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[markatisu]

MANHUNT 2!

I kid, I kid

Let's see Tenchu 4, Zack&Wiki, Chocobo no fushigina dungeoun, Harvest Moon (the latest one), Trauma Center 2, Disaster Day of Crisis (this one published by nintendo), Captain Rainbow (this too) comes to mind.

But to be honest, games like RES4 and RES EC did well. And TOS2 did pretty well for a spin-off. Games that had a following on the gamecube?

Seriously that is your big budget super AAA title list that should have blown the charts with high sales??

Chocobo has not been big since I think the PSX days, Harvest Moon is on its like 50th edition, Disaster Day of Crisis and Captain Rainbow are both in the same league

Trauma Center 2 actually sold well from everything I have read, Atlus is not a big publisher and does not expect massive hits so it falls in line with their expectations.

TOS2 almost did as well as TOS on the GC, but it was not at the same budget or the same marketing.

There is nothing in your list that even remotely backs up your claim that big games bomb on Wii

 

[RpgN]

you must live in an alternate universe then because there has yet to be a decent budgeted and marketed 3rd party attempt that has failed (for that matter that has yet to be a decent budgeted and marketed 3rd party game for Wii)

And remember we are talking about Japan in this thread, GTAIV, COD4 and others you mention do not sell truck loads in Japan in comparison to rhythm games and other genres

Okay...I will leave your comment (that has been said billion times and holds no value).

And don't pull the 'Japan only' card on me, it still won't change the outcome and the idea.

Eteric Rice, I kind of agree. I have no idea how they would have faired on the other consoles, though I would expect more from Disaster and (indeed) Tenchu 4.

 

[markatisu]

Okay...I will leave your comment (that has been said billion times and holds no value).

And don't pull the 'Japan only' card on me, it still won't change the outcome and the idea.

Whatever you say man, you are 100% correct on everything that comes out of your mouth I guess

 

[Weisheit]

MANHUNT 2!

I kid, I kid

Let's see Tenchu 4, Zack&Wiki, Chocobo no fushigina dungeoun, Harvest Moon (the latest one), Trauma Center 2, Disaster Day of Crisis (this one published by nintendo), Captain Rainbow (this too) comes to mind.

But to be honest, games like RES4 and RES EC did well. And TOS2 did pretty well for a spin-off. Games that had a following on the gamecube?

Are you seriously trying to pass these off as "big budget" games?


Really?

 

[RpgN]

Whatever you say man, you are 100% correct on everything that comes out of your mouth I guess

Sorry, but that comment about how a game should be done with great effort and has full marketing is nothing but a myth. Even games like RES 4 (port), RES UC (average spin-off) and TOS2 (spin-off, oke) doesn't back-up your comment.

I was asked to name a list of games that were quite good and done with effort, that bombed. The games I listed are good and should have sold better no matter how small the marketing/budget is.

EDIT

Weisheit, this reply pretty much applies for you as well.

 

[apujanata]

Sorry, but that comment about how a game should be done with great effort and has full marketing is nothing but a myth. Even games like RES 4 (port), RES UC (average spin-off) and TOS2 (spin-off, oke) doesn't back-up your comment.

I was asked to name a list of games that were quite good and done with effort, that bombed. The games I listed are good and should have sold better no matter how small the marketing/budget is.

EDIT

Weisheit, this reply pretty much applies for you as well.

Are you suggesting that games doesn't need marketing ? Really ? I believe all the marketing staff in gaming publisher are crying their hearts out, since they are going to be fired soon.

 

[Eteric Rice]

Sorry, but that comment about how a game should be done with great effort and has full marketing is nothing but a myth. Even games like RES 4 (port), RES UC (average spin-off) and TOS2 (spin-off, oke) doesn't back-up your comment.

I was asked to name a list of games that were quite good and done with effort, that bombed. The games I listed are good and should have sold better no matter how small the marketing/budget is.

EDIT

Weisheit, this reply pretty much applies for you as well.

I'd actually agree with the guy about advertising. Gears of War, Call of Duty 4, etc, all had huge advertising campaigns. A big campaign like that helps a lot.

Anyway, the games you mentioned were efforts, but they weren't big games with heavy advertising, etc. Zack & Wiki for example. That game was good, but completely lost. Firstly, the game was hard, but had a kiddish style to appeal to the younger audience.

So, you have a game that an adult would probably enjoy, but he won't pick it up because looking at it's boxart, it looks like a kid's game. A kid might pick it up, but it's to hard for for them. It's basically an identity crisis.

TOS2 did well, especially considering how bad word of mouth was on it.

Another thing worth mentioning is that Wii games aren't front loaded. Everyone thought Boom Blox had bombed, but then later on it poped back up with EA saying it sold over a half million copies.

A lot of games you percieve as "bombed" may infact be bigger successes than you think.

 

[Weisheit]

Sorry, but that comment about how a game should be done with great effort and has full marketing is nothing but a myth. Even games like RES 4 (port), RES UC (average spin-off) and TOS2 (spin-off, oke) doesn't back-up your comment.

I was asked to name a list of games that were quite good and done with effort, that bombed. The games I listed are good and should have sold better no matter how small the marketing/budget is.

EDIT

Weisheit, this reply pretty much applies for you as well.

I hear you, but, the premise of your argument was 3rd parties have no guarantees on the Wii, so why bother, but we know that Wii 3rd party sales have exceeded those on the 360 (when looked at on a launch aligned graph). And again, thats with the (massive) gap in quality favoring the 360. I know there are a lot of important variables not covered by this chart, but if selling 30 million (mostly shitty) games isn't guarantee enough that higher quality software will sell more on average then what is?

 

[RpgN]

^
I have to agree with what you said, Eteric Rice You have some very good valids. Though then rises the question, is it really possible the developers have done no effort in the games and marketing department at all? Ps.I never argued about TOS2 selling bad. In fact, I think it sold decent.

Are you suggesting that games doesn't need marketing ? Really ? I believe all the marketing staff in gaming publisher are crying their hearts out, since they are going to be fired soon.

Say what you like, you know this not what I meant.

 

[RpgN]

I hear you, but, the premise of your argument was 3rd parties have no guarantees on the Wii, so why bother, but we know that Wii 3rd party sales have exceeded those on the 360 (when looked at on a launch aligned graph). And again, thats with the (massive) gap in quality favoring the 360. I know there are a lot of important variables not covered by this chart, but if selling 30 million (mostly shitty) games isn't guarantee enough that higher quality software will sell more on average then what is?

You might not like this answer coming from me, but those shitty games are probably the non-games developers are happy about. In their eyes, they'll keep on giving what the gamers mostly buy. I'm not sure if we'll see a serious effort coming out of them, having their core games selling fine elsewhere. The chart only gives more reasons to keep on releasing shitty games I'm afraid.

 

[apujanata]

It's fine that this thread is about Japanese sales only, but when they want to make games and look at their profits, they have to look at it from a worldwide view. While yes, I have seen companies in the red, but I have seen many companies with profits. Games are selling better than before.

Seeing many Japanese developers behind the wii, is a sign of not having the ability to compete with next gen games IMO. We'll see if they're the ones to profit in the future, or their efforts are rewarded (look at tenchu 4).

Did you realize that lots of Western publisher / developer are in the red (loss), while lots of Japanese publisher/developer are in the black (profit) ? If not, please find the game company earnings thread and browse them, it will open your eyes. It have arguments about company profit, which is more comprehensive than what I would be able to tell you.

 

[donny2112]

Third-party games sell badly on the Wii in Japan. Third-party games sell worse on the PS360 in Japan. Add in the presumed development cost and marketing budgets in Japan, and it makes the PS360 failures much worse. Big Japanese third-parties have taken to a worldwide approach to compensate for the PS360's performance in Japan. Smaller companies don't have that luxury. Smaller companies are coming to the Wii. Larger companies (including Nintendo) failed to spend the effort pulling in the PS2 core crowd to the Wii to make these smaller company games sell like they should. The generation has a long ways to go (5 or more years from now). Big Japanese companies are changing their tact. We'll see how much impact it has for those smaller company games down the road.

This source has Dawn of the New World up to 211K by now, though it's not clear exactly which week the data goes up to.

Based on the Yahoo cache (Wii Music listed as "next week's" sales for the 20081026 number), I'm going to say it is from 10/13-19.

 

[RpgN]

Third-party core games sell badly on the Wii in Japan. Third-party core games sell worse on the PS360 in Japan. Add in the presumed development cost and marketing budgets in Japan, and it makes the PS360 failures much worse. Big Japanese third-parties have taken to a worldwide approach to compensate for the PS360's performance in Japan. Smaller companies don't have that luxury. Smaller companies are coming to the Wii. Larger companies (including Nintendo) failed to spend the effort pulling in the PS2 core crowd to the Wii to make these smaller company games sell like they should. The generation has a long ways to go (5 or more years from now). Big Japanese companies are changing their tact. We'll see how much impact it has for those smaller company games down the road.

You have said it well, probably better than I have could.

 

[Stormbringer]

Third-party games sell badly on the Wii in Japan. Third-party games sell worse on the PS360 in Japan. Add in the presumed development cost and marketing budgets in Japan, and it makes the PS360 failures much worse. Big Japanese third-parties have taken to a worldwide approach to compensate for the PS360's performance in Japan. Smaller companies don't have that luxury. Smaller companies are coming to the Wii. Larger companies (including Nintendo) failed to spend the effort pulling in the PS2 core crowd to the Wii to make these smaller company games sell like they should. The generation has a long ways to go (5 or more years from now). Big Japanese companies are changing their tact. We'll see how much impact it has for those smaller company games down the road.

I agree with you, but I would add that some Japanese companies are also starting to take a worldwide approach with the Wii, and not necessarily the biggest companies out there. Just take a look at some of MMV's sales results and expectations, or think about the fact that pretty much every major, unveiled MMV Wii game has already been confirmed for localization in the West, or that NMH2 is simply exclusive to the American and PAL territories so far. Another example would be From Software and Tenchu 4, which is the core of a localization deal with Ubisoft, which they announced at the same conference where they unveiled the game (made a big deal about it too), and reportedly the game will even be polished up significantly as it makes it to the West.
That really seems to be a good approach too, as the Wii market seems so much more receptive in the West...

 

[Kittonwy]

Wait how come PS3 sold so much last week?

 

[Eteric Rice]

Wait how come PS3 sold so much last week?

LBP and GTAIV plus a new bundle.

Don't you worry, t'll drop back down in no time.

 

[domokunrox]

PS3 | 39,587 | 3,931 | 53,977 | 743,459 | 2,385,135
WII | 23,123 | 24,292 | 96,316 | 2,311,804 | 6,927,943
360 | 6,119 | 7,844 | 29,582 | 226,748 | 735,193

My reaction was, "HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLY SHIT!"

 

[Eteric Rice]

You might not like this answer coming from me, but those shitty games are probably the non-games developers are happy about. In their eyes, they'll keep on giving what the gamers mostly buy. I'm not sure if we'll see a serious effort coming out of them, having their core games selling fine elsewhere. The chart only gives more reasons to keep on releasing shitty games I'm afraid.

Actually, I've spoken to a few supposed devs (one worked at a major company, but he wouldn't say where), and they say that they want to make better games (and they have a lot of ideas), but the head honchos come and tell them to remove this and that to appeal to the non-gamers.

Most of these devs likely aren't proud of these games.

 

[ccbfan]

I always find it funny that whenever the 3rd party support discussion pops up, DS/PSP are always ignored.

This is 2008 not 1998. In Japan the handhelds aren't just a peripheral market anymore. It is the main market. Before the major third party efforts always went to the home consoles while the side projects/ports went to the handhelds now as we've seen with many major series like DQ, tales, KH, FF, ect handhelds are the dominate market especially games with little western audience.

So no, the Wii isn't the winner in Japan, its in third place with terrible 3rd party game sales.

Before people start complaining about PS3 and 360 getting major japanese games. Most of them were announced a long time ago with probably a good dash of money hats. Seriously what was the last major 3rd party announcement for either of these?

 

[Liabe Brave]

Before people start complaining about PS3 and 360 getting major japanese games. Most of them were announced a long time ago with probably a good dash of money hats. Seriously what was the last major 3rd party announcement for either of these?

Depends on what you count as "major". From and Tecmo both announced PS3 exclusives at TGS in October, and From also announced a 360 exclusive.

 

[donny2112]

That really seems to be a good approach too, as the Wii market seems so much more receptive in the West...

To core games, definitely. I believe that has a lot to do with the fact that GameCube software was still selling at a pretty good clip all the way until the Wii's release in the U.S. Those core gamers on the GameCube transitioned nicely to form a good base in the U.S. In Japan, conversely, the market pretty much completely died for GCN after 2003/2004. Very few core gamers were left to transition from the GCN to the Wii by the time 2006 rolled around.

I always find it funny that whenever the 3rd party support discussion pops up, DS/PSP are always ignored.

DS (and to a much lesser extent PSP) now occupy the position of the PS2 from last generation in Japan as the major software driver. The consoles are fighting over the GBA portion.

 

[Eteric Rice]

To core games, definitely. I believe that has a lot to do with the fact that GameCube software was still selling at a pretty good clip all the way until the Wii's release in the U.S. Those core gamers on the GameCube transitioned nicely to form a good base in the U.S. In Japan, conversely, the market pretty much completely died for GCN after 2003/2004. Very few core gamers were left to transition from the GCN to the Wii by the time 2006 rolled around.



DS (and to a much lesser extent PSP) now occupy the position of the PS2 from last generation in Japan as the major software driver. The consoles are fighting over the GBA portion.

I don't really see it that way quite yet.

Though if things like Final Fantasy's sequels go to handhelds instead of consoles, it'll probably be over in my eyes.

 

[-Kh-]

I don't really see it that way quite yet.

Though if things like Final Fantasy's sequels go to handhelds instead of consoles, it'll probably be over in my eyes.

Final Fantasy? lol


I give you

Welcome to 2006, when the king was chosen.

 

[Eteric Rice]

Final Fantasy? lol


I give you

Welcome to 2006, when the king was chosen.

No, I mean that in my mind, if Final Fantasy goes to the DS, it's the undisputed replacement for consoles because Final Fantasy is considered (sadly imo) a "cinimatic" game that "pushes boundaries." If it gets that one, it'll be a huuuge message to the world saying, "CONSOLES ARE DEAD IN JAPAN, LONG LIVE HANDHELDS."

Dragon Quest while godly, isn't really considered cinimatic. It's considered a much loved traditional RPG.

It could happen, but won't happen on the DS. Maybe the next handheld.

 

[donny2112]

No, I mean that in my mind, if Final Fantasy goes to the DS, it's the undisputed replacement for consoles because Final Fantasy is considered (sadly imo) a "cinimatic" game that "pushes boundaries." If it gets that one, it'll be a huuuge message to the world saying, "CONSOLES ARE DEAD IN JAPAN, LONG LIVE HANDHELDS."

To my understanding, the current people behind Final Fantasy at Square Enix are big technological pushers. As long as that's the case, Final Fantasy (mainline, not remakes) won't be coming to handhelds ever. Also, consoles taking the "GBA" portion doesn't mean they're dead, but rather just a clear second in overall selling strength. You can browse some of the 2002/2003 Famitsu Top 30 charts at Garaph to get an idea of what I'm talking about. GBA is definitely present but just as a clear second to PS2.

 

[Eteric Rice]

To my understanding, the current people behind Final Fantasy at Square Enix are big technological pushers. As long as that's the case, Final Fantasy (mainline, not remakes) won't be coming to handhelds ever. Also, consoles taking the "GBA" portion doesn't mean they're dead, but rather just a clear second in overall selling strength. You can browse some of the 2002/2003 Famitsu Top 30 charts at Garaph to get an idea of what I'm talking about. GBA is definitely present but just as a clear second to PS2.

We'll see when it comes to Final Fantasy, but these days you can never know. Japan itself is headed towards handhelds, if it goes there completely, I think FF would have to follow.

I don't like seeing consoles as a second wheel, though. It's kind of backwards.

 

[shykyoichi]

We'll see when it comes to Final Fantasy, but these days you can never know. Japan itself is headed towards handhelds, if it goes there completely, I think FF would have to follow.

I don't like seeing consoles as a second wheel, though. It's kind of backwards.

Aren't the one responsible for FF the same one that pushes for "cinematic" and "technologically advanced" RPGs?

 

[Eteric Rice]

Aren't the one responsible for FF the same one that pushes for "cinematic" and "technologically advanced" RPGs?

Yes, but if consoles become less and less wanted, they won't have much of a choice.

Of course consoles and handhelds could merge one day. Play on the go and when you get home, plug it into the television and what not.

 

[shykyoichi]

Yes, but if consoles become less and less wanted, they won't have much of a choice.

Of course consoles and handhelds could merge one day. Play on the go and when you get home, plug it into the television and what not.

Well, consoles never hold water to the install base of handhelds. But they still make FFs for console so I think even if the scenario "the console become less wanted" becomes reality, they would still remain fixated in their current mindset.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

what's the x-scale JJ? Specifically, what's that '5' marker? Weeks? Months?

Unless it's hardware sales which specifically come once a week, the numbers represent days. That way you can see the difference between games which had four days of sales in their first week's numbers versus one or two days. Dragon Quest VIII looks to be the biggest start there, passing 2 million within 2 days. It's located over where 1 would be on the X axis, since it's 1 day from launch.

Aren't the one responsible for FF the same one that pushes for "cinematic" and "technologically advanced" RPGs?

Sure, but it's also the Final Fantasy franchise that in the past 2.5 years has a Top 10 that goes
DS
PSP
DS
DS
DS
PSP
DS
GBA
GBA
DS

Though of course that is being a bit misleading. Pushing it back to 3 years would include FF XII, which did about as well as the top 3 of those combined.

 

[farnham]

No, I mean that in my mind, if Final Fantasy goes to the DS, it's the undisputed replacement for consoles because Final Fantasy is considered (sadly imo) a "cinimatic" game that "pushes boundaries." If it gets that one, it'll be a huuuge message to the world saying, "CONSOLES ARE DEAD IN JAPAN, LONG LIVE HANDHELDS."

Dragon Quest while godly, isn't really considered cinimatic. It's considered a much loved traditional RPG.

It could happen, but won't happen on the DS. Maybe the next handheld.

well i think that FF being cinematic and all is overrated

how much more cinematic was FF VI to DQ IV.. not that much...

its FF VII that pushed boundaries...

and many people lament that change of direction...

 

[BishopLamont]

RpgN wins idiot of the week award! Although you deserve a bronze or something for your efforts.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

FF VII was a big push in that direction, yes... but the time since FF VII accounts for more than half of the series's existence; even more outside of Japan. I think it's fair to say that's how the mainline FFs are seen in a modern sense.

 

[RpgN]

Actually, I've spoken to a few supposed devs (one worked at a major company, but he wouldn't say where), and they say that they want to make better games (and they have a lot of ideas), but the head honchos come and tell them to remove this and that to appeal to the non-gamers.

Most of these devs likely aren't proud of these games.

Yeah, I respect those who have these ideas, but unfortinately they have not much to say in the matter.

But you know, the big hitters are coming next year. Games from Marvelous etc, if they succeed, it will open a new door to developers and maybe some get to say something. But if they flop...I'm hoping for the best. Donny explained it better than I did.

RpgN wins idiot of the week award! Although you deserve a bronze or something for your efforts.

How nice of you to drop by! You have a reward for your excellent post. And you know,it's not like you just like to argue for nothing and have nothing to say to this discussion. Just like the last time, right?

 

[shykyoichi]

Unless it's hardware sales which specifically come once a week, the numbers represent days. That way you can see the difference between games which had four days of sales in their first week's numbers versus one or two days. Dragon Quest VIII looks to be the biggest start there, passing 2 million within 2 days. It's located over where 1 would be on the X axis, since it's 1 day from launch.

Sure, but it's also the Final Fantasy franchise that in the past 2.5 years has a Top 10 that goes
DS
PSP
DS
DS
DS
PSP
DS
GBA
GBA
DS

Though of course that is being a bit misleading. Pushing it back to 3 years would include FF XII, which did about as well as the top 3 of those combined.

I remember FFX has tons of in-game movies as they even needed a movie player to showcase that. I think FFX-2 also has one. Most SE games have "cinematics" lasting more than 15m total time.

And most of FF in handhelds are either spinoff or remake or port.

 

[BishopLamont]

How nice of you to drop by! You have a reward for your excellent post. And you know,it's not like you just like to argue for nothing and have nothing to say to this discussion. Just like the last time, right?

Wait there was a last time? Sorry I forgot to give you an award for that occasion.

 

[RpgN]

Wait there was a last time? Sorry I forgot to give you an award for that occasion.

Seriously, are you just here to talk trash and add nothing to the discussion?

 

[BishopLamont]

Seriously, are you just here to talk trash and add nothing to the discussion?

Yeah pretty much.

 

[Johann]

We'll see when it comes to Final Fantasy, but these days you can never know. Japan itself is headed towards handhelds, if it goes there completely, I think FF would have to follow.

I don't like seeing consoles as a second wheel, though. It's kind of backwards.

It'll probably take a bomb of FF:SW proportions for the Square side of the company to change their philosophy. FFXIII is probably going to one of the worst selling FF games as far as Japan is concerned but I don't think it's going to shell shock them.

They'll probably be paranoid about which console will have the most marketshare next generation rather than jumping the gun and getting into the fine mess they are in now.

 

[donny2112]

They'll probably be paranoid about which console will have the most marketshare next generation rather than jumping the gun and getting into the fine mess they are in now.

You mean they'll finally learn something from the Enix side of the house.

 

[PantherLotus]

You know, I never thought of the Wii as a 3rd place system behind the DS and PSP, but the concept really has me intrigued. I'm going to think about this for a while, but the argument for that ("that's how Japanese pubs see it anyway") doesn't hold water when looking at the big time games being developed for the 360 and PS3.

More likely, the pubs see the Wii as an incredibly segmented audience and are attempting to market towards those specific segments, instead of the rather homogenous demographic purchasing the PS3 and 360. I'm not sure that holds water either, but it makes sense at least on the surface.

 

[shykyoichi]

You mean they'll finally learn something from the Enix side of the house.

Nice. Very subtle.

 

[justchris]

You mean they'll finally learn something from the Enix side of the house.

On the one hand, they really should, the Square side has been kind of wildly flailing around for a while now. On the the other hand, the Enix side only seems to be able to manage one new mainline DQ game per generation.

 

[PantherLotus]

On the one hand, they really should, the Square side has been kind of wildly flailing around for a while now. On the the other hand, the Enix side only seems to be able to manage one new mainline DQ game per generation.

Isn't that a GOOD thing?? Or are you into self-punishment and playing 80-140 hour games only once?

 

[-Kh-]

Isn't that a GOOD thing?? Or are you into self-punishment and playing 80-140 hour games only once?

There is people that doesn't like to replay games until a long time has passed, in my case, I don't replay (single player mode) games until a few years have passed.

But I'm not interested on having Dragon Quest 2010, Dragon Quest 2011, etc, either.

 

[justchris]

Isn't that a GOOD thing?? Or are you into self-punishment and playing 80-140 hour games only once?

Playing a game with a focused storyline like that I prefer to wait a few years before replaying it. It's like reading a book, except it's harder to turn to a specific point in a game and start from there, so my time between replaying a game is generally longer than my time between rereading a book.

 

[PantherLotus]

I think I misspoke. I meant, isn't it hard to play through more than one 80+ hour game per generation? Or, at least more than one in the same series? Between FF and DQ I honestly HOPE they don't start releasing more than two per generation, much less 3 or 4.

 

[justchris]

I think I misspoke. I meant, isn't it hard to play through more than one 80+ hour game per generation? Or, at least more than one in the same series? Between FF and DQ I honestly HOPE they don't start releasing more than two per generation, much less 3 or 4.

I don't know, people managed 2 Disgaea's last generation.

Anyway, it doesn't have to be two every generation, somewhere in the middle would be fine.

 

[-Kh-]

I think I misspoke. I meant, isn't it hard to play through more than one 80+ hour game per generation? Or, at least more than one in the same series? Between FF and DQ I honestly HOPE they don't start releasing more than two per generation, much less 3 or 4.

I pretty much only play RPGs at home.

Want me to tell you what I'm currently playing?

DS: DQIV, Sigma Harmonics, Disgaea.
PS2: Suikoden V, Persona 3 FES, GrimGrimoire
360: Fable 2, Lost Odyssey.

I play one game one day, another game the next. And I have like 12 games more (RPGs) sitting there waiting to be played.

 

[PantherLotus]

I'm beginning to think if you have time to post on neogaf you're not truly hardcore!