
It's not like I didn't have a huge backlog but Secret Wars has made me want to collect Hickman's entire Marvel run. But I also wanted to dabble in Ultimate F4 a bit more. Ah, comics..
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Marvels Secret Wars by Hickman & Ribic |OT| Everything ends... Everything begins
- Thread starter Mudcrab
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Lashley
Why does he wear the mask!?
People do this in the Comics OT and discuss it
CloudyTuba
Member
I just now caught up with the last couple issues of this thing. Trying to ingest all these happenings and dont quite understand a couple things.
Reed and Doom disagreed about how to handle reassembling the universe but the details of their plans and their motivations elude me. There will of course be spoilers:
1.
What made Doom think that throwing everyone into a Battleworld was the best way instead of just recreating everything like normal? Was he just greedy to be a god and keep everything under tight control? Why would Dr Strange agree with him that this was the best option and team up with him?
When I started the event it seemed implied that Doom just did his best in a last-ditch effort to save whatever he could and Battleworld was the less-than-ideal result. So he worked with it. But the end makes it seem like he chose this and had the power to change it at any time. Why would he choose this? Is it just because he's an asshole? I dont get it.
2.
And Reed: After he was put in charge, he went ahead and worked with Molecule Man to recreate a Prime Universe that ran pretty normally, then spin off alternate realities. Who is really calling the shots of the details? For example, what reason would he have to place Miles in 616 instead of just recreating 1610? What is the logic behind the shifts and changes?
3.
Also, when Doom threw everyone together onto Battleworld, it seems they were indeed their past counterparts from whatever reality they came from, just with fucked up memories. But when Reed recreated the universe, there was only one reality, and then more later spun off from them. Does this mean that only some 616 people are still actually themselves in the new Prime, and literally every single other living being in the multiverse is a spin-off recreation? So for example, Spidey 2099 616 got erased by Reed, then Reed recreated a new Spidey 2099 equivalent? Did Reed really just throw all those people in the trash? Is that what the Doom vs Reed argument is really about? Whether to try and save what remains, or throw it out and start fresh?
4.
And regarding how Battleworld worked, if the residents of Battleworld were "saved" by Doom from collapsed realities and then placed there with warped memories based on their new reality, why did the Battleworld version of 616 have a Spider-Man? It should have been lacking one since 616 Spidey actually escaped the collapse, and therefore couldnt have been saved and placed on Battleworld.
Reed and Doom disagreed about how to handle reassembling the universe but the details of their plans and their motivations elude me. There will of course be spoilers:
1.
What made Doom think that throwing everyone into a Battleworld was the best way instead of just recreating everything like normal? Was he just greedy to be a god and keep everything under tight control? Why would Dr Strange agree with him that this was the best option and team up with him?
When I started the event it seemed implied that Doom just did his best in a last-ditch effort to save whatever he could and Battleworld was the less-than-ideal result. So he worked with it. But the end makes it seem like he chose this and had the power to change it at any time. Why would he choose this? Is it just because he's an asshole? I dont get it.
2.
And Reed: After he was put in charge, he went ahead and worked with Molecule Man to recreate a Prime Universe that ran pretty normally, then spin off alternate realities. Who is really calling the shots of the details? For example, what reason would he have to place Miles in 616 instead of just recreating 1610? What is the logic behind the shifts and changes?
3.
Also, when Doom threw everyone together onto Battleworld, it seems they were indeed their past counterparts from whatever reality they came from, just with fucked up memories. But when Reed recreated the universe, there was only one reality, and then more later spun off from them. Does this mean that only some 616 people are still actually themselves in the new Prime, and literally every single other living being in the multiverse is a spin-off recreation? So for example, Spidey 2099 616 got erased by Reed, then Reed recreated a new Spidey 2099 equivalent? Did Reed really just throw all those people in the trash? Is that what the Doom vs Reed argument is really about? Whether to try and save what remains, or throw it out and start fresh?
4.
And regarding how Battleworld worked, if the residents of Battleworld were "saved" by Doom from collapsed realities and then placed there with warped memories based on their new reality, why did the Battleworld version of 616 have a Spider-Man? It should have been lacking one since 616 Spidey actually escaped the collapse, and therefore couldnt have been saved and placed on Battleworld.
D
Deleted member 13876
Unconfirmed Member
Seems for this event Bendis just did whatever he felt like, as evidenced by just barely setting up the event in his books and outright refusing to introduce plot elements Hickman used in Time Runs Out such as Nation X. He completely disregarded the characterization of Doom Hickman was going with and Ultimate End was an aimless story based around the quicklyy fading novelty of people having tired banter with alt universe counterpart.
Number 2 was implied to be a favor to Miles by Molecule Man.
CloudyTuba
Member
Thanks for answering.
So that answer to #4 is that the book was bullshit and to just ignore it.
For #2 though, I thought getting his mom back was the favor. I dont get why shoving him into another universe is a favor instead of giving him back his own. Though maybe the answer to that is in my point #3. Perhaps it was that, or being erased entirely? And then a new Miles gets created instead? The favor was letting him persist, so he ended up in Prime since that was the only reality that existed at first. Is that it?
1. He did indeed everything he could to save the remnants of the worlds, and to make something with it. He was quite successful in doing so, but he lacked the vision, or imagination, to recreate what was lost.
3. No one is themselves. Or everyone is. Everybody died with the end of the universe, and Reed recreated everything. The few people who survived the end of the world through their raft, died at the end of Battleworld. The only person we know for sure to have survived these events is Black Panther. A bunch of other people managed to keep some memories of the stuff, but even those were technically dead and reborn.
Note that this event brings some philosophical arguments, very similar to the teleporter argument: if your body and mind are destroyed then recreated identically down to the molecules and brain wave pattern, are you still the same person? You sure feel the same.
CloudyTuba
Member
So not even the few 616ers who survived on the raft and through to the end of Battleworld were retained? They were trashed and recreated, too? I thought they were just placed in the new Prime with their memories warped to fit the new reality. It conveniently explains why Miles is in the Prime Universe, because otherwise it doesnt make sense to me (per my above post).
But doesn't Sue remember the raft? That seems like something she shouldnt remember if she's a recreation. I thought Molecule Man was able to pluck her out and save her from that event.
The only confirmed 616ers in the new Prime universe are Black Panther (through the power of the infinity gauntlet) and I assume Reed, then. Is this disputed among fans? I'd prefer to think it's like I mentioned above, that 616 Spidey got placed into the Prime Universe with adjusted memories and circumstances matching the new reality.
Not that it really matters I guess. Yes it does get into the teleporter argument and that's a whole can of worms, haha. But it makes me feel more comfortable to be able to refer to them as the "same" people they were before Secret Wars. And maybe that's purely up to my own personal preference.
This is my take on it, with the big explosion at the end of Battleworld, and Reed and Franklin recreating the whole prime universe.
Sue and the Future foundation were rescued off-panel by a Molecule Man travelling back in time or something like that. She hints at remembering everything up to the raft, she wasn't a part of Battleworld.
I don't really know what to say about misplaced people from other universes like Ultimate, 2099 or Old Man Logan, there is no logical reason to put all of them into a single universe where they don't belong. It just feels like they needed an event to bring a bunch of people into the main books.
Sue and the Future foundation were rescued off-panel by a Molecule Man travelling back in time or something like that. She hints at remembering everything up to the raft, she wasn't a part of Battleworld.
I don't really know what to say about misplaced people from other universes like Ultimate, 2099 or Old Man Logan, there is no logical reason to put all of them into a single universe where they don't belong. It just feels like they needed an event to bring a bunch of people into the main books.
I think that was Reed using molecule man's power, since the beyonders abilities don't allow them to travel through time, with T'chala opening that portal with the time gem.
Jack Remington
Banned
I haven't actually read any All New All Different, but there are villains, right?
Why would Reed and Franklin remake the multiverse with villains?
Why would Reed and Franklin remake the multiverse with villains?
Presumably the whole free will thing.
Might as well ask why they remade it with cancer, etc.
Story wise, there have been villains who became good, and good things happened because of bad stuff happening.
So yeah, free will, yadda yadda yadda.
It's the difference in philosophy between maintaining an iron grip on whatever you can hold onto as opposed to letting something grow on it's own.
"Don't you see, Victor. A tree is a seed in it's realized state"
Think of what was left after SW#1 as a seed called Battleworld. Doom tried his best to prevent what was left of the multiverse and the Beyonders' power from growing becasue he could keep it safe firmly in his grip, where as Reed, Franklin and Molecule Man simply planted all that potential and let it grow on it's own into the new multiverse.
"I'm letting go"
Mighty Chin
Banned
Franklin Sucks. I hate that character.
"Shut UP Wesley!"
"Shut UP Wesley!"
My friend linked me to an interview with Esad Ribic and this one part in particular he explains how and why there were so many delays.
I knew it wasn't Hickman's or Ribic's fault I KNEW IT!
I knew it wasn't Hickman's or Ribic's fault I KNEW IT!
Finished reading Secret Wars Too and Infinity Gauntlet. Secret Wars Too was pretty meh. The self-depreciating humor was more miss than hit, and most of the parody stories just didn't seem all that funny. Seemed like a pretty low comedy effort in general. Infinity Gauntlet on the other hand was AMAZING. Weaver's art is top-tier, and his layouts are so great to look at. Really nice coloring too. I expected it to be a wacky Nova Family vs Thanos sort of story, which it was at first, but was really surprised when it turned into a full on Guardians of the Galaxy What If too. The story is simple but really tight, and the narrative flowed really well. Loved the set pieces too. Extremely creative mini that took great advantage of the Secret Wars situation to tell a unique story.
So I've been reading this storyline on Marvel Unlimited ( so I'm rough in September 2015) and I have to say it's one of the more disappointing events in my 25 years of reading comics.
I'm still enjoying the main Secret Wars book (even though I actually think Hickman is overrated, and writes convoluted stories that are difficult to follow, like there are missing chapters).
However, basically all of the tie-ins are basically meaningless. They are effectively What If?! stories that appear to lead nowhere. At this point, about 3 or 4 have concluded in Unlimited, and I realize they were just pointless, and not really that great. Do any of the tie-ins actually go anywhere, or do they all end anticlimactally?
I'm still enjoying the main Secret Wars book (even though I actually think Hickman is overrated, and writes convoluted stories that are difficult to follow, like there are missing chapters).
However, basically all of the tie-ins are basically meaningless. They are effectively What If?! stories that appear to lead nowhere. At this point, about 3 or 4 have concluded in Unlimited, and I realize they were just pointless, and not really that great. Do any of the tie-ins actually go anywhere, or do they all end anticlimactally?
Palette Swap
Member
Hooray, my Amazon preorder for the hardcover just shipped.
One thing annoys me about these Hickman hardcovers: they're doing Secret Wars, Time Runs Out, and Infinity right, by having a single volume, but they totally botched the pre-Infinity stuff by having a New Avengers OSHC that severely overlap with Infinity.
One thing annoys me about these Hickman hardcovers: they're doing Secret Wars, Time Runs Out, and Infinity right, by having a single volume, but they totally botched the pre-Infinity stuff by having a New Avengers OSHC that severely overlap with Infinity.
Like every major Marvel event, the Tie In's are all fluff. Read em if the idea behind them interests you, but none of them tie into the main story in any significant way. The only stories that even really touch on the main plot are Siege and (in a *very* minor way) Thors.
So yeah, I finally finished Secret Wars. I collected the runs I wanted to collect; I'm fine with my singles collection though I suppose now omnibuses are the goal for stories I missed out on due to lack of interest and money though it seems like everyone liked Siege though I'm now noticing Infinity Gauntlet is getting praise.
CloudyTuba
Member
I liked the main event but it's true that all of the tie-ins were pretty meaningless to the event itself. Just explorations of the main events implications about battleworld. Mostly useless. Off the top of my head the only ones I remember truly enjoying are Old Man Logan and Renew Your Vows.
I've got the SW hardcover coming my way now and plan on picking up the full Time Runs Out when that gets out. Secret Wars feels more like a series finale to TRO rather than a full event in itself. Together they feel pretty complete.
ShadowSwordmaster
Banned
The whole thing is weird when you think about.
I keep thinking about the teleportation dilemma where when you teleport someone what you're really doing is destroying them and creating a perfect copy elsewhere. Sure, it's not as bad as the New 52 where actual character histories have been changed, stories discarded, etc. Here what happened to Matt Murdock in the 616 happened to the Matt Murdock in the Prime universe in the exact same fashion but... I can't get rid of the thought that it's still not the real Matt Murdock. Comic books, man.
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