Support NeoGAF

[HRK69]

Told by key players who were inside the courtroom, this 3-part comprehensive docuseries dissects the trial of Michael Jackson and his complex legacy.

 

[Vlodril]

Ghouls

 

[Jinzo Prime]

Netflix is just picking up pennies of the floor of the local Micheal showing. How about y'all make something good, instead?

 

[IntentionalPun]

He had sleepovers in the same bed with kids as an adult.

 

[Baemono]

He had sleepovers in the same bed with kids as an adult.

 

[Grenseal]

This guy has a four part series on MJ if you ever wanted to hear a defense of the man.

 

[Represent.]

Let the man rest, my goodness.

 

[DeafTourette]

First the hatchet job of Finding Neverland and now this

 

[Woggleman]

Cancel mob cant stand losing and the fact that he is still popular has to make them seethe.

 

[DrFigs]

probably shouldn't have been so weird about kids. hopefully this is an objective look at the event

 

[Coconutt]

 

[IntentionalPun]

Who gives a shit? The dude was a fucking weirdo who nobody should have let near their kids. The whole "well he had a rough childhood" thing is people gaslighting themselves. No adult man should be sleeping in a bed with other people's kids lol

And who is to say Michael didn't treat the super famous kids differently? Why are you trusting this mofo? lol The main was straight up addicted to lying next to kids while he slept at bare minimum, fuck that shit.

 

[Madflavor]

They will never cancel this mother fucker, when are they going to get it? I feel like Leaving Neverland was the final word on this whole thing, and at that point let people decide what they want to believe and let the man rest.

Who gives a shit?

Most people don't give a shit. If you like the music, great. If you think he's a ghoul, also great. You're not going to convince people who think he's innocent, think he's guilty but still love the music, or don't give a shit either way because they love the music, to start giving a shit. He's dead. When you want to cancel someone, it's because you want to end their career. Michael Jackson's career is over, because he's fucking dead. So the only reason to continue to bring up the molestation charges against and again and again, is because you want to destroy his legacy.

It will never happen. It's the "Japanese soldier who kept fighting" meme at this point.

 

[IntentionalPun]

They will never cancel this mother fucker, when are they going to get it? I feel like Leaving Neverland was the final word on this whole thing, and at that point let people decide what they want to believe and let the man rest.



Most people don't give a shit. If you like the music, great. If you think he's a ghoul, also great. You're not going to convince people who think he's innocent, think he's guilty but still love the music, or don't give a shit either way because they love the music, to start giving a shit. He's dead. When you want to cancel someone, it's because you want to end their career. Michael Jackson's career is over, because he's fucking dead. So the only reason to continue to bring up the molestation charges against and again and again, is because you want to destroy his legacy.

It will never happen. It's the "Japanese soldier who kept fighting" meme at this point.

I don't really care about cancelling people. I just find it bizarre and kind of disturbing people defend the guy despite very basic facts that would have these same people screaming "pedo" at the top of their lungs about anyone else. It's a bizarre mass psychosis to me. "Oh he sleeps in beds with little kids? Totally fine, some of the kids say nothing happened." WTF? lol

And people's critical thinking skills/ability to judge someone going right out the window when they see the person as good/kind/whatever is a real problem in society, and it's partly how predators have gotten way with fucked up shit since the dawn of time.

 

[Mr1999]

I watched that 60 Minutes episode on YouTube last week, the Cascio? family appear to have been really close to hin, between all the home videos and pictures it felt way more convincing than some of those other "tell all" specials where everyone all of a sudden remembers trauma. Part of me still thinks MJ was basically a walking ATM and every person around him had their hand in the cookie jar somehow. But at the same time you look at how close those people were to him and you start maybe believing there was something there. The Cascios already seemed pretty well off too, so it's not like they looked like some random poor family Michael had picked out. Honestly though, having Michael Jackson in your life in the 80s and 90s had to feel surreal. One thing no one denies though that there was some amount of money paid, its in the court records, maybe Michael didn't want to deal with it, but I wouldn't personally go that route, and you have claims that even both sides agree with that they would sleep together at some point, but it was all legit. Believe what you want.

 

[Baemono]

I watched that 60 Minutes episode on YouTube last week, the Cascio? family appear to have been really close to hin, between all the home videos and pictures it felt way more convincing than some of those other "tell all" specials where everyone all of a sudden remembers trauma. Part of me still thinks MJ was basically a walking ATM and every person around him had their hand in the cookie jar somehow. But at the same time you look at how close those people were to him and you start maybe believing there was something there. The Cascios already seemed pretty well off too, so it's not like they looked like some random poor family Michael had picked out. Honestly though, having Michael Jackson in your life in the 80s and 90s had to feel surreal. One thing no one denies though that there was some amount of money paid, its in the court records, maybe Michael didn't want to deal with it, but I wouldn't personally go that route, and you have claims that even both sides agree with that they would sleep together at some point, but it was all legit. Believe what you want.

The Cascio situation is a bit special, he was living with them as his second family, and was paying for their life.

Then he died and they sold fake songs to get money out of him. But apparently they still got regular income, up until it stopped at some point by the Estate.

 

[Baemono]

Who gives a shit?

I was just answering your « he let kids sleep on his bed » and there is a direct answer to that. You can waive if though

 

[IntentionalPun]

I was just answering your « he let kids sleep on his bed » and there is a direct answer to that. You can waive if though

Well then explain to me what Culkin said? I'm not watching a video. Sorry this is a forum, I like talking to people lol

Michael himself talked about sharing his bed with children, so I'm not sure what response Culkin gave could explain that away.

 

[Baemono]

Well then explain to me what Culkin said? I'm not watching a video. Sorry this is a forum, I like talking to people lol

Michael himself talked about sharing his bed with children, so I'm not sure what response Culkin gave could explain that away.

Well then watch the video

 

[IntentionalPun]

Well then watch the video

Ok so the video starts with Culkin claiming his bedroom is 2 stories tall, then ends with Michael saying it's Ok to specifically share his bed with kids? lol

I don't get it sir.

 

[kpopSuperstar]

Imagine seeing your grown ass neighbour sitting in his yard, playing with dolls with four 8 year-olds that ain't his kids. And the kids sleepover at his house. That's Michael Jackson.

 

[Mr Reasonable]

Ok so the video starts with Culkin claiming his bedroom is 2 stories tall, then ends with Michael saying it's Ok to specifically share his bed with kids? lol

I don't get it sir.

Essentially, believe McCauley Culkin a famous celebrity child when he says it was fine to share a bed with a full grown man.

But don't believe the kids that Jackson paid off when they took him to court for sexual abuse.

Also, Michael was very busy doing a lot of dancing and singing when he was a kid, so it makes perfect sense that he would spend his adulthood attempting to do childhood things like have sleepovers with children in a room equipped with an alarm system outside the door. It's entirely understandable and pretty much exactly the same behaviour as the many adults that worked in music or TV or film as children who also didn't get a classic childhood.*


*Oh wait, no, it isn't the same at all.

 

[IDKFA]

Ok so the video starts with Culkin claiming his bedroom is 2 stories tall, then ends with Michael saying it's Ok to specifically share his bed with kids? lol

I don't get it sir.

Basically they had a sleep over. Corey Feldman did the same thing and has said Jackson never touched him inappropriately.

Was it bizarre behaviour from Jackson? Sure. However, I think this is because mentally, Jackson was still a child. He never had a normal childhood and just wanted to experience being a kid.

I don't think he was a sexual predator, but was clealry not okay in the head.

 

[Baemono]

Ok so the video starts with Culkin claiming his bedroom is 2 stories tall, then ends with Michael saying it's Ok to specifically share his bed with kids? lol

I don't get it sir.

Thank you for making the effort.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Basically they had a sleep over. Corey Feldman did the same thing and has said Jackson never touched him inappropriately.

Was it bizarre behaviour from Jackson? Sure. However, I think this is because mentally, Jackson was still a child. He never had a normal childhood and just wanted to experience being a kid.

I don't think he was a sexual predator, but was clealry not okay in the head.

But he didn't just have sleepovers with arguably 2 of the most famous children in the world. It's entirely possible that he would have been smart enough to not touch them but did to other kids:

And regardless that's sort of beside the point for me. This dude actively sought out children to sleep in his bed. And people like you, no offense, say these delusional defenses like "he had a rough childhood so he was like a child."

He was not a child, he was a grown man. He had sex with women, he fathered children, etc. I dunno what else to say but ask people to listen to themselves really closely when they repeat this excuse. The world is full of people with rough childhoods and we don't go around saying it's ok but merely "bizarre" that they spend their adult life seeking out sleepovers with children.

If you knew an old man who talked in a falsetto and asked people to have their kids sleep over you don't go "oh he's just an old man, but he's like a child because he had a rough childhood! Totally clears him of suspicion!"

Anyways I've said my peace.

 

[IDKFA]

But he didn't just have sleepovers with arguably 2 of the most famous children in the world. It's entirely possible that he would have been smart enough to not touch them but did to other kids:

And regardless that's sort of beside the point for me. This dude actively sought out children to sleep in his bed. And people like you, no offense, say these delusional defenses like "he had a rough childhood so he was like a child."

He was not a child, he was a grown man. He had sex with women, he fathered children, etc. I dunno what else to say but ask people to listen to themselves really closely when they repeat this excuse. The world is full of people with rough childhoods and we don't go around saying it's ok but merely "bizarre" that they spend their adult life seeking out sleepovers with children.

If you knew an old man who talked in a falsetto and asked people to have their kids sleep over you don't go "oh he's just an old man, but he's like a child because he had a rough childhood! Totally clears him of suspicion!"

Anyways I've said my peace.

I hear you. It is creepy behaviour.

The official explanation offered was that Jackson suffered from severe arrested development. By his own account, his childhood was defined by intense physical and emotional abuse from his father, coupled with a grueling work schedule from the age of five. He never got to experience any sort of normal childhood.

There is also the argument that as an adult, Jackson possessed the emotional maturity of a child rather than an adult. People who knew him confirmed this.As stated, he clealry had serious arrested development. That's obvious from anyone who has seen his interviews as well. It's like looking at a child trapped in a mans body.

In his own words, his desire to surround himself with children, toys, and amusement park rides at Neverland was an attempt to retroactively experience the innocent childhood he was denied, viewing himself as a peer to these children rather than an adult authority figure.

Remember, he had been forced into the spotlight at a very young age. This combined with his arrested development meant his perception of normal social boundaries was entirely warped. He genuinely did not perceive the behavior as inappropriate or realise how it would be interpreted by the outside world. For him, it was just like two buddies having a sleepover.

You, I and a lot of the planet saw this as bizarre and creepy behaviour. Jackson saw it no different to two ten year old boys at a sleep over because he was mentally a child.

It wasn't just famous child actors that came to his defence either. Brett Barnes, an Australian boy who met Jackson when he was five years, and his family defended Jackson. Brett stayed at Neverland multiple times and the family stated absolutely no inappropriate behavior took place.

Practically everyone who knew him have said Jackson was a naive, deeply eccentric adult who treated Neverland as a communal sanctuary rather than a private space for grooming.

I do however totally get why people think he was a predator. If it was any other celebrity, I would be raising my eyebrows and calling BS, but with Jackson it's pretty clear he was just a very troubled man who wanted to have a childhood.

 

[IntentionalPun]

I hear you. It is creepy behaviour.

The official explanation offered was that Jackson suffered from severe arrested development. By his own account, his childhood was defined by intense physical and emotional abuse from his father, coupled with a grueling work schedule from the age of five. He never got to experience any sort of normal childhood.

There is also the argument that as an adult, Jackson possessed the emotional maturity of a child rather than an adult. People who knew him confirmed this.As stated, he clealry had serious arrested development. That's obvious from anyone who has seen his interviews as well. It's like looking at a child trapped in a mans body.

In his own words, his desire to surround himself with children, toys, and amusement park rides at Neverland was an attempt to retroactively experience the innocent childhood he was denied, viewing himself as a peer to these children rather than an adult authority figure.

Remember, he had been forced into the spotlight at a very young age. This combined with his arrested development meant his perception of normal social boundaries was entirely warped. He genuinely did not perceive the behavior as inappropriate or realise how it would be interpreted by the outside world. For him, it was just like two buddies having a sleepover.

You, I and a lot of the planet saw this as bizarre and creepy behaviour. Jackson saw it no different to two ten year old boys at a sleep over because he was mentally a child.

It wasn't just famous child actors that came to his defence either. Brett Barnes, an Australian boy who met Jackson when he was five years, and his family defended Jackson. Brett stayed at Neverland multiple times and the family stated absolutely no inappropriate behavior took place.

Practically everyone who knew him have said Jackson was a naive, deeply eccentric adult who treated Neverland as a communal sanctuary rather than a private space for grooming.

I do however totally get why people think he was a predator. If it was any other celebrity, I would be raising my eyebrows and calling BS, but with Jackson it's pretty clear he was just a very troubled man who wanted to have a childhood.

Ok so say we take this at face value.

Which is to say, you are describing someone mentally retarded. A mental retard who is an adult, who gets boners, who has sex.

If you buy that, then you should know you should not trust this mental retard around children, as they will have the urges of a grown man but the understanding allegedly of a small child.

And a 5 year old boy also wouldn't even necessarily know if that mental retard did anything innapropriate.

And the parents of that 5 year old boy who let their child go sleep in a bed with a grown man retard should have their parental rights seriously questioned.

And anyone thinking any of this is remotely Ok, that this mental retard not only slept in bed with kids, but continued to do so long after they were taken to court, the world fond out, etc., should really question why they are doing any excusing of this behavior.

And the many women he had romantic/sexual relationships with should be really taken to task for fucking someone with the mind of a child right?

Again, that is if you buy this excuse. If you trust this grown man who wrote incredibly adult songs with deep meaning, who got married, who fathered children, actually has the mind of a child.

 

[IDKFA]

Ok so say we take this at face value.

Which is to say, you are describing someone mentally retarded. A mental retard who is an adult, who gets boners, who has sex.

The correct medical term is arrested development. He wasn't a "retard".

And the many women he had romantic/sexual relationships with should be really taken to task for fucking someone with the mind of a child right?

Hold on. Arrested development doesn't mean he lacks the urges of biological male. It's not that simple.

Also, did he really have sex with these women? An old conspiracy is that he actually didn't father any children and his kids were a result of a sperm donor.

Personally I don't buy it, but I can see why people would say that looking at Paris Jackson.

Again, that is if you buy this excuse. If you trust this grown man who wrote incredibly adult songs with deep meaning, who got married, who fathered children, actually has the mind of a child.

Ultimately, there two starkly different narratives. One side views his childlike persona as a highly effective, calculated cover story for a predator. The other side views him as a deeply damaged individual whose severe emotional trauma made him completely unequipped for the adult world, leading to eccentric behaviors that were easily exploited or misinterpreted.

Because Jackson was acquitted in his 2005 criminal trial and passed away in 2009, the debate relies heavily on conflicting testimonies, personal interpretations, and posthumous documentaries, like the current Netflix one.

Unless some new evidence appears, or somebody else steps forward to make a claim, unfortunately we'll never know for sure.

 

[Days like these...]

This guy has a four part series on MJ if you ever wanted to hear a defense of the man.

It's seems most people defend him, or maybe theyre just the loudest because hey he made Billie Jean and cognitive dissonance is a whole bitch

 

[IntentionalPun]

The correct medical term is arrested development. He wasn't a "retard".

I'm mostly just messing around with that word. In a general sense "to retard" and "to arrest" are synonyms.

Hold on. Arrested development doesn't mean he lacks the urges of biological male. It's not that simple.

That's my point. He was not a child, he did not have the mind of a child, he did not have the body of a child, he did not have the hormones of a child. He never should have been in bed with any children, and nobody should have ever just accepted some excuse that he had a rough childhood so he's acting out childhood fantasies.

Also, did he really have sex with these women? An old conspiracy is that he actually didn't father any children and his kids were a result of a sperm donor.

Personally I don't buy it, but I can see why people would say that looking at Paris Jackson.

Talk to Lisa Marie Presley about that, he initiated a sexual relationship with her. He may have been a virgin when they met, but the guy was not impotent. Why do you have trouble believing a grown man didn't have sex?

Ultimately, there two starkly different narratives. One side views his childlike persona as a highly effective, calculated cover story for a predator. The other side views him as a deeply damaged individual whose severe emotional trauma made him completely unequipped for the adult world, leading to eccentric behaviors that were easily exploited or misinterpreted.

These aren't the only 2 sides. The other side is we should always suspect any adult man who refuses to stop sleeping in bed with children is a creep. And suspect is the bare minimum, it is completely 100% unacceptable behavior, not merely eccentric, not "bizarre" it is fucked up. Kids do not need to be taught it's Ok to sleep in bed with grown men as long as they act like a child regardless of whether he touched any of them.

(not to mention the nude art books of boys he had in his home)

 

[Days like these...]

I have a wild theory about Jacko. So he basically turned himself into a androgynous ghoul so he could diddle kids. Imagine wacko as a masculine presenting black man (deep voice, beard, avg to heavy size and weight etc) none of this sleepover shit would have flown and people keep saying he loved children no he loved boys he had sleepovers with boys. I agree with IntentionalPun it's a mixture of cognitive dissonance (I like his music!) and mass psychosis.

 

[rkofan87]

probably shouldn't have been so weird about kids. hopefully this is an objective look at the event

i bet its not

 

[IntentionalPun]

I have a wild theory about Jacko. So he basically turned himself into a androgynous ghoul so he could diddle kids. Imagine wacko as a masculine presenting black man (deep voice, beard, avg to heavy size and weight etc) none of this sleepover shit would have flown and people keep saying he loved children no he loved boys he had sleepovers with boys. I agree with IntentionalPun it's a mixture of cognitive dissonance (I like his music!) and mass psychosis.

Yeah I don't know what to believe. I generally don't "believe" anything unless I have all the facts, just kind of my personality.

Even theories I don't really like to go down that rabbit hole. For me it's just the basic facts we know are enough to have me in awe that people actually go out of their way to defend this behavior.

You are defending the behavior of a man who seemed obsessed with the act of sleeping in bed with little boys. Obsesses is an opinion, not a fact, but what else can you say about someone who did this so often, did it after being sued, etc.? This is behavior that needed to stop, I would be shocked if any child psychologist or actual expert on this topic would ever say otherwise.

 

[rkofan87]

Who gives a shit? The dude was a fucking weirdo who nobody should have let near their kids. The whole "well he had a rough childhood" thing is people gaslighting themselves. No adult man should be sleeping in a bed with other people's kids lol

And who is to say Michael didn't treat the super famous kids differently? Why are you trusting this mofo? lol The main was straight up addicted to lying next to kids while he slept at bare minimum, fuck that shit.

i do a great Simpsons episode got buried because of this shit

 

[rkofan87]

IntentionalPun reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

 

[Days like these...]

Yeah I don't know what to believe. I generally don't "believe" anything unless I have all the facts, just kind of my personality.

Even theories I don't really like to go down that rabbit hole. For me it's just the basic facts we know are enough to have me in awe that people actually go out of their way to defend this behavior.

You are defending the behavior of a man who seemed obsessed with the act of sleeping in bed with little boys. Obsesses is an opinion, not a fact, but what else can you say about someone who did this so often, did it after being sued, etc.?

But would you agree if he hadn't altered his appearance none of this sleepover shit would have flown. Off the wall album was the last time he was "normal". I have that cd somewhere. I had the thriller record not sure what happened to it. I stopped being a fan when all this kid diddling fuckery started.

 

[Idleyes]

Was there enough evidence to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt? No
Was his behavior inappropriate and suspicious even if not criminally proven? Hell fucking yeah.

That's what this whole debate amounts to.

 

[Putonahappyface]

Imagine seeing your grown ass neighbour sitting in his yard, playing with dolls with four 8 year-olds that ain't his kids. And the kids sleepover at his house. That's Michael Jackson.

 

[IntentionalPun]

But would you agree if he hadn't altered his appearance none of this sleepover shit would have flown. Off the wall album was the last time he was "normal". I have that cd somewhere. I had the thriller record not sure what happened to it. I stopped being a fan when all this kid diddling fuckery started.

Yeah it's part of it for sure. His appearance and his voice really. Lots of reports of people being shocked when Michael used his actual man voice. Granted many singers use a baby-voice to try to protect their vocal chords, but Michael seemed to take it a lot farther than most.

He was at best LARP-ing as a child. That's fine in a vacuum but we really don't need little kids to be involved in that lol

 

[Come On Tars]

This is why I don't lean that he molested kids. The biggest thing is Kulken and even more COREY FELDMAN has said nothing happened. Cory is the type of guy to lambast hollywood for grooming and rape, yet says Michael did nothing. Let alone all the accusers turned out to be grifters.

The fact that a grown man can't act childlike and have fun with kids in a childlike manner is a reflection of how sadly dark society has grown. I get the distrust, just lame in a weird way.

 

[IDKFA]

I'm mostly just messing around with that word. In a general sense "to retard" and "to arrest" are synonyms.



That's my point. He was not a child, he did not have the mind of a child, he did not have the body of a child, he did not have the hormones of a child. He never should have been in bed with any children, and nobody should have ever just accepted some excuse that he had a rough childhood so he's acting out childhood fantasies.

Jury believed it. A vast majority of people who knew him, famous and non famous, defended him for this reason.

Talk to Lisa Marie Presley about that, he initiated a sexual relationship with her. He may have been a virgin when they met, but the guy was not impotent.

A virgin when they met. Which would make him 32 from the year they met as adults in 1992. If Micheal Jackson liked the fury taco, I doubt he would still be a virgin at 1992, at his absolute peak. A time where he could bang any woman on Earth.

Why do you have trouble believing a grown man didn't have sex?

Not sure what to say to this. I mean, he could have been turned off by women and only attracted to young boys if we're taking the predator route. Is that what you're getting at? It's plausible.

These aren't the only 2 sides. The other side is we should always suspect any adult man who refuses to stop sleeping in bed with children is a creep. And suspect is the bare minimum,

He was suspected. It went to trial in 2005. I remember somebody at the time - it might have been Jackson himself - comparing his acquittal to Nelson Mandela

Crazy comparison, especially what he was in court for.

it is completely 100% unacceptable behavior, not merely eccentric, not "bizarre" it is fucked up. Kids do not need to be taught it's Ok to sleep in bed with grown men as long as they act like a child regardless of whether he touched any of them.

(not to mention the nude art books of boys he had in his home)

I'm not convinced he did anything sexual. I'd need to see some new substantial evidence.

 

[Days like these...]

This is why I don't lean that he molested kids. The biggest thing is Kulken and even more COREY FELDMAN has said nothing happened. Cory is the type of guy to lambast hollywood for grooming and rape, yet says Michael did nothing. Let alone all the accusers turned out to be grifters.

The fact that a grown man can't act childlike and have fun with kids in a childlike manner is a reflection of how sadly dark society has grown. I get the distrust, just lame in a weird way.

That's exactly why he didn't diddle those two. So people like you would say "See he didn't diddle them that means he didn't diddle anyone". That is an anecdotal fallacy.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Jury believed it. A vast majority of people who knew him, famous and non famous, defended him for this reason.

The music industry and Hollywood are full of people who excuse or participate in disgusting behavior. I don't think this is a great group of people to get opinions from. Loads and loads of abusers over the history of time in general have had endless defenders. R. Kelly had a team of people working with him and many famous defenders after he was sent to prison for instance, means absolutely nothing really.

A virgin when they met. Which would make him 32 from the year they met as adults in 1992. If Micheal Jackson liked the fury taco, I doubt he would still be a virgin at 1992, at his absolute peak. A time where he could bang any woman on Earth.

Not sure what to say to this. I mean, he could have been turned off by women and only attracted to young boys if we're taking the predator route. Is that what you're getting at? It's plausible.

My point is there's evidence he was a sexually active adult. We don't even know if he was a virgin, we certainly don't know WTF he jerked off to as an adult, but in general I've never heard of anyone working from the assumption some adult dude is actually not horny at all, and needing evidence to prove that he isn't, but in the mean time, A-OK if he sleeps in bed with kids.

He was suspected. It went to trial in 2005. I remember somebody at the time - it might have been Jackson himself - comparing his acquittal to Nelson Mandela

Crazy comparison, especially what he was in court for.

I'm not convinced he did anything sexual. I'd need to see some new substantial evidence.

I'm not convinced either. I'm convinced it's absolutely bizarre behavior to need more evidence before you without a doubt condone his behavior as unacceptable, and that every single person involved was enabling unnaceptable behavior. We should not need to litigate whether a grown man actually had the mind of a child before we say "THATS ENOUGH." to him sleeping in bed with little boys, It's wild behavior to think like that.