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[Afro Republican]

https://www.windowscentral.com/project-xcloud-input-lag-measures-10-ms-may-need-5-mbps-internet

oday, Google is unveiling its streaming platform, but that hasn't stopped Microsoft from dropping some new information about its upcoming Project xCloud streaming service which is expected to enter public trials in 2019. Microsoft's vice president of the gaming cloud Kareem Choudhry sat down with Eurogamer to discuss what to expect from the upcoming service.
When asked about the latency, Choudhry said the following.

From the data centers we have near Washington we're seeing really good latency - less than 10 ms that's being added by the traversal to the cloud. Frankly we find more latency in the Bluetooth stack, connected to an Android phone.​

Google's streaming technology requires a lot of bandwidth to stream games at the highest quality, but Microsoft hopes to limit that to the single digits. Choudhry added the following.

We hope to get down to single digit Mbps. I think some of the demos we've shown so far have probably gone down to nine, ten Mbps. Some of the work that we're doing with Microsoft research, I think we'll be able to get a really good video feed probably around six to five.​

Lastly, it seems like Project xCloud may be part of Xbox Game Pass. Towards the end of the interview, Choudhry said the following.

Obviously Xbox Game Pass is our subscription service, it's really where we want to deliver great experiences and value to our customers. And right now it's a console product - we have aspirations to bring it to more users and more places. Project xCloud and Xbox Game Pass are going to coexist in some reasonable way.​

Hopefully Project xCloud will live up to expectations. In order to be a gaming platform for everyone, it has to be cognizant of internet limitations like data caps. We'll see what the future holds, but answers to those questions will determine who wins the "streaming wars."

less than 10ms, no heavy bandwidth, and part of gamepass?

Well looks like there's no longer any reason for Xbox owners to be interested in Stavia, or Stadia, or whatever. Those that watched the Google conference saw the bad latency live so haha, looks like Google got kneecapped on their big day.

I expect this Stadia to go the way of Inbox and Zune, and for Microsoft Xcloud and Sony Now to improve and become better options.

 

[nikolino840]

I appreciate the technology but i'm not interested for as consumer

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

No poll?

Where is the real Afro?

But no thanks to streaming.

 

[Meowzers]

Sounds promising.

I would guess 5Mbps would get you 720p. If it can give me 4K 60fps with HDR at around 18-20Mbps then consider me a customer!

 

[Von Hugh]

inst rested in Stavia, or Stadia, or whatever.

Ah, I get it now, you make all these threads while drunk.

 

[TeamGhobad]

i have 1000mbit (according to my ISP) i will still never stream games. not happening.

people want dedicated gaming systems. i wonder if this cloud gaming will be the fad of this generation. every generation we've had a new fad, motion gaming, 3d, vr and now cloud. non of them were a success.

 

[Dontero]

My cloud tech in home on my server has 0 input lag.
I can play whatever i want regardless of internet speed i have.

I am yet too see how they can beat physics because i have 4ms to nearest server hub in warsaw let alone to something like germany.

 

[AgentP]

Speed of light solved!

 

[scalman]

but if you allready have console so to get stream to that as well would be cool bonus i would think. so lets them fight lets them be better , we just win from this all.

 

[n0razi]

10ms is less input lag than many monitors... how is that possible?

 

[TimFL]

Where do you read that xCloud is part of Game pass sub? "Project xCloud and Xbox Game Pass are going to coexist in some reasonable way." Sounds to me like it'll be another sub and co-exist in a reasonable way next to GP, cause it provides different value. Just like Gold exists next to GP (provides free games and online MP).

Having xCloud come free with GP would probably end the next generation before it even started, no way for Sony to beat that value.

 

[FranXico]

10ms is less input lag than many monitors... how is that possible?

From the data centers we have near Washington we're seeing really good latency

Controlled test environment, that's how. Latency varies depending on too many conditions, it's very difficult to predict accurately.

 

[Silent Viper]

I appreciate the technology but i'm not interested for as consumer

It's optional not forced.

 

[thehillissilent]

10ms is less input lag than many monitors... how is that possible?

It is BS. It will most likely be between 50-80ms round trip. They are always going to lowball estimates. Even Geforce Now adds around 50-80ms latency. However, you can run PC games on Geforce Now at way higher framerates than 60fps to help mitigate latency.

 

[Jigsaah]

https://www.windowscentral.com/project-xcloud-input-lag-measures-10-ms-may-need-5-mbps-internet


less than 10ms, no heavy bandwidth, and part of gamepass?

Well looks like there's no longer any reason for Xbox owners to be interested in Stavia, or Stadia, or whatever. Those that watched the Google conference saw the bad latency live so haha, looks like Google got kneecapped on their big day.

I expect this Stadia to go the way of Inbox and Zune, and for Microsoft Xcloud and Sony Now to improve and become better options.

Here's my thing. And this is one thing no one seems to be discussing. The developer tools. It honestly sounds like a snake oil sales pitch, but if this is even partially real it could mean the generational leap we have all been hoping for. I would have to get the quote, but Google seems to want to have developers be able to make their games with no hardware restrictions such as you would have in a devkit if I'm understanding this right. They mentioned "1000 player battle royales" as an example. They began the conference discussing AI. I feel this may be the thing to keep an eye on. Listen to the developers as they are able to experience this and give feedback.

 

[Gavin Stevens]

Nah... I’m ok thanks. I’ll stick with a proper box in front of me.

 

[n0razi]

Controlled test environment, that's how. Latency varies depending on too many conditions, it's very difficult to predict accurately.

Regardless of perfect lab conditions....

A typical monitor has about 10-50ms of input lag, even high end "gaming monitors" hover around 5-10ms... that is with a direct connection between your PC and your monitor about 2 feet away

How is any sort of network based connection beating that?

 

[SpartanN92]

Ah, I get it now, you make all these threads while drunk.

Poll:
Google Stavia
or
Google Salvia

 

[Xenon]

Streaming as an option, is better than as a platform. But the only place I'd have the bandwidth to play games as it home which is were my console will be sitting.

 

[Three]

10ms is less input lag than many monitors... how is that possible?

It's bullshit

 

[J-Rod]

From the data centers we have near Washington we're seeing really good latency

From Washington to where is my question. Are we all going to have these in our backyard? Perhaps they could even make a smaller version of these that reside in your home. They could call it Xbox.

 

[CyberPanda]

Nice.

 

[Stuart360]

I always get me bytes and bits mixed up, isnt 5mbps like 50mb?, if so then streaming isnt taking over anything. 16mb is the worldwide standard i believe, and it was still 8mb not so long ago.

 

[Fake]

No thx.

 

[ethomaz]

Feels like marketing PR bull...

 

[ethomaz]

I always get me bytes and bits mixed up, isnt 5mbps like 50mb?, if so then streaming isnt taking over anything. 16mb is the worldwide standard i believe, and it was still 8mb not so long ago.

5Mbps = 625KB/s

1B (byte) = 8b (bits)

But remember that internet speeds are mensured in Mbps (megabits).

 

[Spukc]

Afro Republican if you don't put in a poll in your thread i might alert the mods..

 

[Stuart360]

5Mbps = 625KB/s

1B (byte) = 8b (bits)

Oh shit, i thought you would need much better internet than that to stream current level games. In fact you need more than that to stream movies and TV dont you?

 

[DanielsM]

10ms is less input lag than many monitors... how is that possible?

In the real world it's not, its called bullshit.

Ping from my raspberry pi wireless to my router interface, I get around 4.5ms via ping packet, not traffic a ping. With a wired one I can get it down to .45ms. That's just to my local router interface. Now, if ping from those devices to the first hop for the ISP it averages out at around 21ms wired, and around 25ms wireless from a netgear nighthawk. So, for me for me to get 10ms, you would have to be on my local network, you're basically double just to the first hop.
http://www.azurespeed.com/

I average about 38ms to the closest Azure datacenter, and it spikes up for me all the way up to 60-70ms at times.

https://azurespeedtest.azurewebsites.net/

You can manually do pings to get a better measurement, manually I get a little lower than the web page, but it seems like a decent rough gauge.
https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/global-infrastructure/regions/

Good luck.

 

[ethomaz]

Oh shit, i thought you would need much better internet than that to stream current level games. In fact you need more than that to stream movies and TV dont you?

No.

From Netflix:

Below are the internet download speed recommendations per stream for playing TV shows and movies through Netflix.

• 0.5 Megabits per second - Required broadband connection speed
• 1.5 Megabits per second - Recommended broadband connection speed
• 3.0 Megabits per second - Recommended for SD quality
• 5.0 Megabits per second - Recommended for HD quality
• 25 Megabits per second - Recommended for Ultra HD quality

BTW MS said they reached sometimes 10-9Mbps... they believe they will reach 5-6Mbps.

 

[DeepEnigma]

We'll see in real world application.

 

[Afro Republican]

Afro Republican if you don't put in a poll in your thread i might alert the mods..

You'll never take me alive!

Ahh, the visname tag doesn't work anymore?

 

[SlashBringingHasher]

HD video. please you people have to understand that this is a compressed video. it will look like a youtube video.

 

[a multicultural team of v]

Here's my thing. And this is one thing no one seems to be discussing. The developer tools. It honestly sounds like a snake oil sales pitch, but if this is even partially real it could mean the generational leap we have all been hoping for. I would have to get the quote, but Google seems to want to have developers be able to make their games with no hardware restrictions such as you would have in a devkit if I'm understanding this right. They mentioned "1000 player battle royales" as an example. They began the conference discussing AI. I feel this may be the thing to keep an eye on. Listen to the developers as they are able to experience this and give feedback.

Yes, being entirely locked into a proprietary ecosystem that doubles as the hardware that doubles as the freaking transmission medium is definitely very developer friendly. Nothing says freedom like being married in totality to a platform you have zero control over with no alternative. If you develop a 1000 player game that uses Stadia you may as well just sell the rights to Google because there is no other platform you can even release on.

 

[Jigsaah]

Yes, being entirely locked into a proprietary ecosystem that doubles as the hardware that doubles as the freaking transmission medium is definitely very developer friendly. Nothing says freedom like being married in totality to a platform you have zero control over with no alternative. If you develop a 1000 player game that uses Stadia you may as well just sell the rights to Google because there is no other platform you can even release on.

This is a good point. However, I would assume developers who aspire to sell their game on multiple platforms wouldn't use this feature to that degree. Like you said, it wouldn't make sense. However for exclusives, it definitely could make sense and still means it's something to keep an eye on.

 

[joe_zazen]

Yes, being entirely locked into a proprietary ecosystem that doubles as the hardware that doubles as the freaking transmission medium is definitely very developer friendly. Nothing says freedom like being married in totality to a platform you have zero control over with no alternative. If you develop a 1000 player game that uses Stadia you may as well just sell the rights to Google because there is no other platform you can even release on.

I am no fan of giant American tech with ties to the cia, but it is using open source, so there is that.

 

[Afro Republican]

Yeah compressed video is a big issue. That's a factor that won't be fixed for years.

 

[a multicultural team of v]

I am no fan of giant American tech with ties to the cia, but it is using open source, so there is that.

Is it? I was actually kind of wondering what platform this was... Like I figured they weren't streaming you a Windows instance, but does this mean games need to be "ported" to this essentially? And that Google had to develop their own OS and graphics drivers and all that?

 

[DanielsM]

Is it? I was actually kind of wondering what platform this was... Like I figured they weren't streaming you a Windows instance, but does this mean games need to be "ported" to this essentially? And that Google had to develop their own OS and graphics drivers and all that?

Sounds like from the article that was posted that its a modified Linux but no mention that I have seen of them releasing it to the public or allowing the game to be played on local Linux boxes. Developers are also targeting particular specs.

https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2019/03/googles-new-game-service-is-based-on-linux-open-source-tech

 

[Fbh]

"Under this undisclosed ideal setup we are seeing great results".
Ok sure, but like many of these promises from tech companies I'll believe it when I can try it out myself.

 

[Spukc]

You'll never take me alive!

Ahh, the visname tag doesn't work anymore?

hmm i guess

 

[Woo-Fu]

That less than 10ms is on top of what the real world imposes.

Which hey, that's a great number, but people are forgetting/ignoring that roundtrip latency between the client and host is on top of that. I'd go so far as to say they're being intentionally misleading if this gets reported to the average user and not just to developers.

 

[SLB1904]

nah fam

 

[TLZ]

i have 1000mbit (according to my ISP) i will still never stream games. not happening.

people want dedicated gaming systems. i wonder if this cloud gaming will be the fad of this generation. every generation we've had a new fad, motion gaming, 3d, vr and now cloud. non of them were a success.

I think this is a Wii level kinda fad though. Reaching the masses and them connecting without hassle. It's good for that.

 

[DanielsM]

That less than 10ms is on top of what the real world imposes.

Which hey, that's a great number, but people are forgetting/ignoring that roundtrip latency between the client and host is on top of that. I'd go so far as to say they're being intentionally misleading if this gets reported to the average user and not just to developers.

Realistically, they be lucky to get below 40-60ms, best case. You can test out to the Azure datacenters above or manually ping them, which is small traffic, unless you're one hop from the datacenter its not going to happen.

 

[AgentP]

Yeah compressed video is a big issue. That's a factor that won't be fixed for years.

And it is real time compression, unlike a movie which is compressed offline with great IQ and the best compression rates. Now try that in real time due to being a game and you get much worse compression rates and worse IQ.

 

[BusierDonkey]

10ms from a data center across the street from MS headquarters, according to them.

For anyone without a fiber or high speed cable line,

 

[DeepEnigma]

10ms from a data center across the street from MS headquarters, according to them.

For anyone without a fiber or high speed cable line,

That gif is perfect for stream gaming.

 

[mejin]

if anyone still believe MS with DAT track record, please, lol

 

[RedVIper]

1. Bandwith and ping are pretty unrelated, I upgraded to a 1Gbt internet and have the same ping that I had before with 30Mbps.

2.The bigger problem is inconsistency, having 100ms input lag in a game feels kinda bad but you'll get used to it after a while, having a game jump around between 20 and 70ms feels way worse. This isn't an issue when you stream movies because you can buffer ahead, there's no buffering games.

3.Unless they're planning on having servers next to everyone's house I'm calling bullshit on the 10ms.