Steiner_Zi
Member
No, I'd say he's like Uwe Boll.:lolEccocid said:
this is the stupidiest thing I've ever read
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MGS4 ending whining thread (major spoilers)
- Thread starter James Power
- Start date
Lifeonmars?
Member
I can understand people not liking MGS4's ending, or the entire story at that, but I don't understand this "Kojima is the shittiest shit that ever shit" attitude.
Meh. I thought it was Kojima's way of getting all the lore out in the open. Big Boss wouldn't have fit anywhere else in the story. I think it just tied up some loose ends. Then again, I'm not that informed on MGS history, and have skipped every cinematic on the second and third runs. PEACE.
I'm also gonna say that I liked the way they handled the whole Liquid Ocelot situation. In MGS2 the revealation that Liquid existed through the arm Ocelot grafted onto himself was strange. But I don't understand the major backlash. This is a world with cyborg ninja, fully functional clones as the protagonist and antagonist, genome soldiers, Metal Gear (any of them), nanomachines that can be used to communicate with, control or simply kill their host... and motherfucking Psycho Mantis.
The situation was explained fairly well, I thought.
The situation was explained fairly well, I thought.
Oldschoolgamer
The physical form of blasphemy
Blame! said:
That is a good question. Also, somebody said it in one of the threads, but, if vamp just ran off of a bunch of nanomachines why are the cyborg ninjas going through so much?
naomi getting all sexed up for vamp was just totally jarring for me.....sure you could explain it however you want i guess....she's a slut, she's fucking her own creation, she feels a bond with vamp because they're both kept alive by nanomachines....but it still fucked with my suspension of disbelief and came way way out of left field.
WHY INCLUDE THAT SCENE?
ahhhh welll, nanomachines are a writer's best friend.
WHY INCLUDE THAT SCENE?
ahhhh welll, nanomachines are a writer's best friend.
This. He said everthing in one sentence with the zero become 100 line or whatever. But then he just kept going and going. And it was 4am when I first beat it, and I wanted to skip it, but I knew I would never sit through it again. Too long. The epilogue felt longer than all the other ones. PEACE.SailorDaravon said:
timetokill
Banned
Farnack said:
Yeah, instead you shit on the fans by making Meryl fall in love with Johnny Sasaki and doing that painfully stupid love gunfight and marriage.
..
And yes, Snake should have killed himself.
If you're going to spend all this time giving him some mutant form of FoxDie and making all this tension about how he's becoming a biological weapon in his own right, you don't go "NO WAIT ITS COOL GUYZ!" right at the end, especially after Snake FIRES THE GUN. What happened, did he just shoot into the sky? Why did he fire the gun at all? Did he somehow dodge the bullet when the gun was IN HIS MOUTH?
you're right.Miburou said:
kojima should have had minigame in the end where you play as foxdie timebomb snake coming into contact with as many people as you can so everyone can die
snake could have his alaskan huskies ride him around in a sled while you go on a tour of death in random cities or something
I'd play it
firehawk12
Subete no aware
What? So instead he dies off screen in 6 months doing what? Stalking people to see if they can live without nanomachines? Really?
timetokill said:
Yeah what the fuck was that all about?
He goes through all the trouble of putting the gun on his mouth, the camera starts going up, and we hear a gun fire.
What, did he like take the gun out of his mouth and then fired it to nowhere? Did he knew i was watching so he pulled a prank on me?
wat
As soon as it was implied in one of the trailers that Snake shoots himself, it should have been clear that he doesn't do it in the final game.
This is Kojima we're talking about.
The Ending fits perfectly. Kojima surprisingly wanted the Solid-Saga to become full circle, and in order to do that, Snake had to meet Big Boss once more.
Even with all the revelations and unexpected answers (and cameos), the storytelling in MGS4 is quite tame in comparison to MGS2.
This is Kojima we're talking about.
The Ending fits perfectly. Kojima surprisingly wanted the Solid-Saga to become full circle, and in order to do that, Snake had to meet Big Boss once more.
Even with all the revelations and unexpected answers (and cameos), the storytelling in MGS4 is quite tame in comparison to MGS2.
timetokill
Banned
Mamesj said:
:lol
Come to think of it, that would make for an even more powerful ending. Snake can't kill himself because the nanomachines keep turning the bullets into pudding. He's all out of syringe injections and the only people who know how to deal with the nanomachines are dead (like Naomi) or refuse to help (like Sunny).
Resorting to any method he can think of, we get a scene where a line of soldiers, at the behest of the US Military and led by Col. Campbell, are ordered to fire at Snake in order to try and kill him. As his body is riddled with bullets, fountains of chocolate pudding come pouring out into huge puddles. Dramatic music plays while Snake sinks into the pudding.
Big Boss shows up with Ocelot. Snake is incredulous that they're both alive, to which Big Boss and Ocelot both say in unison "the nanomachines!" just as they high-five each other. In the ensuing 30 minute cutscene, they reveal they were secretly working together for the TRUE goal of The Boss -- an unlimited supply of chocolate pudding. As it turns out she was a huge fan of chocolate pudding.
How exactly is a new MGS game supposed to start with a clean slate? Wouldn't that then just be a rehash? I'd rather have Kojima make a new game that has as much inventiveness in gameplay and awesomeness in cut-scene direction as MGS had, but say set in feudal Japan or in the future, etc.
Andronicus
Banned
it doesnt take a set amount of time to kill the people its made to infect. different from person to person. not that hard was it?Dot50Cal said:
Prince of Space
Banned
"Snake should have killed himself" is quickly becoming the gaming forum's "AI should have ended at Coney Island".
I don't think he fired the gun, the bullet is still inside when BB takes it away, and the sound dose not match the gun. I think BB shot towards him, or the gun just jammed like the AK47 did at the start of the game. And as for the next game, didn't Ryan hint that it might go back to the time of BB when he was a part of the patriotsWrikaWrek said:
MiamiWesker
Member
Vish said:
Exactly, on the second playthrough it was very clear she was just playing Vamp.
Mr. Spinnington
Banned
i'm in here looking for friends
Prince of Space
Banned
Except you clearly see the gun in Snake's hand is now empty. He fired it.Guled said:
Steiner_Zi said:
I'm still developing my ideas about the ending. There's a reason I feel the way I do, and without being able to easily go back and reference the 'text', it's tough for me to sum it up based on my reactions to it when I finished the game at 1 AM. So if some of my points are inaccurate, feel free to correct me, because that's the only way I'll get a better sense of what I think.
I guess it's the way the thread of the game was going. Snake is slowly deteriorating. The physical toll of the mission is exacting a greater and greater price. At the end of the game, he's barely able to stand. He's struggled through so much, he's crawling towards the door at the end of the microwave hallway, all he has to do is finish this mission he's on, and he'll be spent. It's taking every last ounce of strength he has, and he'll have nothing left when it's over. But it's what he has to do.
He accomplishes his goal, he slugs it out with Liquid, he emerges on top, and he recovers enough to do one last thing, to purge his cursed bloodline from existence, to get rid of the last of a generation of men born and bred to be soldiers, in order to make way for peace. This is what he's fought for, but he'll never be able to have it, because, as much as he might deny it, that's never who he has been. Every time he tries to leave the battlefield, he always comes back for another day, to protect what needs to be protected. But his age is over, and there is only one more way that he can help everyone. He sticks that gun in his mouth, and pulls the trigger. "Snake lived a hard life," Otacon says, and it's true. But he's finished the fight, and he's found peace. Instead of dying on that battlefield like so many others, he dies on his terms.
Then what? The cutscenes continue. Snake isn't dead. He didn't shoot himself. Wait, there's Big Boss and a guy in a wheelchair! You're not going to die, Snake! You're going to live, because your new FOXDIE cancelled out your old FOXDIE through processes unexplainable! You're such a cool guy! You get an extra year to see the beginning of this new era because of what you fought for. You haven't spent it all yet. And then, 15 minutes after his heart attack starts inhibiting his movement, Big Boss dies (FOXDIE usually acts much more quickly), and that's the end. Snake goes on, even though the whole game points towards him sacrificing everything. And even though he didn't fire that fatal shot, it doesn't feel like he is the one who makes the decision to continue. Someone else makes it for him.
This isn't like MGS2 (whose ending I eventually came to accept, despite the rambling AI on Federal Hall), a game also about control, but more importantly, about manipulation, where a large part of the game's point came through Raiden (and the player by extension) being manipulated to the ends of these power players, even as the landscape around them drastically shifted. MGS4 throws a curveball well after everything seems over, and it just doesn't seem justified. Everything that had to be closed was closed. The Patriots' mechanisms for control were gone, Zero, while maybe not dead, was clearly beyond action, every other Patriot was out of the picture, the villains were dead and buried, Sunny (who represented mankind's hope for the future) had gone outside and was going to start a new life, the world was going to live in harmony (as foreshadowed by her friendship with the native guy), and that was it. Except it wasn't, because they had to justify every single other person who we thought was evil, and tie the saga up with a nice little bow.
The catharsis created by a final meeting between Big Boss and Snake was nice to have, and if you really wanted the summation of Snake's place in history, that was good (though a eulogy after he died could have accomplished the same effect sans random revivals). But I don't feel like much was really gained by changing all the rules at the last second, and by going through such pains, in terms of plot and plausibility, to make it possible.
Augemitbutter
Member
ending was perfect.
i never expected snake to kill himself after the second major trailer was shown. it was the typical kojima-tease, perfectly calculated. im guessing most of the people who feel betrayed are newcomers.
and yes, big boss had to show up after snake eater and portable ops. it makes perfect sense to expand on his life story, as his MSX-endings dont do his character any justice anymore.
also, dont give up on snake just yet. theres always room for other amusing oddities. its an entertaining videogame after all and one of the best if you ask me.
i never expected snake to kill himself after the second major trailer was shown. it was the typical kojima-tease, perfectly calculated. im guessing most of the people who feel betrayed are newcomers.
and yes, big boss had to show up after snake eater and portable ops. it makes perfect sense to expand on his life story, as his MSX-endings dont do his character any justice anymore.
also, dont give up on snake just yet. theres always room for other amusing oddities. its an entertaining videogame after all and one of the best if you ask me.
I was so horribly disappointed with mgs4.
I expressed a lot of concerns after finishing act 3 that many seemed to agree with, but just didn't have the heart to go back and talk about my overall impressions after completing the game.
There are just so many things wrong with this game that honestly, I didn't care by the ending. I was just glad to be done.
The real problem with the series is that it was never planned out. It's obvious this was a story that was made up as it went along, and because of that, trying to tie up all the loose ends in any reasonable fashion was impossible. There was no road map, no plan. Just a crazy collection of nonsense that bewildered as much as it impressed.
You can't run a story this complex and long without a road map. I really wish that more storytellers would learn that.
Of course, the real pin in the cushion was MGS2. The utterly non-sensical follow-up that threw the entire series off a cliff. Trying to pick-up from the pieces that game left the story in was obviously too much for anyone to handle. Busting out the eraser to try and undo some of the missteps was both awkward and too late.
The strongest point in the entire series plot-wise was MGS3 by a mile. And I don't think that was a coincidence. Freed from the confines of needing direct continuation of the previous story's absurdities, MGS3 was capable of weaving a decent yarn. But by the time he had to go back and face the mess that he'd created by moving the series forward, it just fell off a cliff.
Obviously many people disagree, and many are still on board for more. For those, I'm sure there will undoubtedly be prequels and sequels and spin-offs for decades to come to appease their desires.
But for me, this is it. The last thread holding this sweater to my back has unraveled. My enchantment is broken.
There's certainly never been anything quite like MGS to touch the world of video games, and there most likely never will be. For that, I have great respect.
However, to try and elevate this story - at this point - to anything but a long, convoluted mess seems odd to me. For every golden moment or stroke of genius, there's ten equally ham-handed and utterly ludicrous counterparts to drop it back down.
As I've said before, and I'll say again, the thing this game needed more than anything was an editor. The cult of Kojima obviously extended even within the organization itself, and that's really too bad. If someone could just help guide the man's ideas, eliminating the scrap while refining the core strengths, I feel it really could be something special.
As is, the one-two punch of MGS2 and 4 was kind of like watching the Matrix sequels. It's almost enough to make you forget that the first one was so great to begin with.
I was so horribly disappointed with MGS4.
Oh well.
I expressed a lot of concerns after finishing act 3 that many seemed to agree with, but just didn't have the heart to go back and talk about my overall impressions after completing the game.
There are just so many things wrong with this game that honestly, I didn't care by the ending. I was just glad to be done.
The real problem with the series is that it was never planned out. It's obvious this was a story that was made up as it went along, and because of that, trying to tie up all the loose ends in any reasonable fashion was impossible. There was no road map, no plan. Just a crazy collection of nonsense that bewildered as much as it impressed.
You can't run a story this complex and long without a road map. I really wish that more storytellers would learn that.
Of course, the real pin in the cushion was MGS2. The utterly non-sensical follow-up that threw the entire series off a cliff. Trying to pick-up from the pieces that game left the story in was obviously too much for anyone to handle. Busting out the eraser to try and undo some of the missteps was both awkward and too late.
The strongest point in the entire series plot-wise was MGS3 by a mile. And I don't think that was a coincidence. Freed from the confines of needing direct continuation of the previous story's absurdities, MGS3 was capable of weaving a decent yarn. But by the time he had to go back and face the mess that he'd created by moving the series forward, it just fell off a cliff.
Obviously many people disagree, and many are still on board for more. For those, I'm sure there will undoubtedly be prequels and sequels and spin-offs for decades to come to appease their desires.
But for me, this is it. The last thread holding this sweater to my back has unraveled. My enchantment is broken.
There's certainly never been anything quite like MGS to touch the world of video games, and there most likely never will be. For that, I have great respect.
However, to try and elevate this story - at this point - to anything but a long, convoluted mess seems odd to me. For every golden moment or stroke of genius, there's ten equally ham-handed and utterly ludicrous counterparts to drop it back down.
As I've said before, and I'll say again, the thing this game needed more than anything was an editor. The cult of Kojima obviously extended even within the organization itself, and that's really too bad. If someone could just help guide the man's ideas, eliminating the scrap while refining the core strengths, I feel it really could be something special.
As is, the one-two punch of MGS2 and 4 was kind of like watching the Matrix sequels. It's almost enough to make you forget that the first one was so great to begin with.
I was so horribly disappointed with MGS4.
Oh well.
Ploid 3.0
Member
Cyborg snake to the rescue.
Yeah I enjoyed the ending apart from Meryl and Johnny Smith (although the nanomachines wasn't suppressing her desires for a man anymore and I guess she was closer to Johnny and respected him for going through all he did with no nanomachines). The wedding wasn't too bad, meryl was a soldier so the guns on her arms made her look weird in a dress as she should.
I mean, Snake, Meryl, and Raiden had a happy ending booo.
Yeah I enjoyed the ending apart from Meryl and Johnny Smith (although the nanomachines wasn't suppressing her desires for a man anymore and I guess she was closer to Johnny and respected him for going through all he did with no nanomachines). The wedding wasn't too bad, meryl was a soldier so the guns on her arms made her look weird in a dress as she should.
I mean, Snake, Meryl, and Raiden had a happy ending booo.
beelulzebub
Banned
Helzown said:
This. Not everyone's gonna be happy with the way this game had ended...it has been about ten years since most of us started playing Metal Gear games, after all, and pleasing everyone is clearly going to be out of the question.
If Snake had to kill himself with forcing the player to push the button, I can guarantee you there'd be a much larger cry on these forums and others about how much of an MGS3 copout that was.
I'm in the latter camp of this guy's example. I think Snake offing himself would've been the easy way out when constructing this ending, and considering the trailers that had been released in anticipation of the game, it would've been the most expected. It may not have been perfect (Big Boss having, like, 17 points where I thought he had died but didn't comes to mind), but it was still a brilliant way to end the series considering the convoluted mythos in the MGS universe. Kojima had a tall order to fill here; that there aren't more people bitching about the ending I think is testament that this might've been the right sort of ending to approach.
Sure, some MGS fans have their own strongly worded opinions about how other, "true" fans should be reacting, but there's no right or wrong here. MGS is a complicated, convoluted beast, for better or worse.
Prince of Space said:
Couldn't have said it better.
ItAintEasyBeinCheesy
it's 4th of July in my asshole
Mr. Spinnington said:
A/S/L............. fuck it lets just cyber.
ItAintEasyBeinCheesy
it's 4th of July in my asshole
I find it amazing, that no matter how good or great a game is, you will always have a group of people who are dissapointed with it and hate it.
The ending was pretty typical MGS, it had the typical dues ex machina and long mgs speech. And i dont know how i can be dissapointed with that, since i've put up with it in the last 3 games or so.
It was AWESOME.
And i loved the johhny \ meryl pairing, i mean sure it's a rip-off of the scene from at worlds end, but it's so hillarious considering the character involved.:lol loved the flashback during the part where johhny confesses his love for meryl.:lol
The ending was pretty typical MGS, it had the typical dues ex machina and long mgs speech. And i dont know how i can be dissapointed with that, since i've put up with it in the last 3 games or so.
It was AWESOME.
And i loved the johhny \ meryl pairing, i mean sure it's a rip-off of the scene from at worlds end, but it's so hillarious considering the character involved.:lol loved the flashback during the part where johhny confesses his love for meryl.:lol
MightyHedgehog
Member
Stupidity? Really? If you consider the artform to be a legitimate one, you should actually welcome varying reactions and opinion on games and their stories and treat them with respect if not agreement. You don't have to agree, but other ideas shouldn't be labeled as stupid unless they logically are. Otherwise, you might as well be repeating 'you're doing it wrong lolz...troll!' over and over. Now, if we we're talking about a consumer electronics instruction manual or something that isn't supposed to encourage differing viewpoints and instead strives for a clear and singular communication of an idea, you'd have a point. And Hunahan closely matches my opinion on the whole mess, though I fought off my misgivings long enough to wring some enjoyment from the story. Still dislike the hell out of most of it and its execution.