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[Crayon Shinchan]

Some people are trying to spin Microsoft as a reasonable corporate citizen just as some people are trying to spin it as an entity of evil.

It's not evil, but it the decisions involved in this suit were callous, lack of empathy, and just sheer lack of care. From a business perspective, it makes sense for Microsoft to aggressively counterclaim against all lawsuits brought against it. After all, it is a massive company, and a massively visible litigant. Many suits brought against it are spurious.
At the same time, many are valid. However, all the same, like health care insurance companies, it's better to pay for the people to deny these claims then it is to actually determine the legitimate claims and pay them out.
In the process of that automatic aggressive denial... shit is going to slip through. Like this.

From what we know; Xboxes did have a fire hazard problem. That MS did recognize this issue and recalled and replaced the source of the fire hazard problem. But only after the death occured in this case.
The question then is if you want to dispute MS's fault; what could the litigants have done to have knowingly abused the Xbox to cause it to malfunction in such a fault... other than treat it in the same way that caused faults in the recognized fire hazard problem.

Given what we know about the business practices of large corporations, what we know about the facts of the case, you would be hard pressed to argue this as something other than a grave oversight on Microsoft's legal team.
So MS defenders... what could the family have been doing with their Xbox short of taking matches to it, that could've caused it to be the source of fire?

 

[Dirtbag]

Nintendo would have replaced the power cord for free.

into

Wow.

stealth edit of the year!

 

[Psychotext]

So MS defenders... what could the family have been doing with their Xbox short of taking matches to it, that could've caused it to be the source of fire?

I suppose you could call me an MS defender in this case. So I'm saying two things.

1: Right now we have no proof they even owned an xbox.
2: We also have no proof that if they did have an xbox, it caused the fire.

When we know more, maybe it would be worthy of discussion.

[Edit - Why did this take so long to get to court btw? Anyone know? Because I'd guess that any investigation would have shown the cause of the fire a long time ago.]

 

[Speevy]

I thought it was funny when I read the fire part, but then I read the part about the kid dying.

That's not funny.

 

[InterMoniker]

I thought it was funny when I read the fire part, but then I read the part about the kid dying.

That's not funny.

No its not.

Some people are trying to spin Microsoft as a reasonable corporate citizen just as some people are trying to spin it as an entity of evil.

It's not evil, but it the decisions involved in this suit were callous, lack of empathy, and just sheer lack of care. From a business perspective, it makes sense for Microsoft to aggressively counterclaim against all lawsuits brought against it. After all, it is a massive company, and a massively visible litigant. Many suits brought against it are spurious.
At the same time, many are valid. However, all the same, like health care insurance companies, it's better to pay for the people to deny these claims then it is to actually determine the legitimate claims and pay them out.
In the process of that automatic aggressive denial... shit is going to slip through. Like this.

From what we know; Xboxes did have a fire hazard problem. That MS did recognize this issue and recalled and replaced the source of the fire hazard problem. But only after the death occured in this case.
The question then is if you want to dispute MS's fault; what could the litigants have done to have knowingly abused the Xbox to cause it to malfunction in such a fault... other than treat it in the same way that caused faults in the recognized fire hazard problem.

Given what we know about the business practices of large corporations, what we know about the facts of the case, you would be hard pressed to argue this as something other than a grave oversight on Microsoft's legal team.
So MS defenders... what could the family have been doing with their Xbox short of taking matches to it, that could've caused it to be the source of fire?

A+ Post man.

 

[Crayon Shinchan]

I suppose you could call me an MS defender in this case. So I'm saying two things.

1: Right now we have no proof they even owned an xbox.

When we know more, maybe it would be worthy of discussion.

[Edit - Why did this take so long to get to court btw? Anyone know? Because I'd guess that any investigation would have shown the cause of the fire a long time ago.]

1: Jesus, if we're going to dispute that, we might as well dispute the existence of this family, or the child itself.

2: MS does not dispute the Xbox as the cause of fire!

This much has already been established.

 

[RobertM]

*rolleyes* keep wrestling out of the games topics. Peoples choice of favourite wrestler should have no bearing on this. Along with this and the Dick Cheney thing, i don't know where some of you get off!

If you're so narrow minded, I'll let you keep rolling those eyes since you totally didn't even look into my comment, have a nice day.

 

[Open Source]

No, Bishop is correct because he bloody well said so.

And if you think OT is a cesspool, whaddya call the system wars over on this side? Decorum, Inc.? If your politician of choice is getting smacked around, I suggest you log off the net, turn off the television, and head to your underground bunker with other like-minded individuals so your precious feelings won't get hurt, Elizabeth.

don't forget to close the door behind you

So you're saying it's OK for people to take cheap shots at random off-topic targets in the subject lines of gaming-related posts? Would you like to see the front page full of: "PS3 is doing as poorly as the Libertarian party", "Dave Perry is full of more hot air than Hillary Clinton", "Wii is sabatoging PS3 sales like Nader sabatoged Gore", "Wii Fitness - a great game (that Rush Limbaugh would hate)" and that kind of crap? I sure wouldn't, and it seems like as a moderator, you would use your power to clean up that kind of crap. Unlike with system wars, those people don't have the flimsy "it's gaming-related" excuse to justify their bitter feces-flinging.

 

[Psychotext]

1: Jesus, if we're going to dispute that, we might as well dispute the existence of this family, or the child itself.

2: MS does not dispute the Xbox as the cause of fire!

This much has already been established.

I freely state that I'm utterly wrong then and await further information.

No defence from me, I hadn't seen their admission.

 

[DCharlie]

If you're so narrow minded, I'll let you keep rolling those eyes since you totally didn't even look into my comment, have a nice day.

i thought i wouldn't need to put "THIS IS A JOKE" in big flashing neon letters.... i thought it was pretty obvious, but hey...

regardless - i hardly see why i have to ask the undertaker when the fire department/accident investigation/case notes should tell us what we need.


actually... for all your "didn't even look into my comment" did you even read what i wrote? I'm guessing you didn't get beyond the second *.

Unless of course you really WERE talking about wrestling....

So you're saying it's OK for people to take cheap shots at random off-topic targets in the subject lines of gaming-related posts? Would you like to see the front page full of: "PS3 is doing as poorly as the Libertarian party", "Dave Perry is full of more hot air than Hillary Clinton", "Wii is sabatoging PS3 sales like Nader sabatoged Gore", "Wii Fitness - a great game (that Rush Limbaugh would hate)" and that kind of crap? I sure wouldn't, and it seems like as a moderator, you would use your power to clean up that kind of crap. Unlike with system wars, those people don't have the flimsy "it's gaming-related" excuse to justify their bitter feces-flinging.

the fact that Cheney's name is used has nothing to do with politics though does it? I'd guess the OP simply thought of the dodgiest, dirtiest, most corrupt person they could think of and , right now, Dick is the undisputed global standard for that. The other examples don't really hold as much weight as there are better examples.

I simply can't think of anyone who would suit this analogy - the fact he is a politician is pretty secondary.

 

[Cheerilee]

Political bitching in a GAF thread is the result of an open, obvious, and apparent condition which was known to and recognized by the OP and/or others who, nevertheless, knowingly, willingly, intentionally, and voluntarily exposed themselves to said danger and assumed the risk of incident, injuries, losses, and damages.

 

[Open Source]

the fact that Cheney's name is used has nothing to do with politics though does it? I'd guess the OP simply thought of the dodgiest, dirtiest, most corrupt person they could think of and , right now, Dick is the undisputed global standard for that. The other examples don't really hold as much weight as there are better examples.

I simply can't think of anyone who would suit this analogy - the fact he is a politician is pretty secondary.

Then by your own logic, it was a political statement...that Dick Cheney is a bastard who would kill a baby and then blame the baby's family.

Meanwhile, journalists in Russia are being murdered for investigating the government, people in Iran are being arrested (and sometimes executed) for being gay, drinking alcohol, associating with members of the opposite sex, etc., and Robert Mugabe is pretty much the epitome of the incompetent yet ruthless dictator in Zimbabwe. But if you're a rabid Democrat, Cheney is worse than all of them. Disgusting, unjustifiable, and not appropriate for the gaming forum.

 

[DenogginizerOS]

An infant died. That is where this story goes beyond the average thread on GAF. If the cord is the reason, and the family can prove it, and MS still fights it, I find that apalling.

On the other hand, this case was also filed in May of 2007 and says an "Xbox 360" is the cause of the fire. The fire occurred in 2004. Hrmmmmm.

 

[HokieJoe]

So MS defenders... what could the family have been doing with their Xbox short of taking matches to it, that could've caused it to be the source of fire?

I'll sum it all up for you: you don't have all of the facts. You might think of a thousand things, or one thing to blame MS for in this case. For every thousand you might think of, there could be a thousand more that had nothing to do with this family’s claim. What’s more, I'd suggest you do some research about the filthy litigation industry in Illinois.

To be clear, I'm not stating that MS is innocent or guilty. The fact is, I don’t know who is at fault, and neither does anyone else at this point. Any other contention at this juncture seems like pointless, fanboy-driven bullsh**, or vested interested campaigning to me.

 

[Karma Kramer]

lol

I find it humorus people seem to know enough about this case to know Microsoft is already guilty.

I hope none of you ever end up being on jury duty.

 

[Dirtbag]

I'll sum it all up for you: you don't have all of the facts. You might think of a thousand things, or one thing to blame MS for in this case. For every thousand you might think of, there could be a thousand more that had nothing to do with this family’s claim. What’s more, I'd suggest you do some research about the filthy litigation industry in Illinois.

To be clear, I'm not stating that MS is innocent or guilty. The fact is, I don’t know who is at fault, and neither does anyone else at this point. Any other contention at this juncture seems like pointless, fanboy-driven bullsh**, or vested interested campaigning to me.

not to mention the other side of the argument would be parental negligence/irresponsibility something no family wants to assume blame for, people sue in this country for everything. We live in age of the lawsuit, and you notice the family is going for money and not a criminal charge. with those possibilities still out there... quit assuming.

 

[SapientWolf]

I'll sum it all up for you: you don't have all of the facts. You might think of a thousand things, or one thing to blame MS for in this case. For every thousand you might think of, there could be a thousand more that had nothing to do with this family’s claim. What’s more, I'd suggest you do some research about the filthy litigation industry in Illinois.

To be clear, I'm not stating that MS is innocent or guilty. The fact is, I don’t know who is at fault, and neither does anyone else at this point. Any other contention at this juncture seems like pointless, fanboy-driven bullsh**, or vested interested campaigning to me.

Unless they poured gasoline on their XBox, I think there are already enough facts for a reasonable person to conclude that MS has at least partial liability in this case.

 

[DCharlie]

Meanwhile, journalists in Russia are being murdered for investigating the government, people in Iran are being arrested (and sometimes executed) for being gay, drinking alcohol, associating with members of the opposite sex, etc., and Robert Mugabe is pretty much the epitome of the incompetent yet ruthless dictator in Zimbabwe. But if you're a rabid Democrat, Cheney is worse than all of them. Disgusting, unjustifiable, and not appropriate for the gaming forum.

... oh shut up , you overly sensitive milk sop. Take it over to the O.T. for full warp factor 10 whinging.

 

[HokieJoe]

Unless they poured gasoline on their XBox, I think there are already enough facts for a reasonable person to conclude that MS has at least partial liability in this case.

I don't claim to know who is liable...either partially or fully in this claim.

Have you read the victims' lawsuit or MS's rebuttal in their entirety (ergo, all of the relevant documents filed with the Illinois Circuit Court)?

 

[urk]

...what could the family have been doing with their Xbox short of taking matches to it, that could've caused it to be the source of fire?

Could've had it wrapped in a towel.

 

[Dirtbag]

... oh shut up , you overly sensitive milk sop. Take it over to the O.T. for full warp factor 10 whinging.

you brought that on yourself.

I reiterate politics have no place on a videogame forum. I don't care to hear anyone's opinion on the matter here.

Videogames and their discussion are my/and many others escape from the real world.
I play them to get away.

Could've had it wrapped in a towel.

then it would be GAF's fault.

 

[SapientWolf]

I don't claim to know who is liable...either partially or fully in this claim.

Have you read the victims' lawsuit or MS's rebuttal in their entirety (ergo, all of the relevant documents filed with the Illinois Circuit Court)?

I read the part that said the fire was caused by a defective power supply manufactured by MS. If the family did something so outrageous with their XBox that it would invalidate that claim, I would love to hear it. Maybe they were using their little XBox fire to warm themselves up and it got out of hand.

 

[HokieJoe]

Could've had it wrapped in a towel.

Well, that brings up an interesting question. I've read several reports that the family named the Xbox 360 in the suit. That doesn't sound plausible given the time frame, but do we actually know what the filing said?

 

[HokieJoe]

I read the part that said the fire was caused by a defective power supply manufactured by MS. If the family did something so outrageous with their XBox that it would invalidate that claim, I would love to hear it. Maybe they were using their little XBox fire to warm themselves up and it got out of hand.

Has the power supply issue been proven as the cause of the fire in this case?

 

[DCharlie]

On the other hand, this case was also filed in May of 2007 and says an "Xbox 360" is the cause of the fire. The fire occurred in 2004. Hrmmmmm.

yeah, plus suing a power supply manufacturer?

the Xbox is a staight plug in, unless they are talking about the internal PSU , but this does sound like the X360 they are talking about. Though MS's response doesn't sound consistant with that either.

Again, we don't know enough - but obviously, if they ARE saying it was an X360, then obviously MS would have more than enough ammo to have this dismissed.

you brought that on yourself.

and i told him to take it to OT where we can talk about how wrong he still is about other people being worse!

Videogames and their discussion are my/and many others escape from the real world.
I play them to get away.

it's an overreaction to a thread title - nothing more nothing less.

 

[Red Blaster]

Then by your own logic, it was a political statement...that Dick Cheney is a bastard who would kill a baby and then blame the baby's family.

Wouldn't surprise me.

 

[Dirtbag]

Has the power supply issue been proven as the cause of the fire in this case?

It hasn't even gone to court yet, nothing is decided.
Jesus GAF!

 

[HokieJoe]

It hasn't even gone to court yet, nothing is decided.
Jesus GAF!

Well, I have my opinion on the matter, but I asked because SapientWolf sounds as though he has inside knowledge on this issue. ;-)

 

[urk]

I don't think Cheney's tiny, shriveled, coal-black heart has enough muscle to pump the necessary blood to his face to get a good blush going

Shame about that kid though.

 

[Dirtbag]

it's an overreaction to a thread title - nothing more nothing less.

Videogames = Serious Business

It's always an overreaction if you yourself does not agree. Unless you just enjoy playing devil's advocate. I'm doing my absolute best at not taking this personally.

the fact that Cheney's name is used has nothing to do with politics though does it? I'd guess the OP simply thought of the dodgiest, dirtiest, most corrupt person they could think of and , right now, Dick is the undisputed global standard for that. The other examples don't really hold as much weight as there are better examples.

I simply can't think of anyone who would suit this analogy - the fact he is a politician is pretty secondary.

Don't pretend your unbiased here either.

 

[AmishNazi]

Cheney shot his friend in the face and made him apologize. MS burnt down their house and now wants to make the pay the lawyer fees.

 

[DCharlie]

Don't pretend your unbiased here either.

unbaised against who? MS or Cheney?

if it's re: MS - All i've said here is i'd like the facts to what happened before i make a comment. I've already said that i wouldn't die of shock if MS were acting shady. There is a huge difference between liking the games that happen to run on a particular piece of hardware and defending a company who might be negligent in the death of a child. All i want is to know the full details - i'm not defending MS and i'm not blaming the family in question - because we simply don't have enough detail other than the tragic outcome.

 

[adamsappel]

Then by your own logic, it was a political statement...that Dick Cheney is a bastard who would kill a baby and then blame the baby's family.

No, the thread title implies that even Dick Cheney wouldn't stoop that low.

 

[Barnolde]

If you had a launch Xbox, you'd know the problem rests with the power supply. It burns and sparks and smells quite awful. I've got black, burn marks on the PSU in my Xbox, there wasn't enough solder put on the actual PSU itself, which is why a quick re-solder alleviates the issue.

 

[Crayon Shinchan]

I'll sum it all up for you: you don't have all of the facts. You might think of a thousand things, or one thing to blame MS for in this case. For every thousand you might think of, there could be a thousand more that had nothing to do with this family’s claim. What’s more, I'd suggest you do some research about the filthy litigation industry in Illinois.

The key fact that we have is that Microsoft IS NOT disputing the cause of the fire; cited to be the Xbox in this case.

They're saying negligent use of the device despite KNOWN ISSUES (i.e. widely known after Febuary 2005) caused the fire.

So. Again. What could you do to a Xbox that would constitute misuse and cause it to catch fire?

 

[DopeyFish]

The key fact that we have is that Microsoft IS NOT disputing the cause of the fire; cited to be the Xbox in this case.

They're saying negligent use of the device despite KNOWN ISSUES (i.e. widely known after Febuary 2005) caused the fire.

So. Again. What could you do to a Xbox that would constitute misuse and cause it to catch fire?

left it operating in a non-ventilated space on a rug unattended? *shrug*

 

[Barnolde]

left it operating in a non-ventilated space on a rug unattended? *shrug*

Mine sparked from average use in a faux-wood entertainment center. It actually took me a little while to realize what it was, because something smelled like burning. After some quick troubleshooting, I realized it was the Xbox that was burning, so I opened it and noticed there were black burn marks on the PSU. I applied some more solder to the connection as the lack of it is what was causing the problems. Haven't had a problem since.

It's why MS stopped using those power supplies. All this and the Thomson DVD drive issues have been well documented on places like Xbox-Scene. The power cord itself was NEVER THE ISSUE. It was one brand of power supplies (Foxlink) used early on in the system's life.

 

[AzureNightmare]

This family needs to hire Nintendo's lawyers., I'm sure they're just starving for some fresh meat while that immersion lawsuit goes nowhere fast.

 

[FightyF]

I think this may have to do with the family possibly overloading an outlet, as now with the 360 they've come out with a surge protector/power supply that is only supposed to be plugged to the wall, and not through a splitter or surge protector.

Disregarding the fact that Microsoft probably hires lawyers far beyond the economic reach of the majority of citizens, this is just the most cold-hearted thing I've ever seen. Not only do they blame the family for a defect that was well-known in their console, they have the gall to ask that the family pay them for this.

Isn't that a good thing? It discourages people from coming up with BS lawsuits.

 

[Orlics]

Isn't that a good thing? It discourages people from coming up with BS lawsuits.

Microsoft OBVIOUSLY needs to hire some armchair lawyers from GAF.

 

[MikeB]

From 2005:

"Anglesey fire and rescue spokesman Dave Evans confirmed the fire was caused by a "fault in an Xbox game machine" left on standby. Back in February, Microsoft recalled 14.1m Xbox power cables shipped into Europe before 13 January, 2004 and in other territories before 23 October, 2003, as we previously reported. MS admitted to "30 or so reports from users suffering minor burns, singed upholstery or scorched carpets as a result of power lead malfunctions""

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/11/23/xbox_blaze/

Of course the case is much more serious than burns from a cup of coffee. If there is any basis for the claim, IMO Microsoft should have settled. They haven't, but if the story is plausible and they are found guilty I hope they will be punished accordingly, on a scale cup of coffee burns <<<<<<<<<<<<<< death of infant.

 

[onegoodlogan]

"Ya know, babies combust."

 

[Psychotext]

"Ya know, babies combust."

Really classy.

 

[itsgreen]

The baby had it coming...

Spoiler

But in all seriousness, it really is a sad case, if MS did anything wrong they should have settled it. But if it didn't, why settle?Anywho this will be a major blow to MS PR. Foxnews: Microsoft killed baby with ring of death

 

[onegoodlogan]

Really classy.

I agree, Moore knows how to wear a suit.

 

[polyh3dron]

What the heck? I hope that the family gets some random amounts of billions from MS..

Btw, did you notice that XBOX LIVE is EVIL XOBX backwards.

 

[Psychotext]

I agree, Moore knows how to wear a suit.

You're forgiven! :lol

 

[MikeB]

To add to my previous post. I am neutral towards the creditability of the family with regard to this issue, but considering the evidence I think they may very well have a valid case. It's very sad to to loose your child.

Microsoft on the other hand has zero creditability for me. There have been many fully valid lawsuits against them, but due to their deep pockets and therefore more much legal power (sadly that's how it goes in the US), usually they settle for a couple of millions with smaller industry players while not admitting to any wrong doing. During the US Government anti-trust lawsuit against Microsoft, Microsoft "donated" millions of dollars to lawmakers and politicians, who afterwards opted for pushing for settlements instead of actiuallyt breaking up the company like was originally planned. The second largest Bush administration donator was also Microsoft and through PAC and personal M$ employee/executive "donations" up to 100,000 USD the Bush campaign also received large amount of funding (to directly fund political campaigns is illegal in the US).

Even with regard to the XBox 360 Microsoft denied any problems for a very long time and blamed most issues on their consumers. If not for their financial reporting to shareholders I think we may never have seen a warranty extension. Their financial reports show about 1 million XBox 360s to be unrepairably defective. The 1 Billion warranty plan for solely general hardware failures, kind of covers this up (about 400 million USD) by putting the costs in a larger 1 Billion USD package. Also with such evidence which cannot be denied any longer, consumers around the world have grounds for solid legal cases against Microsoft, so maybe with the warranty extension they try to prevent this.

All in all, I'm not M$ fanboy. They became big due to IBM's mistake to let Microsoft built thier OS, which BTW Microsoft bought for 25K USD from a sole developer (QDOS, Quick and Dirty Operating System, as it was called) which had nearly completely ripped off the CP/M operating system (kind of funny how M$ is now filling for often rediculous patents to defend their IP). MSDOS was one of the most limited and handicapped OSes ever released. At marketing Microsoft does a good job however, releasing Windows 95 in 1996 as if multi-media and multi-tasking was something really new, something an OS like AmigaOS in many cases did a better job a decade before it. /rant

 

[Psychotext]

All in all, I'm not M$ fanboy.

Up until that I was having trouble telling!

 

[bishoptl]

I sure wouldn't, and it seems like as a moderator, you would use your power to clean up that kind of crap. Unlike with system wars, those people don't have the flimsy "it's gaming-related" excuse to justify their bitter feces-flinging.

I didn't ask what you'd like, and the only bitter guy around here seems to be you.