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Microsoft Sees 'Natal' as Your Next TV Remote

itxaka said:
Oh hell I forgot about FF11! Then you are probably right :)
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Yeah. MS's decision to make it a requirement, and a lot more games using it for caching than the few dozen on the PS2 that did, was definitely a step forward, it just wasn't the first serious effort out the gate and is thus evolutionary rather than revolutionary.

Edit: One thing MS did that -was- really innovative, even though I'm not sure I like the results, was to really heavily push the move off bare-metal programming for specialized platforms and toward a systemwide standard API, a small set of licenced engines, and hardware that closely resembles a locked-down desktop PC.
 
I'm not sure about games (even if I have a few hopes), but I'm 99% convinced that gesture-based interfaces will be really appreciated in the near future. Probably not the "wave around like an idiot" interfaces, and maybe they won't be perfect for everything (like channel-surfing). But it's better than looking for a remote (and nowadays you can easily have 5 of them in the living room) and pointing it towards the system.

Even the eyetoy interface was an enjoyable experience to push buttons without having to hold anything (of course it was special, since you had a visual feedback of yourself).

As for voice recognition, I'm not sure it's a good idea. Of course the technology may allow it, and it would look cool for a while, but I think people don't like to talk to machines. I'm sure I wouldn't anyway, I never use the voice recognition features of mobile phones for example.
 
Mandoric said:
Yeah. MS's decision to make it a requirement, and a lot more games using it for caching than the few dozen on the PS2 that did, was definitely a step forward, it just wasn't the first serious effort out the gate and is thus evolutionary rather than revolutionary.

Edit: One thing MS did that -was- really innovative, even though I'm not sure I like the results, was to really heavily push the move off bare-metal programming for specialized platforms and toward a systemwide standard API, a small set of licenced engines, and hardware that closely resembles a locked-down desktop PC.
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Yeah totally agree with that. MS only build onto that, but seeing that they were starting to push the DLC and such they needed a HDD. The caching of the games was a side effect of that.

For your other point, wasn't the Dreamcast (with MS help) the first to do that with the Windows CE? Weren't a bunch of games built on top of that as standard platform?


OFFTOPIC: BTW, was FF11 the reason that the PS2 got a HDD or it was the whole issue on the EU with Linux and trying to pass it as a PC to pay less taxes?
 
RSTEIN said:
Just because it works doesn't mean that people will adopt it. The whole thing is so much more complicated than that.

Obesity is a huge problem in North America. Being overweight can result in many health conditions. It's a huge killer. Yet of all the health issues that plague us its 'cure' is right infront of us: healthy eating and exercise. So if people have the kowledge to implement an action plan to live longer and healthier why don't they do it?

Modern day running shoes have had an enormously negative impact on our health. Many studies show that old and deformed running shoes perform better than brand new sneakers. Yet people all wear Nike shoes!

Why did people buy internet stocks at the top of the market? Why has the average mutual fund investor only made 4% over the last 20 years? Why do people sell at the bottom and buy at the top?

Why did the Newton fail when it was so ahead of its time? Why did the PS3 fail when it's more advanced than the 360 and Wii? In fact, why has the most poweful console in each generation performed the worst?
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So you're basicaly agreeing with me by saying Natal will be like all those other descriptions you just gave? ( as far as replacing the remote goes that is)

You come up with the craziest useless comparisons to make your point across, and again with the Newton lol
WrikaWrek said:
Waving an arm....how about just saying "channel 23", or saying "menu" and pointing up or down with your thumb.

Please. Most of the people here conveniently against the idea, all share one thing in common.
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They're not you?

And just for the record, that's just what I said from the start...

Metalmurphy said:
He's got a point as far as voice control goes, but gestures replacing a tv remote? :lol
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PSGames said:
http://tech.yahoo.com/news/zd/20091118/tc_zd/246199



Very interesting idea. I think it would be pretty cool to say "MTV" or "American Idol" and it automatically take you to that channel or show. This also shows that Natal is being developed with a broader spectrum in mind than just Videogames.
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:lol OMG MICROSOFT INVENTED VOICE RECOGNITION.

This could have happened at any point in the last 10 years, really. I suspect most people would find it much more tedious than simply pressing a button. It's waggle all over again.
 
maharg said:
:lol OMG MICROSOFT INVENTED VOICE RECOGNITION.

This could have happened at any point in the last 10 years, really. I suspect most people would find it much more tedious than simply pressing a button. It's waggle all over again.
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The big difference is that you don't have to hold anything. With the Wii and physical controllers, you still need to press a button to turn it on. It would be fucking awesome if I could yell "XBOX! XBOX! XBOX! XBOX 360 HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" and have it boot up.
 
Now picture channel surfing and saying "up" over and over and over again. In fact, try it. Tell me it doesn't either dry out your throat or make you feel like a gimp within a few seconds.
 
itxaka said:
Yeah totally agree with that. MS only build onto that, but seeing that they were starting to push the DLC and such they needed a HDD. The caching of the games was a side effect of that.

For your other point, wasn't the Dreamcast (with MS help) the first to do that with the Windows CE? Weren't a bunch of games built on top of that as standard platform?


OFFTOPIC: BTW, was FF11 the reason that the PS2 got a HDD or it was the whole issue on the EU with Linux and trying to pass it as a PC to pay less taxes?
Click to expand...

Dreamcast WinCE uptake was extremely limited, but it was definitely MS's first attempt at a standard API, including DirectX, on consoles. It needing to come on each game disc, and presumably requiring a licencing deal, probably hurt it a fair amount.

Honestly, I'm not sure there was a very good reason at launch for PS2 HDD support, other than the pie-in-the-sky HTPC/WebTV vision; without its one killer app it probably would have been a historical footnote like PS1 system link and multi-monitor support. The Japanese launch rev of the PS2 actually included a PCMCIA slot that later got a specialized network/external HDD card rather than an internal HDD bay. I'm unsure of how much Square's ambition of HDD installs and online functionality for FFX, followed by an all-out MMO in FFXI, influenced the PS2's design as opposed to being influenced by it.
 
maharg said:
Now picture channel surfing and saying "up" over and over and over again. In fact, try it. Tell me it doesn't either dry out your throat or make you feel like a gimp within a few seconds.
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Yup , and what if someone on TV says 'Up' through the speaker?
 
No thanks, I'll use my remote thank you. It's quiet, and simple.
Why would elderly people want to wave around their arms to change the channel? Amnd probably wouldn't work well with people with disabilities.
 
maharg said:
Now picture channel surfing and saying "up" over and over and over again. In fact, try it. Tell me it doesn't either dry out your throat or make you feel like a gimp within a few seconds.
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goomba said:
Yup , and what if someone on TV says 'Up' through the speaker?
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Heh, good one. For the love of god tell me you both don't seriously expect something like that to be impemented? Forget straw man, this is a damn straw colossus.

Also, whoever first implements interactive tv Jeopardy so I can scream at the TV "it's vincent van gogh you dumb motherfucker" and actually get points for it will win me over.
 
Well I imagine you wouldn't just say up. Most voice recognition systems have some kind of activation action, don't they? You'd have to press a button or hold something down to get it to begin accepting recognition?

I got some text to speech software in like 1998, like for my first computer. God, it was so bad. I wonder if it's any better now.

eat up martha
 
maharg said:
Now picture channel surfing and saying "up" over and over and over again. In fact, try it. Tell me it doesn't either dry out your throat or make you feel like a gimp within a few seconds.
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I imagine it's like BTTF2 where you say "TV, channels 24, 46 and scan channels on screen 3. Engage volume level 8."

but yeah, saying up and down would suck, except that's where you start moving your hands and crazy shit starts happening on the TV.
 
Metalmurphy said:
So you're basicaly agreeing with me by saying Natal will be like all those other descriptions you just gave? ( as far as replacing the remote goes that is)
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No. Your argument = technology X was launched N years ago. Technology X never caught on or was deemed a failure. Now some years later technology X is reintroduced, repackaged or rebranded. But because technology X did not succeed N years ago, technology X cannot be successful now.

I'm saying that it's way more complicated than that. Even when things are simple, as my examples intended to demonstrate, people don't do what is optimal despite evidence right infront of them.

Why is a $10 hamster on wheels the hottest gift this holiday season? A HAMSTER ON GODDAMN WHEELS? Using your argument this could never happen because little furry hamster toys were invented many years ago but were never popular. Because they were never popular they will never become popular.
 
RSTEIN said:
I'm saying that it's way more complicated than that. Even when things are simple, as my examples intended to demonstrate, people don't do what is optimal despite evidence right infront of them.
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That's exactly my point actually...

Why is a $10 hamster on wheels the hottest gift this holiday season? A HAMSTER ON GODDAMN WHEELS? Using your argument this could never happen because little furry hamster toys were invented many years ago but were never popular. Because they were never popular they will never become popular.
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Tv remote = toy? Your comparisons are getting more ridiculous each time you post.
 
Metalmurphy said:
Tv remote = toy? Your comparisons are getting more ridiculous each time you post.
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My comparison was using your logic so therefore you just called yourself ridiculous.
 
RSTEIN said:
My comparison was using your logic so therefore you just called yourself ridiculous.
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It was, but you used it in another context... A toy that was fun 10yrs ago can still be fun now. Specially when introduced to newer audiences that weren't around back then. But an impractical technology will always be impractical.

Go ahead and do another insane comparison to dismiss that even if it has nothing to do with what is being discussed.
 
So, you believe the following:

Metalmurphy said:
A toy that was fun 10yrs ago can still be fun now. Specially when introduced to newer audiences that weren't around back then.
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But you don't believe:

A technology that was introduced 10 years ago but failed can work now. Especially when introduced to new audiences that weren't around back then.


Is this correct?
 
Can I get paid to do this too? I'd love to get paid to do some viral marketing.
 
If I say yes, are you gonna bring the Newton again? Cause if you are then I'm gonna go with No :p


Seriously though, it's not just that it failed, it's WHY it failed. There's nothing drastically different about it that it'll make it work now. Sure people will admire it at first, and then they'll go back to the tv controller. Just like before.
 
PopcornMegaphone said:
MS has been innovative in the console space.

Hard drives
XBL, in general
Achievements
Arcade games
Indie Games
Netflix
etc

I'm sure I'll get nitpick'd but they've brought a lot of new experiences to console users.
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Nintendo has been innovative in the console space.

Built in flash memory
Friend codes and a safe online environment fro kids in general
Game time played statistics
Emulated Console games
Easy Flash game conversion
BBC iPlayer
etc

Just listing a bunch of stuff that a companies console is capable of doing, doesn't really demonstrate innovation. I mean no-one has put Hulu on a console yet, but would it really be innovative if someone did so.
 
Metalmurphy said:
Seriously though, it's not just that it failed, it's WHY it failed. There's nothing drastically different about it that it'll make it work now. Sure people will admire it at first, and then they'll go back to the tv controller. Just like before.
Click to expand...

Why do you think the Newton failed but now PDAs are everywhere?
 
WrikaWrek said:
Waving an arm....how about just saying "channel 23", or saying "menu" and pointing up or down with your thumb.

Please. Most of the people here conveniently against the idea, all share one thing in common.
Click to expand...
How is that any easier/efficient than pressing a damn button? :lol
What if you're sick and the voice recognition fucks up or you're too far from the tv and have to literally raise your voice more so it would recognize it. What if you have a bunch of people over and everyone is talking and there is excessive noise?

It is not more efficient/intuitive than pressing a button in the end. Also, I'd love to know what we all share in common since we're "conveniently against the idea."
 
RSTEIN said:
Why do you think the Newton failed but now PDAs are everywhere?
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Does it matter? Newton wasn't replacing a tv controller...

But just to entertain you, Apple didn't support it properly? the PDAs now are a drastic change? it was huge? people weren't as tech savy as they are now? It could have been anything, but like i said, this has nothing to do with what's being discussed here...
 
Just wanted to say that i don't believe Natal itself will replace shit, but that the "concept" behind it will be used in the future to replace the remote.

Anybody can walk into a room and mess around with the T.V, without having to look for the remote.

You can surf channels by just lifting your thumb for example. All of the questions, and "obstacles" here all have answers, most of them easy, because it's just an interface option away.
 
Holy Shit, did I just fell in a time warp?

I could swear the subject was "pressing buttons" in games instead of TV though...
 
goomba said:
What? Do you mean smartphones? . Nobody has a PDA thesedays.
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Right. PDAs laid the foundation for smartphones/iphones/Palm Pre/etc. The core concept (a portable device for communication, work productivity, etc.) surfaced briefly before dying. Then it resurfaced in a new package. It was successful the second time for many reasons.

First, metalmurphy disagreed with this statement by WrikaWrek:
WrikaWrek said:
It's pretty goddamn obvious that the remote will disappear and be replaced by hand motion and voice commands.
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LCfiner said:
LCfiner said:
Nope he's right.
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metalmurphy replied:
metalmurphy said:
We've had voice control on the PC for ages, I haven't seen anything change so far.
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The core of metalmurphy's argument is that failed technology X has existed for N years on device A so therefore technology X will not be successful on device B.

I then asked him why Newton failed but the core concept resurfaced in new ways and applications (the very existence of this fact proved his thinking wrong) but he eventually came to this conclusion by saying:
metalmurphy said:
Company ABC didn't support it properly? technology X now is a drastic change? it was huge? people weren't as tech savy as they are now?
Click to expand...

So, he went from saying: failed technology X has existed for N years so therefore technology X will not be successful in a new application.

to

failed technology X has existed for N years but technology X can be successful in a new application if supported properly and if people are ready to embrace it.
 
I bet clapping twice in a row to turn on/off a light is too much for people in this thread, who prefer to stand up and flick a wall switch.
 
RSTEIN said:
So, he went from saying: failed technology X has existed for N years so therefore technology X will not be successful in a new application.

to

failed technology X has existed for N years but technology X can be successful in a new application if supported properly and if people are ready to embrace it.
Click to expand...
Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say failed technology X, as in any technology. I said SPECIFICALLY voice recognition. Specially when it's used to replace something as easy as pressing a button and specially when nothing about it has drastically changed. It just works "better".

How hard is that to understand?

Is everything apples to apples in your world?
 
Diablohead said:
I bet clapping twice in a row to turn on/off a light is too much for people in this thread, who prefer to stand up and flick a wall switch.
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From the little we have seen so far, I think that Natal can be best summed up as "solving the wrong problem".
 
I for one has always wanted tv's to be connected to the Internet and have gestures through a camera. We're slowly getting there. I already have the Internet (with widgets) on my HDTV, now I just need these gestures and 3D.

Off-topic, but can someone reply to me in a pm (so this thread won't go further off-topic), as to where I can buy a system that allows me to turn on/off my lights with claps? (beside the clapper).
 
daycru said:
Two screens? It'll never work.
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Although it's too early to say for certain, the main difference between the DS and Natal is that whereas the former took active steps to solve a problem relevant to many non-gamers, the latter conceivably doesn't.
 
... the other day i was at a friends house, he had a new apple macbook and i thought to myself "wow i want this too" ... after playing around with it for 5min. i said to myself " ahh fuck it im to old to start all over again with this os shit"

so- as long as i can keep my buttons im happy... if they force stuff like this on my next-gen tv/console i think ill not bother...

yeah im a lazy fuck
 
i dont think this will use voice commands for everything but more to activate say "natal, GUIDE" then you start using gestures for everything else. Those thinking swiping wont replace pressing buttons and its not as easy as pressing buttons, look at the jump from regular cell phones to touch screen phones. i couldn't imagine going back to web browsing or searching thru contacts or info having to constantly press buttons until my thumb hurt. swiping and tapping the screen is far easier.
 
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