Support NeoGAF

[aaaaa0]

It's just a BT device so I don't see why not. Right?

I guess one issue is how many Dials can the hardware track at once on the Studio's screen.

Does the Dial know where it is on the screen, and it transmits that information over BT?

Or does the screen know where the Dial is? (via capacitive sensing, or is it treated like a second pen) If so how many active devices can the screen handle at once?

Also, how many can the API even handle? I'm looking through the API documentation here, and I don't see how to have more than one instance of a RadialController, nor how to tell apart different Dials from each other.

 

[dude]

N-Trig pens have always lagged behind Wacom in both Initial Activation Force and Pressure curve feel. It's now made worse with the new SP4/SB pen's rubbery default tips, which further kills pressure curve finesse.

The good news is, in all likelihood, current Surface devices and this thing all have USI 1.0 compliant touch panel, which would mean that you should be able to buy Wacom made multi frequency USI compliant gen 13 pen for them. It should theoretically also add tilt support as well. Wacom's gen 13 AES pens will have 4K levels of pressure and tilt capable.

If I can use Wacom pens on it, that's all I need. I'm gonna wait for the Studio refresh/2 before seriously considering one anyway, because I'm not one to early-adopt for my professional equipment.

 

[FaceTurn]

Absolutely gorgeous. Makes me want to change my career just so I can use it every day.

 

[Shogmaster]

I guess one issue is how many Dials can the hardware track at once on the Studio's screen.

Does the Dial know where it is on the screen, and it transmits that information over BT?

Or does the screen know where the Dial is? (via capacitive sensing, or is it treated like a second pen) If so how many active devices can the screen handle at once?

Also, how many can the API even handle? I'm looking through the API documentation here, and I don't see how to have more than one instance of a RadialController, nor how to tell apart different Dials from each other.

Ah yeah, the screen position thing could be messy. AFAICT, the position is done by the same way the pen does it, but just at much slower sampling rate. There must be a conductive coil at the center of it that interacts with the static field over the screen.

 

[Nostremitus]

You know you could link to your story or watch the short video and see for yourself.

It was a Twitter conversation.

 

[aaaaa0]

Ah yeah, the screen position thing could be messy. AFAICT, the position is done by the same way the pen does it, but just at much slower sampling rate. There must be a conductive coil at the center of it that interacts with the static field over the screen.

The more I learn about Reactable, the more I think this is actually really cool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9AeUISg-Og

 

[Shogmaster]

The more I learn about Reactable, the more I think this is actually really cool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9AeUISg-Og

The concept is super simple yet very clever.

 

[Futureman]

As far as USI, I think it was on Surface Artists blog or somewhere that pens won't come to market until 2018 at the earliest

 

[Bolivar687]

Gorgeous. It's almost worth it to finance for Civ VI alone.

I would lug it around with my head held high as a proud American.

 

[victreeb3l]

It's an all in one though, you can't just use as a monitor

If I could use this with my current desktop I'd already have my Cintiq up for sale and pre-ordering this.

Theres no ability to use it as just a monitor!? Ah fuck no way

Damnitttttt

 

[watership]

It seems many tech sites were caught off guard by the response of the Surface Studio. So now there is this gluttony of articles and video about the Mac Book Pro, but sites keep posting "thoughts about the Surface Studio" because they a) either didn't send anyone to Redmond for the press event, or b) didn't get any hands on time or media from other sites to draw in the clicks.

Also, this:

https://stephanietarling.bandcamp.com/track/pure-imagination-surface-studio-cover

Amazing. Better than the Fiona Apple cover I think.

 

[Rocky Raccoon]

I'm thinking about getting a Book or Studio for my friend.

Which one should I get? Do an artist need a large display to draw on or is 13" fine?

Can the dial work with the Surface Book?

 

[jax]

I'm thinking about getting a Book or Studio for my friend.

Which one should I get? Do an artist need a large display to draw on or is 13" fine?

Can the dial work with the Surface Book?

Can I be your friend too?

I have a Book and I think the studio is a better call

 

[SCULLIBUNDO]

I'm thinking about getting a Book or Studio for my friend.

Which one should I get? Do an artist need a large display to draw on or is 13" fine?

Can the dial work with the Surface Book?

Would he only draw at his desk?

While I would fucking adore a Studio. Most of my drawing happens with my Surface Book while I'm on the couch and my wife is watching Gilmore Girls.

If he's a professional artist as a full-time, Monday-Friday job, get him the studio.

 

[StudioTan]

I'm thinking about getting a Book or Studio for my friend.

Which one should I get? Do an artist need a large display to draw on or is 13" fine?

Can the dial work with the Surface Book?

As Sculli said, it depends on the use case. If he/she's always wanted to be able to draw anywhere then the Book is the way to go. If he/she sits at a desk to work then the Studio will likely be a dream machine. Drawing on a 13" can be cramped for serious work but it's great for sketching while relaxing.

Also, you're an awesome friend.

EDIT: The dial works with the Book but not on the screen, only on the desk.

What advantages does the Studio have over the Book aside from the larger display? Do artist need a large display? Does dial work with Book?

1 - It's a honking big monitor for when you're using it as a regular computer
2 - As an artist, yes, the large display is great for working on. You should be drawing with your arm so bigger movements are more ergonomic than having to only use your wrist working on a small screen
3 - See above.

 

[Rocky Raccoon]

Would he only draw at his desk?

While I would fucking adore a Studio. Most of my drawing happens with my Surface Book while I'm on the couch and my wife is watching Gilmore Girls.

If he's a professional artist as a full-time, Monday-Friday job, get him the studio.

What advantages does the Studio have over the Book aside from the larger display? Do artist need a large display? Does dial work with Book?

 

[SCULLIBUNDO]

What advantages does the Studio have over the Book aside from the larger display? Do artist need a large display? Does dial work with Book?

Dial does work with the Book.

And a bigger display is always appreciated by an artist. But more than that, the one thing the Surface Book definitely lacks over the Studio, is that draftsman's angle to lean and draw on. You have to get kind of creative with the book to not have to draw on it as a flat screen.

Again, the biggest deciding factor will be if he's a professional artist vs a hobbyist.

 

[Shogmaster]

As far as USI, I think it was on Surface Artists blog or somewhere that pens won't come to market until 2018 at the earliest

At that point, I'm gonna gerryrig my own Wacom load sensor N-Trig pens.

But Wacom is doing N-Trig/Wacom multi-frequency pen sooner than that though. It just might not be USI thing, but MS-Wacom thing. There was announcement few months back.

 

[Shogmaster]

Oh jeez... I think my low carb diet has my brain all scrambled...

The Wacom multi-frequency pen coming out soon aren't part of USI effort at all. It's a MS-Wacom joint venture. The original announcement said that they are aiming for the pens to be out by end of 2016, so....

Besides, MS/Ntrig aren't even part of USI anyways.

 

[GeoNeo]

This came out today 980M vs 1070 in the same notebook.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYzZP9KwRzc

Checkout the huge increase in performance yet very very little impact on battery life:

980M Batt Life:

131 mins creative | 95 mins gaming | 204 mins browsing | 177 mins PCMark

1070 Batt Life:

130 mins creative | 92 mins gaming | 200 mins browsing | 172 min PCMark

Once they switch to 1070 for highest end next year this thing is gonna be a beast!

 

[killertofu]

I played with one earlier today. It's exactly what I thought the future would be when I was 9. Haven't felt that way toward a piece of tech in a long time.

 

[K.Jack]

This came out today 980M vs 1070 in the same notebook.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYzZP9KwRzc

Checkout the huge increase in performance yet very very little impact on battery life:

980M Batt Life:

131 mins creative | 95 mins gaming | 204 mins browsing | 177 mins PCMark

1070 Batt Life:

130 mins creative | 92 mins gaming | 200 mins browsing | 172 min PCMark

Once they switch to 1070 for highest end next year this thing is gonna be a beast!

And at the same mobile TDP as the 980M, which is fricking nuts.

Microsoft better have gotten one heck of a deal on these Maxwell chips.

 

[StopMakingSense]

Is there any word on wether the ram is user-upgradable? Can't seem to find any info on that. For my uses the low end version would be absolutely fine, save for the ram.

 

[Shogmaster]

Is there any word on wether the ram is user-upgradable? Can't seem to find any info on that. For my uses the low end version would be absolutely fine, save for the ram.

This picture of the Surface Studio mobo confounded me a bit.

There is a grouping of chips in that rectangular grid that looks like either DRAM or NAND. If's DRAM, it's arranged in strange configuration, and what the hell is that rectangular bracket? And if it's NAND, it's enough to be 1TB by itself, no need for hybrid action.

I guess it's DRAM but I usually see all the DRAM chips arranged equidistant as possible from the CPU or SOC. Also, no sign of SoDIMM slots. It's possible I suppose that SoDIMM slots are on the other side, but I think the chances are very small.

At least the HDD is 2.5" SATA so you can upgrade that potentially easily.

 

[aaaaa0]

There is a grouping of chips in that rectangular grid that looks like either DRAM or NAND. If's DRAM, it's arranged in strange configuration, and what the hell is that rectangular bracket?

Support for the heat spreader?

And if it's NAND, it's enough to be 1TB by itself, no need for hybrid action.

Yeah I don't understand why they didn't go with a 1TB M.2 flash drive.

Maybe for the Surface Studio 2.

The guy at the Microsoft Store said the 1TB version has a 64 GB SSD, and the 2TB version has a 128 GB SSD. They're merged together with some sort of tiered storage system where the SSD is the cache for the HDD. The storage driver I saw in Device Manager was "iastorv.sys".

 

[paskowitz]

I am going to assume the screen is by faaaaaar the biggest item on the BOM.

 

[Shogmaster]

I am going to assume the screen is by faaaaaar the biggest item on the BOM.

At CES 2013 IIRC, before MS bought N-Trig, I tracked down N-Trig CTO at the show and asked him a bunch of questions. One of them was why they haven't tackled Cintiq market with a large pen display.

His answer was that the projected capacitive touch panel with the grid density enough for decent pen use was prohibitively expensive bigger than 16" size (which makes sense since we have seen plenty of Windows AIO with touch screens, but none with pen action). And the touch panel in the SS has even finer digitizer grid than Surface Book!

I think the biggest single part cost in this thing is the touch panel.

 

[Lazaro]

Dial me if old but,

You can download for free the full "Pure Imagination (Surface Studio cover) " song on the artists (Stephanie Tarling) website:
https://stephanietarling.bandcamp.com/releases

Amazingly, you can download it in the original AIFF format as well as MP3/FLAC,ALAC etc.

From the blog post:

"The song was arranged and produced by Nathan Lanier, a composer for film and television best known for his music for Halo 4: Forward Unto Dawn, High Strung and Universal’s Jem and the Holograms. He also composed and produced the track music to Microsoft’s first Super Bowl commercial."

 

[LukasTaves]

I guess one issue is how many Dials can the hardware track at once on the Studio's screen.

Does the Dial know where it is on the screen, and it transmits that information over BT?

Or does the screen know where the Dial is? (via capacitive sensing, or is it treated like a second pen) If so how many active devices can the screen handle at once?

Also, how many can the API even handle? I'm looking through the API documentation here, and I don't see how to have more than one instance of a RadialController, nor how to tell apart different Dials from each other.

The old giant ass surface table had cameras inside the screen that could read QR codes, so basically you could place many objects at it and it recognized each on of them.

They have since replaced it by screens where basically every pixels acts like a infrared camera (basically a kinect). This new tech is called Pixel Sense, which ms has been saying it's the tech on the surface devices screen since SP4 and Surface Book, but they never provided enough info if it's the same in anything but the name (Why Ms keeps using the names they use on their giant tables in their consumer productive line is beyond me, it seems they are deliberately trying to confuse users).

So they are either using that coupled with some marking on the bottom of the dial that the screen can see, or they have add another layer of sensors specific for the dial. Either way, it probably won't have on screen support on anything other than Ms own products for the time being.

 

[brotkasten]

The pre-order page for the Surface Dial has a list of apps that support the Dial out of the gate and it looks like Adobe isn't on-board, which is super disappointing.

https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/Surface-Dial/productID.5074013900

Bluebeam (Revu)
Drawboard (Drawboard PDF)
Mental Canvas (Mental Canvas Player)
Silicon Benders (Sketchable)
Smith Micro (Moho 12)
Spotify (Spotify)
Staffpad (StaffPad)
Windows (All)
Word, PPT, Excel (Office Win32)
OneNote (UWP version)
Windows Maps
Plumbago
Sketchpad
Groove Music
PewPew Shooter
Microsoft Photos
Paint

It's not even limited to UWP apps, as Office and Spotify are listed, too.

Specific features and wireless specs are listed as well.

Wireless

Bluetooth Low Energy
Frequency: 2.40 GHz
Range: 2 meters
Capacitive-touchscreen detectable (Studio only)
Power

Features

Press and hold: For menu
Rotate: Freely/continuously (both directions); 0.30 N-cm resistance torque
Click: Activates a momentary switch with 300g force; Rotate detection functional in up and down button positions
Dynamic feedback: Provides tactile feedback in software adjustable increments
On-screen detection: Touch digitizer reports the onscreen location through a capacitive pattern (Studio only)

https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/Surface-Dial/productID.5074013900

 

[Shogmaster]

The pre-order page for the Surface Dial has a list of apps that support the Dial out of the gate and it looks like Adobe isn't on-board, which is super disappointing.

https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/Surface-Dial/productID.5074013900

Bluebeam (Revu)
Drawboard (Drawboard PDF)
Mental Canvas (Mental Canvas Player)
Silicon Benders (Sketchable)
Smith Micro (Moho 12)
Spotify (Spotify)
Staffpad (StaffPad)
Windows (All)
Word, PPT, Excel (Office Win32)
OneNote (UWP version)
Windows Maps
Plumbago
Sketchpad
Groove Music
PewPew Shooter
Microsoft Photos
Paint

It's not even limited to UWP apps, as Office and Spotify are listed, too.

Specific features and wireless specs are listed as well.

Wireless

Bluetooth Low Energy
Frequency: 2.40 GHz
Range: 2 meters
Capacitive-touchscreen detectable (Studio only)
Power

Features

Press and hold: For menu
Rotate: Freely/continuously (both directions); 0.30 N-cm resistance torque
Click: Activates a momentary switch with 300g force; Rotate detection functional in up and down button positions
Dynamic feedback: Provides tactile feedback in software adjustable increments
On-screen detection: Touch digitizer reports the onscreen location through a capacitive pattern (Studio only)

https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/Surface-Dial/productID.5074013900

Great find. Thanks.

Interesting bit about the Dial recognition. It's a simple electro static pattern recognition. Should be easy for 3rd parties to implement something similar. We tried to use that for toys at my previous employment and got cockblocked by a Disney patent (which I thought was grossly over reaching in its wording). I guess MS lawyers thought so too, or MS is simply paying Disney royalties on the patent.

 

[TheSoed]

I managed to use one over the weekend, it's absolutely fantastic. I personally would have no use for it as I'm not a professional artist by trade, but the art college part of me was drooling with every pen stroke. If there's even a passing interest in the concept as a professional, it's absolutely worth it.

The Dial definitely takes some getting used to. In my limited time with it, I never truly got a handle on it. I appreciated it for sure, but it's an adjustment, just like any new UI or new interface. Also, not sure why, but the Dial I was using kept slipping down the screen. It could've been the Studio itself, as I'm not sure it was down all the way, but I did find that odd.

I'm totally sold. Like someone said earlier, I'd change professions so I could use this thing full time. It's a wonderful piece of tech.

 

[heyf00L]

It's kind of crazy that Microsoft is going after the niche creative professional market and Apple is meanwhile completely abandoning that same market. Never thought I'd see the day.

But you see the effect. When you get your brand connected to "doing cool stuff" even us normal users get interested. This hardware won't sell well, but it's awesome marketing.

 

[ColdPizza]

It seems many tech sites were caught off guard by the response of the Surface Studio. So now there is this gluttony of articles and video about the Mac Book Pro, but sites keep posting "thoughts about the Surface Studio" because they a) either didn't send anyone to Redmond for the press event, or b) didn't get any hands on time or media from other sites to draw in the clicks.

Also, this:

https://stephanietarling.bandcamp.com/track/pure-imagination-surface-studio-cover

Amazing. Better than the Fiona Apple cover I think.

Good for her. I can see this being a huge boost to her career.

 

[TheSoed]

But you see the effect. When you get your brand connected to "doing cool stuff" even us normal users get interested. This hardware won't sell well, but it's awesome marketing.

Absolutely agreed. My wife and my 3 year old daughter were using the Surface Book while I was playing with the Studio. After we left, she was like "wow, Microsoft is exciting again".

I agree, Microsoft is exciting again.

 

[StudioTan]

It's kind of crazy that Microsoft is going after the niche creative professional market and Apple is meanwhile completely abandoning that same market. Never thought I'd see the day.

But you see the effect. When you get your brand connected to "doing cool stuff" even us normal users get interested. This hardware won't sell well, but it's awesome marketing.

I was just talking about this with my wife, I think it's a big mistake for Apple. That "niche" market is mostly what kept them alive in the lean years.

The creatives are the ones that write the movies, TV shows, make podcasts, make art, magazines, bloggers, youtubers, musicians etc. The Apple love seeps into a lot of media from those people and it's basically free advertising. You already have a lot of those same people questioning the direction Apple is going as it seems to be abandoning creative professionals and creative non-professionals alike.

I remember watching a video from a music producer after the iPad Pro was released questioning what Apple was doing since it wasn't really a "Pro" device and he wanted them to put out something like a Surface which can run his full music software on a tablet and not just apps. He was already (tentatively) thinking of switching to PC because what he wanted was what MS was releasing. Apple did nothing to improve that feeling with the latest reveals I'm sure. No serious musician is going to be using the touch bar for anything beyond the initial novelty. A touch screen would do the job better and there are dozens of peripherals for interacting with your DAW that work better.

 

[Totakeke]

I also had a brief experience with the Studio over the weekend. The screen is amazing for sure, surprisingly I didn't really see fingerprints all over the thing. The hinge works great and feels seamless, which isn't surprising since making hinges are the Surface's team forte now.

It has the same advantage as Surface Pro does because you can tuck the keyboard away thus minimizing the distance between your eyesight and the screen. A 28" screen tilted right towards you does envelope your field of vision and it does feel like you're being drawn in since you can't see anything else.

 

[Meh3D]

I was drawing on one. Super cool, super inspiring. Feel like this is what Apple should of shown. Here is a picture of me using it. I have videos too of me drawing. Had a bit of an issue that was more towards never having used a dial like this before.

http://imgur.com/16CY2FU

 

[sarcastor]

Just tried it out at the Microsoft store. Definitely noticeable lag. Coming from an iPad Pro + pencil, drawing on the studio was not as precise or fast. I also have an old Intuos 3 Wacom so maybe I'm just spoiled.

The screen is nice. Too nice. But paying $3000 for a drawing tablet with lag imho is not worth it. Maybe they can fix it with updates ?

 

[Shogmaster]

Just tried it out at the Microsoft store. Definitely noticeable lag. Coming from an iPad Pro + pencil, drawing on the studio was not as precise or fast. I also have an old Intuos 3 Wacom so maybe I'm just spoiled.

The screen is nice. Too nice. But paying $3000 for a drawing tablet with lag imho is not worth it. Maybe they can fix it with updates ?

You can't compare the two hardware with different software like that. With the right software, there is no lag.

Lag is product of hardware + software. There tends to be less lag on iPad Pro since the apps are so simple and the canvas size is limited by the app. For instance, most iPad Pro art apps max out their brush at 50 pixels. I use 50 pixel brushes on Windows 2 in1s as the starting brush size!

 

[sarcastor]

You can't compare the two hardware with different software like that. With the right software, there is no lag.

Lag is product of hardware + software. There tends to be less lag on iPad Pro since the apps are so simple and the canvas size is limited by the app. For instance, most iPad Pro art apps max out their brush at 50 pixels. I use 50 pixel brushes on Windows 2 in1s as the starting brush size!

I draw 4500x6000 on my iPad Pro. No lag with procreate. Did a 3000x2000 drawing in the studio with sketchable. Ink pen at smallest brush size, and had noticeable lag. I only drew for two minutes on a demo unit, so I'm just giving my impressions :/

 

[StudioTan]

Just tried it out at the Microsoft store. Definitely noticeable lag. Coming from an iPad Pro + pencil, drawing on the studio was not as precise or fast. I also have an old Intuos 3 Wacom so maybe I'm just spoiled.

The screen is nice. Too nice. But paying $3000 for a drawing tablet with lag imho is not worth it. Maybe they can fix it with updates ?

That's weird, I literally just purchased Sketchable and was drawing for the past hour and didn't notice any lag on my Surface Pro 4 and I doubt the Studio is worse for lag.

Also, there is lag on the Intros, you just don't notice it because you're not seeing your pen stroke at the same time as your cursor like you do on a screen.

 

[Zantetsuken]

This thing looks so damn cool.

 

[luxarific]

Ugh, the Studio has me questioning my life choices. Makes me want to learn how to art.

Also, like everyone else I want to be Rocky Racoon's friend.

 

[iddqd]

Saw a news article about the Studio, scrolled down to read some comments and got stuck at one that seemed to know some shit.
Looked at the screen name, Shogmaster indeed.
The Shogmaster is everywhere!

As someone working 10+ h everyday with a 13hd Cintiq, I'm currently torn between going for the 22hd OR waiting for a Surface Pro 5 first.

22HD would be nice with an ergo arm but I'm still just drawing at the table.
Surface would be swell to storyboard in the living room but I'm unsure I actually WANT to do more work outside the office. Tough enough to get free time and all.

First world problems

 

[Totakeke]

Looks like the OEMs have a better inside scoop with Microsoft's development this time. Here's Dell's version.

https://youtu.be/Y5E_dGW2DFY

 

[Shogmaster]

I draw 4500x6000 on my iPad Pro. No lag with procreate. Did a 3000x2000 drawing in the studio with sketchable. Ink pen at smallest brush size, and had noticeable lag. I only drew for two minutes on a demo unit, so I'm just giving my impressions :/

Sounds like there was something going on with that unit. That low of a res in Sketchable will show no lag. My time with it using Photoshop CC was lag free and that app is laggy compared to others.

 

[Shogmaster]

Saw a news article about the Studio, scrolled down to read some comments and got stuck at one that seemed to know some shit.
Looked at the screen name, Shogmaster indeed.
The Shogmaster is everywhere!

As someone working 10+ h everyday with a 13hd Cintiq, I'm currently torn between going for the 22hd OR waiting for a Surface Pro 5 first.

22HD would be nice with an ergo arm but I'm still just drawing at the table.
Surface would be swell to storyboard in the living room but I'm unsure I actually WANT to do more work outside the office. Tough enough to get free time and all.

First world problems

Must have been that Terrible Engadget article. It compelled me to comment.

 

[SCULLIBUNDO]

I would never take a store demo model as indicative of lag or no lag. Those things are never turned off and are often running Demo bullshit 24/7 on screen and in the background with no stopping.

 

[StudioTan]

There was a demonstration done on the Studio during an Adobe Max live stream and he confirmed that Adobe is working to integrate the Dial into all the CC apps.

Awesome news!