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Mexico reconquers California

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Logan Cano said:
Guys, guys, some of you really don't know what you are taking about, and some of you really are pushing it. Let's be civil and try not to talk about things you don't really know about, ok? This is a sensitive issue for some of us.

For instance. Have you ever lived in Mexico?? Understand the values, way of life, as well as understand our numerous problems?? Do you understand how our history has molded our country and culture?? The status of our economy, the interactions of our society?? The limitations that we face??

If not, then why do you make such statements?? It makes you look arrogant and ignorant at the same time to be honest.

No, I've never lived in Mexico. I also wouldn't claim to know the ins and outs of a country I don't reside it. I can only base my stance off of what I've heard and been told, both by the So Cal media and by the pride groups that organize the marches and stuff. Some is probably over exaggerated, I'm sure. But then, some is probably understated.

If Mexico is broken, as evidenced by the influx of people from down there to up here in search of the imagined better life, why not fix Mexico? I don't mean that in "you mexicans get down there and fix your shit", but rather like, "if this place has problems that affect both Mexico and US, let's fix it."

But really... if I am being ignorant, do fill me in.
 
Logan Cano said:
Guys, guys, some of you really don't know what you are taking about, and some of you really are pushing it. Let's be civil and try not to talk about things you don't really know about, ok? This is a sensitive issue for some of us.



For instance. Have you ever lived in Mexico?? Understand the values, way of life, as well as understand our numerous problems?? Do you understand how our history has molded our country and culture?? The status of our economy, the interactions of our society?? The limitations that we face??

If not, then why do you make such statements?? It makes you look arrogant and ignorant at the same time to be honest.

I know enought that all the problems in Mexico are caused by
Mexicans
They need to stay in their own country and fix their own country instead of illegaly sneaking accross the border and trying to drag my country down.
 
Tyrannical said:
I know enought that all the problems in Mexico are caused by
Mexicans
They need to stay in their own country and fix their own country instead of illegaly sneaking accross the border and trying to drag my country down.

Easy to say when you're born into the wealthier country.
 
Ventrue said:
Easy to say when you're born into the wealthier country.

So... Mexico is mad because they have less money than the USA? I don't see how that's relevant. It's surely possible for Mexico to increase earnings as well, is it not?
 
bjork said:
No, I've never lived in Mexico. I also wouldn't claim to know the ins and outs of a country I don't reside it. I can only base my stance off of what I've heard and been told, both by the So Cal media and by the pride groups that organize the marches and stuff. Some is probably over exaggerated, I'm sure. But then, some is probably understated.

If Mexico is broken, as evidenced by the influx of people from down there to up here in search of the imagined better life, why not fix Mexico? I don't mean that in "you mexicans get down there and fix your shit", but rather like, "if this place has problems that affect both Mexico and US, let's fix it."

But really... if I am being ignorant, do fill me in.

First off, Mexico isn't broken. We are not some poor, god forsaken country like some in Africa or the Middle East. I can tell you have some very warped views of what Mexico is, and I believe you'd be very surprised at what you'd find if you came here. So, please, don't use the word "broken", since it doesn't apply.

Now, it's easy to say, "fix this" or"improve that", but the social and economical problems that many times manifest in illegal immigration, which is mainly the one Americans have trouble with, can't simply be fixed, at least not on a short term. It could take 10, 20 years or more, if the issue is ever "fixed".

The main issue here, is that wealth distribution in my country is one of the most uneven in the planet. AFAIK, Mexico one of the top 25 economies of the world, and Carlos Slim is one of the wealthiest men alive, but we also have around 40 million poor people out of 110 million. This is brought by low acquisition power of many of its citizens, corruption, low paying jobs, lack of quality public education and many more issues of this nature.

This affects people in rural areas the most, which make up the bulk of the immigrants. What we pay to our countrymen is ridicule, and are stuck in a world of debt and poverty.
Lack of education worsens their condition, and in many cases their kids don't even go to school since they have to help out their families in the fields. Many of them try their luck in the cities, but given that many of them haven't even completed their basic education, it's tough for them to have a good job. Let's not even talk about health care, since in rural areas it's really difficult to get to a hospital, and can take hours.

This is only a extremely simple part of the problem. Do I have an answer for it?? I don't. There's not a simple fix or solution. Do we simply give them cash?? From where do we get it, and does it do anything other than put a band aid on the wound?? Dropping cash at the problem to build schools, decent towns and the rest isn't feasible, given the magnitude of the problem. Now, add the ever so pleasant corruption that is entrenched in so many of our organizations and ministries to make the problem worse.

Really, how many poor people the US has?? How many million of them have existed in the last 30 years?? I think that's an evidence that there's no simple fix to a problem.
 
Tyrannical said:
I know enought that all the problems in Mexico are caused by
Mexicans
They need to stay in their own country and fix their own country instead of illegaly sneaking accross the border and trying to drag my country down.

I pity you. I truly do if you think that all those guys are trying to bring the "good, ol', US of A" down. Has your country managed to eradicate poverty?? Then why doesn't jolly Uncle Sam do something about it??
 
Pristine_Condition said:
Bullshit.

Bullshit.

Bullshit.

God, you are ignorant of Texas History.

First off, Texans didn't declare their independence until five months after the serious shooting started, and this was in 1836, a whopping fifteen years after slavery was made illegal by Mexico in 1821, and twelve years after the Constitution of 1824. There were many still hoping to stay a part of Mexico until the very end. The Declatation of Independence was only finally ratified while, in San Antonio, The Alamo was under siege. That was the last straw.

At the "highpoint" of slavery in Texas, there were still only around 5,000 slaves, tops. The bulk of these slaves working in a few large sugar, cotton and mining plantations in East Texas. There were relatively few slave owners in the bulk of Texas, and as a result, there was very little in the way of a "culture of slavery" in Texas like there was in the South when the Texas Independence Movement was formed. And this "highpoint" of Texas slavery (the slaves were mostly renamed "indentured servants" at this time, a classification the Mexican government did not challenge for the most part,) was in 1936, well after the independence movement had started, and a year after the shooting war had already started.

So, the conclusion that the repeal of slavery in Mexico caused the Texas Revolution is not only just plain false, it doesn't even match up to the timeline.

If you want to see what started the movement for independence, look to the dictatorship of Santa Anna. Santa Anna took part in several Presidential assassination plots and coup attempts in Mexico before finally coming to power in 1833. Then, after he got back from a long vacation, Santa Anna came back, tore up the liberal Mexican Constitution, declared that Mexico wasn't ready for Democracy, dissolved most of the govenment and courts, appointed himself Dictator, and, seeing Napoleon's invasion of Spain in 1808 as inspiration, started fancying himself as the "Napoleon of Mexico."

In other words, he was batshit insane with power, and he suddenly thought he was a military genius as well.

Santa Anna was no military genius though, as history would show. As he sought to centralize his power, he attempted to militarize the country in the image of his icon, Napoleon. His growing army was brutal to the citizens of Mexico and Texas.

It was the threat of being disarmed by Santa Anna's government that was the final tipping point for Texans. Thus, the battle of Gonzales in 1835.

Slavery is a blight on the otherwise proud history of Texas, no doubt. But it wasn't the cause of the revolution.

I would be remiss here in this post if I didn't mention the heroic contributions to Texas from black men like Samuel McCulloch Jr, one of the first men to be wounded in the Texas Revolution, at Goliad, Hendrick Arnold, the scout who led troops in the Battle of San Antonio, and the great Samuel G. Hardin in the Battle of San Jacinto.




Yeah. A few lied, so let's tarnish them all. Nice big broad brush you've got there, jackass.

Besides, the first slaves were brought into Texas by the Spanish. Mexico declared slavery illegal after they got their independence from Spain and mainly made slavery illegal to further punish whatever remaining Spanish were left in the country after they tried to purge them all. The Anglo Texans who took up the plantations after the Spanish were picking up the scraps of a system already in place, and the Mexican government turned a blind eye to them reclassifying them as indentured servants for well over a decade before the Texas Revolution.

Santa Anna ran for the Presidency of Mexico as a liberal...then as soon as he got back from his long siesta, declared himself Dictator. I don't see you crying about that.

Thankyou for showing just how oblivious some people are. People joke and laugh about Texans being so prideful of our state, but it's the same kind of pride American's feel about the revolutionary war and winning Independence.

Come_And_Take_It_Mural.jpg
 
Logan Cano said:
Really, how many poor people the US has?? How many million of them have existed in the last 30 years?? I think that's an evidence that there's no simple fix to a problem.

Oh, I surely wasn't implying it was something that can be fixed overnight. The problem is definitely complex. But it's something that could be corrected, so that there could be more of a middle class rather than really rich and really poor.

I don't have the answer either, but I know the answer to sorting out Mexico's problem does not lie in marching down Los Angeles streets. Maybe if the people who were so passionate about those empty gestures would actually focus on the land they claim to love so much, some change could be enacted. :shrug:
 
To tell you the truth, I don't think California would be even half of what it is right now if it was under Mexican control and never under American control. The US made California into what it is.
 
Furio53 said:
Thankyou for showing just how oblivious some people are. People joke and laugh about Texans being so prideful of our state, but it's the same kind of pride American's feel about the revolutionary war and winning Independence.

If it makes you feel any better, I feel 0% pride about the revolutionary war.

GSG Flash said:
To tell you the truth, I don't think California would be even half of what it is right now if it was under Mexican control and never under American control. The US made California into what it is.

Perhaps, but the world might also have been better off. No gold rush, no Hollywood, no Los Angeles Dodgers and no goddamn Raiders. :p
 
Holy shit, there are more panties in a bunch than at a rope g-string convention in this thread.

Either way, drink more Svedka, its way cheaper and taste the same. The Sweeds can take over when ever they feel like for all I care.

VPhys said:
Vodka is Vodka.

Barton's and Viaka strongly disagree, just ask them in the morning after hanging out with them all night.
 
Logan Cano said:
I pity you. I truly do if you think that all those guys are trying to bring the "good, ol', US of A" down. Has your country managed to eradicate poverty?? Then why doesn't jolly Uncle Sam do something about it??

Mexicans need to fix Mexico's problems. Maybe if we could prevent Mexicans from coming accross the border they will be a little more inclined to try to fix their problems at home.
 
bjork said:
Oh, I surely wasn't implying it was something that can be fixed overnight. The problem is definitely complex. But it's something that could be corrected, so that there could be more of a middle class rather than really rich and really poor.

Yeah, it could be corrected, but sadly our politicians are more concerned with fighting with each other and within themselves. Hell, the middle class is the one most punished, like 10 million people or so provide the far greater part of all taxes. And politicians are always happy to create even more taxes for us instead of getting the guys that don't pay taxes to do that.

It's a really complex issue and I don't think it's going to be resolved soon. If at all.

I don't have the answer either, but I know the answer to sorting out Mexico's problem does not lie in marching down Los Angeles streets. Maybe if the people who were so passionate about those empty gestures would actually focus on the land they claim to love so much, some change could be enacted. :shrug:

Yeah...sorry about that. People in a lower class here are prone to marches and empty shit like that.
 
Smiles and Cries said:
I'm offended by this!

Oh wait, Haiti is still on the map... carry on

are you haitian?

ME TOO! (well half, anyway)

Other half is actually Mexican, and i say it's high time we get our tierra back.
 
Tyrannical said:
Mexicans need to fix Mexico's problems. Maybe if we could prevent Mexicans from coming accross the border they will be a little more inclined to try to fix their problems at home.

I don't exactly remember Mexico asking the US government to fix our issues...

you really are showing very little maturity and plenty of ignorance about this topic.
 
Tyrannical said:
Mexicans need to fix Mexico's problems. Maybe if we could prevent Mexicans from coming accross the border they will be a little more inclined to try to fix their problems at home.

It's not really as simple as that, though, and would create an economic problem here. Let's say you built a wall that was 100 feet tall, and blocked the US from Mexico entirely. Then tomorrow, you granted amnesty to everyone who was already in the country, and the immediately had their proper documentation and shit by noon.

If I'm a guy that just got citizenship, I'm not picking your fuckass fruit for $3/hr or whatever shitty job I got conned into doing for less than minimum wage before. I'm a citizen now, bitch.

So... then what?

It's something that, due to USA's negligence for all these years, is now our problem as well as Mexico's. If we locked our border down the way Mexico hold their southern border in check, it might be a different situation. But we didn't, so...
 
Logan Cano said:
Yeah...sorry about that. People in a lower class here are prone to marches and empty shit like that.

:lol It's all good. As long as I can get from my house to work and back, that's all I ask.

Logan Cano said:
I don't exactly remember Mexico asking the US government to fix our issues...

But in a way, the illegal immigration is a cry for help. If Mexico had a way to properly support all of its people, less people would want to come up here for the US dollar, right? So it's not directly USA being asked, but USA being kinda pushed into the position to do something... eventually.
 
Logan Cano said:
I don't exactly remember Mexico asking the US government to fix our issues...

you really are showing very little maturity and plenty of ignorance about this topic.

I don't remember inviting Mexicans to just come on over.
 
bjork said:
:lol It's all good. As long as I can get from my house to work and back, that's all I ask.

Yeah, I know about that since that shit happens here all the time, especially in Mexico City.

It sure is annoying.

But in a way, the illegal immigration is a cry for help. If Mexico had a way to properly support all of its people, less people would want to come up here for the US dollar, right? So it's not directly USA being asked, but USA being kinda pushed into the position to do something... eventually.

I just said it that way since Tyrannical sounds really ignorant about this whole issue. I agree, unfortunately this issue is something that Mexico and the US have to get together and figure out some sort of solution. I'm mexican, but I don't agree with illegal immigration since I believe in upholding the law.

If people wanted to move to the US, they should do it the legal way, having learned english and with a bachelor's degree, but the reality is unfortunately much different.
 
bjork said:
:lol It's all good. As long as I can get from my house to work and back, that's all I ask.



But in a way, the illegal immigration is a cry for help. If Mexico had a way to properly support all of its people, less people would want to come up here for the US dollar, right? So it's not directly USA being asked, but USA being kinda pushed into the position to do something... eventually.

Yeah. I mean, illegal immigrants piss me off, but every time I drive by a Home Depot that has a parking lot LITTERED with them, it's depressing. Knowing they prefer this life than living in their own country.

We shouldn't need to keep them out, but simply make them not want to leave.
 
bjork said:
It's not really as simple as that, though, and would create an economic problem here. Let's say you built a wall that was 100 feet tall, and blocked the US from Mexico entirely. Then tomorrow, you granted amnesty to everyone who was already in the country, and the immediately had their proper documentation and shit by noon.

If I'm a guy that just got citizenship, I'm not picking your fuckass fruit for $3/hr or whatever shitty job I got conned into doing for less than minimum wage before. I'm a citizen now, bitch.

So... then what?

It's something that, due to USA's negligence for all these years, is now our problem as well as Mexico's. If we locked our border down the way Mexico hold their southern border in check, it might be a different situation. But we didn't, so...

No, after the wall is when we start deporting Mexicans that are in the country illegaly. Children of Mexican citizens born in the US are mexican citizens and should be treated as such.

I've got no problem with issuing work visas for Mexicans that want to work in the US, but it is the influx of cheap labor that causes a downward pressure on the wages that unskilled laborors earn. They only pay $3/hr because they can find workers for $3/hr, if we prevented the influx of cheap labor, supply and demand would cause the wages for unskilled labors to rise.

Illegal immigrants are responsible in part for the poverty of legal citizens.
 
bjork said:
:lol It's all good. As long as I can get from my house to work and back, that's all I ask.



But in a way, the illegal immigration is a cry for help. If Mexico had a way to properly support all of its people, less people would want to come up here for the US dollar, right? So it's not directly USA being asked, but USA being kinda pushed into the position to do something... eventually.
Yeah USA's history for getting involved with other nations is kinda telling me that its only fair, right? I mean they did bully us for all those states. They are "giving Iraq a democracy," which is a "problem" worth fixing. Why not fix illegal immigration?
 
Tyrannical said:
No, after the wall is when we start deporting Mexicans that are in the country illegaly. Children of Mexican citizens born in the US are mexican citizens and should be treated as such.

I've got no problem with issuing work visas for Mexicans that want to work in the US, but it is the influx of cheap labor that causes a downward pressure on the wages that unskilled laborors earn. They only pay $3/hr because they can find workers for $3/hr, if we prevented the influx of cheap labor, supply and demand would cause the wages for unskilled labors to rise.

Illegal immigrants are responsible in part for the poverty of legal citizens.
And at the same time, a large part of the prosperity, too. Mixed blessing, if you will.
 
Logan Cano said:
If people wanted to move to the US, they should do it the legal way, having learned english and with a bachelor's degree, but the reality is unfortunately much different.

I remember hearing about how some of the recordkeeping is really shoddy in Mexico, so some people don't even have a birth certificate on record, and so they don't have access to paperwork they need to do things legally. And sometimes it can take many months to actually get the right paperwork if you go through proper channels? I'm sure it's tough for people in that situation, even if they know english and whatever else.
 
M3wThr33 said:
Yeah. I mean, illegal immigrants piss me off, but every time I drive by a Home Depot that has a parking lot LITTERED with them, it's depressing.

Seeing people who want to work really bums me out too.
 
M3wThr33 said:
And at the same time, a large part of the prosperity, too. Mixed blessing, if you will.

Maybe some of that prosperity will move back down to Mexico?
I want Mexico to be a nice prosperous country as much as the Mexicans do, but it is not up to me to make that happen. It is up to them.
 
Tyrannical said:
No, after the wall is when we start deporting Mexicans that are in the country illegaly. Children of Mexican citizens born in the US are mexican citizens and should be treated as such.

I've got no problem with issuing work visas for Mexicans that want to work in the US, but it is the influx of cheap labor that causes a downward pressure on the wages that unskilled laborors earn. They only pay $3/hr because they can find workers for $3/hr, if we prevented the influx of cheap labor, supply and demand would cause the wages for unskilled labors to rise.

Illegal immigrants are responsible in part for the poverty of legal citizens.

You do know that we have an anchor baby law, right?

Also, if your wages rise, so does your cost, and so does your price. You do know that, right?
 
The Mexican government loves illegal immigration. They get to export their poor and import the money that the illegals send back to their families. It's a complete win/win for them.

That why I don't blame the Mexican government or the illegals that come over to ry to make money.

I blame the US government since they don't even try to lock down the border. It's pathetic. These numbnuts are always talking about what to do with the 20 million illegals we have, yet nothing never seems to get done. Hello!?, how about you stop the damn flood of people coming in and then talk about what to do with the ones that are already here
 
bjork said:
You do know that we have an anchor baby law, right?

Also, if your wages rise, so does your cost, and so does your price. You do know that, right?

Anchor laws should never have applied to children of illegal aliens as under UN treaty they are Mexican citizens also.

We already subsidize low wage earners with wellfare. We wouldn't have to if it wasn't for cheap labor (often illegal) pushing wages artificialy lower. Carpenters used to be able to make a decent living, and rightly so. Not anymore.

Of course then the upper middle class in California wouldn't be able to hire cheap mexican servants anymore to garden and clean their houses.

Slavery was outlawed for good reason. We have the illegal immigration problem we have now because some people think it's OK to replace slave wages with immigrant wages. They can't have slaves, so the next best thing to them is cheap Mexicans. It's absolutely disgusting that this is one of the reasons some people are opposed to closing the borders.
 
Furio53 said:
Thankyou for showing just how oblivious some people are. People joke and laugh about Texans being so prideful of our state, but it's the same kind of pride American's feel about the revolutionary war and winning Independence.

Hey..."It's like a whole other country!"

:lol


Seriously though, if you want to understand the pressure that the Texans (and all of Mexico that disagreed with Santa Anna and wanted to keep the Constitution that he destroyed in his power grab for Dictatorship for that matter,) were under, one should keep in mind that Texas was not the only Mexican state to rebel against Santa Anna's regime. The Mexican states of Zacatecas and Coahuila also rebelled, but those rebels were brutally stomped under the crushing boot of Santa Anna's army.

Reading the historic accounts of these events is pretty horrific. In the aftermath of the battle for Zacatecas Santa Anna ordered the summary execution of all Anglos and others merely suspected of sympathizing with the the rebellion, then he destroyed the entire city as an example. This act was reminiscent of Santa Anna's early years as a cadet in the Spanish Army (Santa Anna, ever the opportunist, would later switch sides) under General Arredondo where he served at the Battle of Medina in which Arredondo ordered the execution of all suspected rebels, and then locked up all the women of San Antonio, forcing them to service his army, and raping, plundering, and pillaging the city. It's pretty widely believed by historians that this even impacted Santa Anna deeply, and inspired his philosophy of "total war" in brutally crushing rebellion.

Furio53 said:

"Come and Take It" is so awesome.

For those who are curious, that's the Texas equivalent of what the slogan "Don't Tread on Me" was for the American Revolution. It was adopted during the Battle of Gonzales, which I mentioned before in my previous post, as an answer to the Mexican Army when they came in to disarm the Texans there. Of course after the Battle of The Alamo, "Remember the Alamo" became the main battle slogan until the end of the War.
 
Tyrannical said:
Come_And_Take_It_Mural.jpg


It looks like a severed black penis on the flag. I'm guessing it's supposed to be a cannon.

:lol

Yeah, it's a cannon.

But I have to admit, the idea of a flag with a huge black penis/dildo and the slogan "Come and Take It" is pretty funny...

...

The original flag is supposedly in a collection at Duke University. Don't know how it got there.


...

Here's a modern version you'll see from time to time, especially around army bases in Texas:

2rz2q85.gif
 
Tyrannical said:
Children of Mexican citizens born in the US are mexican citizens and should be treated as such.

Assumptions:
You think illegal immigration is bad / should be punished
A child born here has dual citizenship ("anchor baby")
Parents are not citizens (or this wouldn't be an issue)
Can't deport citizens

Solution: Deport parents. If they don't want to be separated from their kids, I guess they'll be taking them, huh?

Better (but more far-fetched) solution: end minimum wage and the welfare state. Open borders. Profit.

* * *

Oh, and for anyone lacking knowledge of basic history, Santa Anna's a key figure in both the Texas Revolution and the Mexican-American War, and he's hardly what one would call sympathetic. When you lose a revolution, you lose the territory that revolted; furthermore, the Texans were justified in revolting against the rule of a tyrant.

As for the Mexican-American War, Mexico sent their troops across the Rio Grande and initiated the conflict. Say what you will, but that is certainly casus belli for a war; our troops eventually took Mexico City itself. Yeah, America gained territory from the conquest of Mexico, but that's what happens when you initiate a war and lose it utterly. Sorry, ours now, kthx, buh-bye.
 
icarus-daedelus said:
Well, see, there's this 14th amendment thingy...

Slaves don't get wages. That's, uh, why they're called slaves.

14th amendment
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

They fail the subject to jurisdiction clause as they are Mexican citizens. Illegal immigrants in the US do NOT reside in the US as reside implies legal right to occupy.
 
JayDubya said:
Assumptions:
You think illegal immigration is bad / should be punished
A child born here has dual citizenship ("anchor baby")
Parents are not citizens (or this wouldn't be an issue)
Can't deport citizens

Solution: Deport parents. If they don't want to be separated from their kids, I guess they'll be taking them, huh?

I think illegal immigration is illegal. I think it should remain illegal.
A child born here should have the same citizenship as their parents. If their parents are not US citizens, they should also not be.

Actualy, I beleive you can deport citizens, but only to another country where they still also hold citizenship. I'm not sure though and it really doesn't matter, as I oppose all forms of dual citizenship.
 
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