phil_t98
#SonyToo
and what's Sonys out put? they arnt even going to E3 this year
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Mattrick Vs. Spencer: exclusives have improved over the years. Xbox One Elevation Story.
- Thread starter Voost Kain
- Start date
and what's Sonys out put? they arnt even going to E3 this year
Arachnid
Member
I'd give a small edge to Spencer. Both of their biggest games are established franchises (Gears, Forza, Halo) but Spencer has the best entries (Horizon 3, Gears 4, complete restoration of MCC). I also really liked State of Decay (though it shouldn't have been marketed as such a big console exclusive game; these are indy through and through). Spencer also has more promise since he's acquired so many great studios. IMO he'll have a better impact on Xbox overall by the time he's through.
Voost Kain
Banned
You are literally making things up and mixing in an unrelated issue to act like Xbox has never made money.
Then seconds on google have MS discussing Xbox profits, even two investors, multiple times from 2007 to 2010, Kinect and so on.
Basically you Google what you wanted to using invalid information from a crap source or having no idea what you're talking about. First Xbox being the exception bit that's widely known.
Let me ask this, was all those years of Xbox reporting profits when they did lies? Because for one that's not legally smart, and second, investors would try them.
Of course you won't answer this question, just double down.
Psykodad
Banned
Sony will have their own event.
You really think they just cancelled all events and skip 2019?
Voost Kain
Banned
The real answer is the dynamic trio of Bach, Fries and Allard.
(Kudos to Allard for getting in awesome shape!)
I like how some on this forum mentally just can't keep to the thread subject, they have to put in the unrelated attention seeking edgy post which doesn't really add anything. I've seen it so many times it amazes me every time. A Xbox One thread talking about lists of Xbox One games and which guy did better on Xbox One: "oh ill make a post about some guy who has nothing to do with the thread topic dododo. "
Vawn
Banned
DilWSTS
Member
That seems a lot like conjecture than fact. I dont even own an xbox but slapping together rare replay wouldnt have taken a long time. what would have taken some time are the bonus footage and features. Mattrick left in like June 2013 or something and Rare Replay was announced June 2015. I dont think Rare Replay took over 2 years to create.
Starbuck2907
Member
Because if they can't beat PS4 at software this gen, at least they can sell the most powerful console and not get beat on the "power" front. Plus, because it's selling well and what corporation turns down money?
Putting Allard in this thread for scale is kind of useful? I mean everything the current Xbox division has goes back to his time as CEO.
Best hardware, aggressive digital distribution, Xbox Live and attractive exclusive franchises is what Spencer tries to return to.
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OP you're cherry picking what's a flop and what not changing the rules as you wish to prove your point.
You want to believe in Phil Spencer as a saviour or something like that, it's pretty common among Xbox fans.
But the reality is different. Mattrick was not the source of all evil, he simply followed the direction that the whole company was going back then with Ballmer as a CEO and Spencer was there as well and managed first party development.
It was Phil Spencer that decided to reboot and continue to develop Crackdown 3 for years and the ending result was a disappointment, not Don Mattrick who left in 2013.
Sea of Thieves was a big disappointment at least at launch, State of Decay nothing special at all.
Gears 4 was not able to bring the series back to its past glory.
Scalebound was cancelled, Fable Legends was cancelled under Spencer.
So no Phil Spencer has been a disappointment as well relatively to first party development.
You want to believe in Phil Spencer as a saviour or something like that, it's pretty common among Xbox fans.
But the reality is different. Mattrick was not the source of all evil, he simply followed the direction that the whole company was going back then with Ballmer as a CEO and Spencer was there as well and managed first party development.
It was Phil Spencer that decided to reboot and continue to develop Crackdown 3 for years and the ending result was a disappointment, not Don Mattrick who left in 2013.
Sea of Thieves was a big disappointment at least at launch, State of Decay nothing special at all.
Gears 4 was not able to bring the series back to its past glory.
Scalebound was cancelled, Fable Legends was cancelled under Spencer.
So no Phil Spencer has been a disappointment as well relatively to first party development.
ethomaz
Banned
The Last of Us Part 2
Dreams
Ghost of Tsushima
Death Stranding
Days Gone
I probably forget some.
Sony has no issue outputing games.
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PuppetMaster
Member
Microsoft could have totally locked down Respawn. And they could be curent owners of Apex which is looking to be a fortnite level sucess. Just think of that. They totally missed that boat.
Instead because Titanfall flopped MS seemed to quickly lose interest in working with them. So Respawn had to work closer with EA. And eventually gave up being independent and had to sell thier company to EA.
Lots of companies abandon studios or partnerships that don't make money. Not just MS. But MS seems to make particularly bad decisions in this area. And the fact that EA of all companies saw potential in Respawn, while MS totally dropped that relationship is pretty damming.
Instead because Titanfall flopped MS seemed to quickly lose interest in working with them. So Respawn had to work closer with EA. And eventually gave up being independent and had to sell thier company to EA.
Lots of companies abandon studios or partnerships that don't make money. Not just MS. But MS seems to make particularly bad decisions in this area. And the fact that EA of all companies saw potential in Respawn, while MS totally dropped that relationship is pretty damming.
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LuvOfThaGame
Banned
Look at the names that voted for Don. It's Sony fans. Like...why? Really. Why? If anyone needed more reasons to see these certain fans as having no other intent to express their discontent with the green vs blue brand than just to agitate others on the internet, look no further. Lol. I don't believe them at all.
ethomaz
Banned
Because the OP asked only about first-party library.
Anybody voting in Phil about this subject is not being honest.
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brap
Banned
No they're all sony fans. All 30 of them. You're telling me you don't keep notes on whether people are sony fans or not?
I don't think you can have Fortnite's level of success on any single platform anymore. Even scaled to the relative platform size. MP titles are either big hits or niche titles.
MS was in a particulary bad position withe the Xbox One co-finance exclusives. The amount of money and money-like perks they had to give to developers to make up for the loss of revenue on the PS4 must have been colossal.
thelastword
Banned
Man, I even forgot about Crimson Dragon.........There was also Loco Cycle at 48 Meta.......Yet, that fighting game at 48 Meta, isnt that Fighter Within? That's a 23 on Meta btw....playing fast and loose with the word success
Well it's not selling well at MSRP for a while now, so they're losing money....
Yes, not only that, but MS had to spend over 1.1 billion dollars to correct RROD.....Their software run slim in 2009 where they chased kinect, so we're talking about 4 years and bit on the train, yet those years still stung hard with RROD.....Yes, Live helped them out, but I'm not sure that was enough to recoup costs on all their misgivings......They banked hard on Kinect, but the software there was the laughing stock back then and that created many memes and many mocking videos on youtube and the internet......I'm not sure they were successful with 360 either....Certainly they were successful with unit sales, but then with RROD and the 54% failure rate, that's not saying much.....
I understand the point you're making and it's a good one, but you never know with these things......Who knows, MS may have never greenlighted Apex, they probably would just ask these guys to continue making Titanfall or perhaps change how Apex plays entirely......The other thing is, if Apex was exclusive, it probably would not be anywhere close to being the success that it is currently.......This game is on PC/PS4 and XB and the majority of the players are on the first two platforms.....
Like I always say, bring back J Allard and Robbie Bach to XBOX, these guys were great, down to earth, interviewed well, had great personalities and loved gaming.......XBOX has never seen better days....The real answer is the dynamic trio of Bach, Fries and Allard.
(Kudos to Allard for getting in awesome shape!)
alabtrosMyster
Member
How low did you have to put the bad to mark all these games as successes? the word has lost all of its sense!
- The XBOS was marketed as a 4K capable machine, pure lies... some people though that was the X!
- Most games on the list that are not ORI or the forza titles had lukewarm reception at best
If they were on Sony or Nintendo consoles they would not even have been talked about (I mean, was The Order 1886 a success too?).
Badlucktroll
Member
I wish they went ahead and did that Peter Jackson produced Halo game.
Wimbledon
Member
Sunset Overdrive is awesome, one of the few games that i did want to see a sequel for. I had so much fun in that game.
Sea of thieves good idea , i haven't played in awhile but i know there are people who do play it , whose loving it now then when it came out initally.
To be fair both of them went with what works which are the main exclusives. But ill give Spencer props betting on the online store and moving games to PC especially the exclusives he gets my vote for that.
Halo infinite coming out on PC , made me do a flip right out of my seat when it was announced. They keep doing that with there games, then i imagine spencer would be hands down the greatest thing that happened to Xbox.
Sea of thieves good idea , i haven't played in awhile but i know there are people who do play it , whose loving it now then when it came out initally.
To be fair both of them went with what works which are the main exclusives. But ill give Spencer props betting on the online store and moving games to PC especially the exclusives he gets my vote for that.
Halo infinite coming out on PC , made me do a flip right out of my seat when it was announced. They keep doing that with there games, then i imagine spencer would be hands down the greatest thing that happened to Xbox.
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Wimbledon
Member
MS could have also had BIOWARE ! Mass Effect 1 came out around the time Halo 3 and gears. I remember calling those three series the big 3 for MS.
Halo
Mass effect
Gears
They had it all , i was amazed that they never bought them. I was so frustrated.
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Rhazer Fusion
Member
Agreed. Imho, these were the best Xbox exclusives and the x360 had some good ones as well.
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Tripolygon
Banned
That's because people see this thread for what it is. A let's praise Phil Spencer thread. In my personal opinion, Phil spencer had a hand in pretty much every game on that list, he has been in charge of Xbox games since 360. It's just rather perculiar why op would choose to divide the games up between Don Mattrick and Phil Spencer. I voted for Don simply because well let me explain below.
Phil Spencer FP output:
- Gears of War 4 (success) Started development under Don at Epic before Microsoft bought the IP
- Forza Horizon 3 (big success)
- Forza Horizon 4 (big success)Two racing games that would be successful regardless of whether they were under Don or Phil as head of Xbox
- Halo Wars 2 (success)
- Halo MCC(big success, dead MP scene restored)Started development when Don was there.
- Record (flop)
- State of Decay (success) Started development under Don
- Forza 7 (barely success)
- State of Decay 2 (success)
- Phantom Dust (niche success)
- Ori Definitive (success) It's Ori which Started development under Don. One of my favorite games this gen
- Cobalt (success) Started development under Don
- Sea of Theives (Success) All evidence points to the game starting development when Don was still head of Xbox.
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IncognitoPanda
Member
As much as I dislike him and mainly blame him for Xones blunder, the first party output was better when he was in charge. Phil was head of MS studios or a similar position then, but the point still stands.
Yes, crackdown turned out to be a bust, but there were some nice titles at the start of the generation like KI and SO. Most studio shutdowns happened under phil.
With that said, it's not just the head of xbox that decides how good stuff turn out. I'm sure there were budget constraints after XOs launch which phil had to deal with then, thus closing down non-profitable studios etc. I think it looks more complicated on the inside.
Greatest Ever
Member
They both stink.
ResilientBanana
Member
I like Spencer as he did turn the Xbox brand around after such a shitty reveal. But his true efforts have not yet been seen and I think we will see that during the Scarlet era.
You're making up stuff that makes no sense to deflect. All indications are that Microsoft burned money from Xbox which is why they had to be throw in royalties into what the considered the Xbox division at that time - the amount was roughly $2 billiion a year. Robbie Back was the President of Entertainment & Devices Division at Microsoft i.e. what people considered the Xbox division. He said the original Xbox division lost $5-7b, but Microsoft does not break down particular product lines, generally speaking. Then he said later, the Xbox Division was profitable (during the X360) - but investors figured out this didn't just include Xbox 360/Zune but also Android phone royalties into the Xbox division to make it look like they were making a profit from cocktail napkin accounting.
"Let me ask this, was all those years of Xbox reporting profits when they did lies?"
Reporting was not a lie, the "deception" was they were sneaking in Android phone royalties into the Xbox division i.e. roughly $2 billion a year. The amount of losses on Xbox will probably never be truly known as that is now how Microsoft reports, generally speaking. Its called deception, but its not a lie - you have to dig into the financial filings to see.
Which is why investors including Gates was supporting spinning Xbox off, the issue with that is unless they found a buyer it couldn't support itself.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikka...solutely-supports-xbox-spin-off/#153b1a759e57
Please read before responding. As of 2015, the Xbox division (Entertainment & Devices Division) doesn't exist, they rolled Xbox into what was primarily the Windows Division (Other Personal Computing), in 2018 Nadella made it even hard to calculate Xbox losses - its now spread out across multiple divisions. Please provide the financial documents that Xbox "as a product or service" has ever turned a profit, please note take out any numbers associated with Android royalty payments. They might be able to turn a quarterly or annual profit on Xbox (although this is not how they report) but that just in a financial quarter or year, that does not take in account that they probably have lost $10s of billions on the Xbox product - its a financial loser on a huge scale which is why they hide the sausage.
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LuvOfThaGame
Banned
TLDR; TLW
Yeah, that's why I stayed away from it, how about none of the above.... also what exclusives have improved? From a sales perspective, Mattrick and its not even close. (although that's not the complete picture) Spencer, I can't say I like him, but has a tough job dealing with Nadella. imo To me, everything has gone to the crapbox once J Allard and crew left, at least from my POV. They understood gamers and loved games.
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Bolivar687
Banned
Damn, I coulda swore we were gonna keep Mattrick over 50% 
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Voost Kain
Banned
Damn, so all those years since 2007 it's been android that's been making money? Even though in 2007 android didn't exist...And then Android didn't start really chopping up share until 2010...And you have no evidence that from 2010-2019 every year only Android was causing profits....which is also a contradiction because you also said you don't actually know the real numbers but are speaking in a factual matter they lost money anyway...and you have no clue what you're talking about.
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No, after 2010 which is when Bach said Xbox 360 was profitable. You aren't making any sense, you asked for information, then I gave it to you and you either failed to read it or are unable to comprehend.
"Damn, so all those years since 2007 it's been android that's been making money?"
There has been almost no proof of making money from Xbox during 2007, they were losing money not sure what you are referring to, it was later they hinted that "Xbox" was profitable but it was really the division in which they were placing Android royalties. (All of this is covered in the articles I provided that you apparently don't understand) THIS WAS DISCOVERED LATER. Yes, I have no idea what I am talking about yet you can't point out where or how.
"which is also a contradiction because you also said you don't actually know the real numbers but are speaking in a factual matter they lost money anyway"
Exactly, they were hinting that Xbox was profitable but those numbers included royalty payments of $2b PER YEAR , generally Microsoft does not break down individual products like that in their financials. Yes, Gates wanted to spin off Xbox because it was making money. LOL He was wanting to dump the loser he created. The true losses of Xbox will never be known, as they don't account for it like that and they never wanted investors to know how much it was losing.
You are not providing useful information or dialogue.
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Voost Kain
Banned
That's nice, but you can easily find articles talking about the 360 being profitable since 2007 when Android didn't exist. Not to mention the belief from 2010-2019 was all android which you know, you don't have the data for, and have admitted that.
You are making assumptions without data, you admit you don't know how much Xbox made, but still make the assumption that for several years straight the Xbox never made profit, with no data.
You basically aren't saying anything except making long posts saying the same thing twice with different words. You are saying the Xbox division hasn't been profitable since 2010 to now, based on no data, and that android was the reason the division was profitable all those years, with no dats. You admit you have no data, but continue to say that it's a fact, that Xbox was lying, but then say they WERE NOT lying, but Android was the only reason they had profit.
You also semi-doubled down on acting like 2007 wasn't a lie, but that Android was involved then as well, which isn't possible because Android didn't exist, and it's very unlikely that in 2008-09 when Android was getting its footing MS was getting $2 bill a year. In fact, that's unlikely until 2014, where Android would have the marketshare where that would make sense.
No, you are making the assumption that it was profitable, there is data that it wasn't profitable during the times that they hinted that it was.... no we don't have exact data we have rough data that it wasn't even close on the Xbox profit. The $5-7b loss on the original Xbox is purely a guess or round about figure by the guy that was at the top, some estimates are $4b by others - why because Microsoft does not account like that and also they wanted to hide the losses. You are doubling down on stupid, so I'll put you on my ignore list. No, there is data, the analysis was given, you can go through the financials and disagree, but you haven't done that.
You're on ignore, thanks for playing.
You're on ignore, thanks for playing.
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Fbh
Member
Based purely on personal taste and looking at that list I'd definitely go with Mattrick.
At least under him there were a few games that interested me like Ori, Quantum Break and Sunset Overdrive.
Recent MS games have no interested me. From all their currently known projects the only one I'm really looking forward to is Ori 2. And Halo Infinite which sounds interesting but after 4 and 5 will have to do a whole lot more than just promise shit to convince me.
I'm still completely unconvinced about the gamepass model and it's effect on games
At least under him there were a few games that interested me like Ori, Quantum Break and Sunset Overdrive.
Recent MS games have no interested me. From all their currently known projects the only one I'm really looking forward to is Ori 2. And Halo Infinite which sounds interesting but after 4 and 5 will have to do a whole lot more than just promise shit to convince me.
I'm still completely unconvinced about the gamepass model and it's effect on games
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Here, I'll simplify for the stupid caveman in the group.
- Xbox the product was not profitable, lost $4-7b roughly on the original, lost $1b due to RROD right out the gate on the X360, plus probably other losses on annual.
- The division the Xbox was in was profitable because they put Android royalties in the equation in the years they said it was profitable, Microsoft never hinted that the X360 was profitable before the royalties were put into the division.
- Investors found out, the Math even on a cocktail napkin wasn't even close.
The End.
- Xbox the product was not profitable, lost $4-7b roughly on the original, lost $1b due to RROD right out the gate on the X360, plus probably other losses on annual.
- The division the Xbox was in was profitable because they put Android royalties in the equation in the years they said it was profitable, Microsoft never hinted that the X360 was profitable before the royalties were put into the division.
- Investors found out, the Math even on a cocktail napkin wasn't even close.
The End.
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ethomaz
Banned
Yeah, I have no idea why he is fighting this. Basically, we don't even have rough figure on the original Xbox, but former executives have spilled the beans on that, ranges in the $4-7b area. The Xbox 360, we kind of know, meaning RROD $1b is public information, the rest is guessimation to an extent based on the royalty payments, his contention is we don't know because the royalties weren't included till a few years later - but consoles make money over time, if you are losing $1-2 billion in year 3 then you were probably losing more than that in year 1 plus R&D.
For the record, I would be surprised if it was $2b a year.
https://www.fool.com/investing/gene...microsoft-should-spin-off-its-xbox-divis.aspx
. A money-losing business
The Xbox business has likely lost money for Microsoft ever since the launch of the original console in 2001. In late 2013, Nomura analyst Rick Sherlund estimated that losses could be as high as $2 billion per year. The official figure is unclear as Xbox, Skype, Windows Phone, and patent royalties were previously grouped together under the entertainment and devices division.
Last August, Microsoft reported that its Xbox division revenue had risen 34% year-over-year to $1.7 billion, but cost of sales soared 72% to $2.1 billion due to marketing costs. Gaming consoles should become more profitable as component costs decline over time. When the Xbox One launched in November 2013, IHS revealed that the console, without the Kinect, cost $396 to manufacture.
However, subsequent price cuts on the Xbox One were so steep that the consoles are now likely still sold at a loss. Microsoft recently slashed the price of the Xbox One (console only) from $399 to $349 across the U.S. To make matters worse, those discounts are barely helping Microsoft catch up to Sony. According to Vgchartz's latest numbers, Sony has sold 18.5 million PS4 units worldwide compared to just 11 million Xbox One consoles.
Spinning off the Xbox division can help Microsoft protect its bottom line. Last quarter, the company reported a 13% year-over-year decline in net income, due to restructuring costs and steep discounts on software and hardware.
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Voost Kain
Banned
Xbox 1 was writtten off.
RROD was paid for and MS started turning profit in 2007.
Android didn't exist in 2007, and it doesn't make sense for Android to have made MS 2 billion until 2013 at the earlierst but most likely 2014, unless you think they were somehow getting 2008+ when Android was finding its footing which is nonsense.
The rest you you making shit up, or coming up with assumptions with no common sources. "investors find out" is hogwash because it wans't a complaint, only one major investor complained about Xbox on record, and multiple Xbox metric announced by MS were met with stock bumps. You are trying to create a narrative with no data, admitting you have no data, but still speaking BS anyway.
Voost Kain
Banned
Keep trying to combine the original Xbox in to be deceptive.
Also, your IHS data is debunked, on this very forum, use the search box. or just google article that contradict the IHS claim about Xbox One's profit margins, being more than the PS4's,
Hell they even use VGchartz in the article you quoted, you're not even trying
Breakfast at Noon
Member
Odd how some are labelled as a "success" when they was clearly utter horse shit.
LostDonkey
Member
Someone said sausage so it piqued my interest.
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