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Microsoft will "aggressively challenge" any gov't attempt to spy through Kinect

Bedlam

Member
What MS' comments are suggesting to me is that it's indeed technically possible to collect this data.

And lol @ "Absent a new law...," because they know there will be one when the NSA comes asking for data one day.

Are Microsoft trying to convince me that they are fighting the government for consumer rights??
If they fought for us secretly, you know, in the shades, they must've lost every single battle. Poor MS. :(
 

madmackem

Member
What MS' comments are suggesting to me is that it's indeed technically possible to collect this data.

And lol @ "Absent a new law...," because they know there will be one when the NSA comes asking for data one day.

Yeah thats how i read it as well, they are pretty much saying it can be done. It feels like their tasteless killer instinct e3 stage demo, except where are the ones being told "let it happen, it will be over soon".
 

Krilekk

Banned
Nope meant this

Because it's not until Kinect 3.0 that kinect can see through walls and alert the police of your activities/accidents that take place outside of the living room :p

That is possible today thanks to WLAN sniffing. It was proven some weeks ago, basically one can tell by the WLAN reception where somebody is standing or moving. Oh and you know who stores all your WLAN passwords unwncrypted on their servers? Google. Who has unrestricted access to Google's servers? The NSA. They don't need Kinect, they can already watch your every move without actually having to watch you.
 
Getting murdered by Sony on price. General public worried its a spying device.

I hope MS is starting to see mandatory Kinect isnt worth it. I fully expect a dramatically cheaper Kinect-less Xbone by next E3
 

Alx

Member
What MS' comments are suggesting to me is that it's indeed technically possible to collect this data.

Of course it's technically possible, why wouldn't it be ?

And lol @ "Absent a new law...," because they know there will be one when the NSA comes asking for data one day.

Maybe you shouldn't laugh at your country writing such shitty laws, and start doing something about that.
 

seady

Member
What does it matter if they really challenge the gov?

Even if Microsoft and the Government come out to say "no we are not spying", the chance of it being true is next to 0%.
 

Bedlam

Member
Maybe you shouldn't laugh at your country writing such shitty laws, and start doing something about that.
What has Germany to do with any of this? I'm laughing at another country's shitty laws here (that unfortunately affect us too).
 

Alx

Member
What has Germany to do with any of this?

;)

Then we should make sure that no foreign law can allow anybody to start spying on us Europeans. ;) (which I suppose is already the case, but enforcing international laws is sometimes difficult with the US).

So this pretty much confirms that Kinect will be of use for the NSA. Even if it's just for Skype...

If it's "just for Skype", then it has nothing to do with kinect. Or you could say that the PSEye and the Vita are of use for the NSA too. The truth is that Skype is of use for the NSA.
 

CPS2

Member
This is going to end up as "oh we meant we won't give the nsa a live feed of your living room. Of course we give them access to the metadata tho, including who you are (via facial recognition), where you are and when, who you're associating with, your heart rate, height, eye colour, and everything you've ever said, near a kinect, converted into text. Oh and access to an archive of actual video. But we will never let them spy of you with live video! Rest assured."
 

Alx

Member
This is going to end up as "oh we meant we won't give the nsa a live feed of your living room. Of course we give them access to the metadata tho, including

  • "who you are (via facial recognition)" : they know it thanks to your live account, no need for a camera.
  • "where you are" : you're in your living room (duh)
  • " and when" : they know it through your connection log, no need for a camera
  • ", who you're associating with" : there's no way they can identify other people... unless you're interacting through social networks. No need for a camera.
  • ", your heart rate, height, eye colour, " : completely useless information
  • "and everything you've ever said, near a kinect, converted into text." : that is private information indeed, and legally protected the same way your image is.
 

Vagabundo

Member
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daniels

Member
OH you mean like Skype or outlook.com and probably every single online thing you provide?
Yeah thanks Microsoft i am good without xbox one or kinect :) i just have a hard time believing if your boss the NSA/stasi2.0 wants something you can say no ;)
 
If you'll give me one more chance
I swear that I will never lie to you again
Because now I see the destructive power of a lie
They're stronger than truth
I can't believe I ever hurt you
I swear
I will never to you lie again, please
Just give me one more chance
I will never lie to you again
I swear
That I will never tell a lie
I will never tell a lie
No, no

hqdefault.jpg


Ha ha ha ha ha hah haa haa haa haaa
Sucker
Sucker!
Oh, sucker
I am a liar
Yeah, I am a liar
Rollins best album by far!
This song also fits the subject.

http://youtu.be/louQ7s1ZkGU
 

CPS2

Member
"who you are (via facial recognition)" : they know it thanks to your live account, no need for a camera.
It's a lot easier to just make a random email address and sign up to live under a random username and be completely anonymous, using live subscription cards and point cards, than it would be if they force facial recognition, which is essentially a signature that identifies you, like a finger print.
"where you are" : you're in your living room (duh)
" and when" : they know it through your connection log, no need for a camera
", who you're associating with" : there's no way they can identify other people... unless you're interacting through social networks. No need for a camera.
Once they've established who you, and all the other people near a kinect are, they can estimate your location via an IP address, but they know who you're physically in the room with, which seems like it'd be pretty useful information to the NSA right? As in knowing who associates with individuals they're putting under surveillance, so that they can also be put under surveillance? Cos that's what we're talking about right?
", your heart rate, height, eye colour, " : completely useless information
Except... that's your identity. Don't the authorities usually include height and eye colour when describing who they're looking for?
"and everything you've ever said, near a kinect, converted into text." : that is private information indeed, and legally protected the same way your image is.
Until it becomes part of the metadata and scanned for key words, so they can filter out who they should put under surveillance.
 

Chobel

Member
  • "who you are (via facial recognition)" : they know it thanks to your live account, no need for a camera.
  • "where you are" : you're in your living room (duh)
  • " and when" : they know it through your connection log, no need for a camera
  • ", who you're associating with" : there's no way they can identify other people... unless you're interacting through social networks. No need for a camera.
  • ", your heart rate, height, eye colour, " : completely useless information
  • "and everything you've ever said, near a kinect, converted into text." : that is private information indeed, and legally protected the same way your image is.
1) Many people don't put their personal picture in their account.
2) Don't need kinect.
3) No argue there.
4) This one is tricky but if they do indeed facial recognition, they can recognize your friends by comparing to the big database (seems impossible).
5) For now yes.
6) I also assumed so until I read this
 
That is possible today thanks to WLAN sniffing. It was proven some weeks ago, basically one can tell by the WLAN reception where somebody is standing or moving. Oh and you know who stores all your WLAN passwords unwncrypted on their servers? Google. Who has unrestricted access to Google's servers? The NSA. They don't need Kinect, they can already watch your every move without actually having to watch you.

Basically. I feel like I should be shouting to you, this thing's completely off the rails.
 

Alx

Member
1) Many people don't put their personal picture in their account.

They don't have to register their own face to their account either. And in the end, you don't really need a personal picture to identify someone. The wanted information is the ID, not the face.
 
Its real simple no mandatory kinect all fears will be gone.
Offer great kinect options if you really believe in the product and people will buy it.
Voice command and hand menu swiping aren't doing it for me not into motion gaming or whatever its called that gimmick has been and should stay death until VR stuff matures and i have a way to do 360 movement on one place.
 

Alx

Member
So this means it is possible to spy using Kinect then? Nice. No thanks.

It's possible to spy on you through any device if you're actively trying to do by adding the right access and software. Works for any connected sensor in the world : a phone, a PC/Mac/whatever, a public camera, a credit card terminal, a turnstile in the subway...
What MS says is they won't do it, even if asked. You can believe them or not, but it shouldn't be a surprise that it is possible.
 

dose

Member
It's possible to spy on you through any device if you're actively trying to do by adding the right access and software. Works for any connected sensor in the world : a phone, a PC/Mac/whatever, a public camera, a credit card terminal, a turnstile in the subway...
What MS says is they won't do it, even if asked. You can believe them or not, but it shouldn't be a surprise that it is possible.
Sure, but there were people on here denying that It could be done. Now MS have confirmed it.
 

Alx

Member
I suppose those people are denying that there will be software and "backdoors" installed on the console to make it possible (which is more or less the same thing MS says when they say they're not spying nor won't do it).
I also saw some people claim that live spying through a camera would be easily detected through bandwidth consumption, which is probably true.
 
well this just solidified my resolve to not get this console unless there is a kinectless SKU, I don't care if it's 'integral' as long as its there I'm not.
 

CPS2

Member
Its not the live spying through a camera that you should be worried about, its everything else that this thing collects (ie look at all the metadata collected by phones, and think about what kind of data they can get from kinect). Its a camera that has to point at you and recognise you in order for the console to function properly, so its not exactly the same as a phone either.

I honestly think you'd be stupid to want this thing in your house. Anyone who's interested in buying this thing should be asking why they can't get one without the camera.
 

Alx

Member
It doesn't have to recognize you to function properly. I even doubt it has to "see" you for the console to function properly.
 
I suppose those people are denying that there will be software and "backdoors" installed on the console to make it possible (which is more or less the same thing MS says when they say they're not spying nor won't do it).
I also saw some people claim that live spying through a camera would be easily detected through bandwidth consumption, which is probably true.

The same "backdoors" are available on your Mac, PC, phone, and have been for years. Arpanet was invented by the Department of Defense. You're already a suspect, by your logic.

There's no NSA agent sitting at a desk waiting for "Alx" to play Dance Central. Just refrain from giving law enforcement agencies probable cause to access your home devices and you should be fine.
 

Jac_Solar

Member
I suppose those people are denying that there will be software and "backdoors" installed on the console to make it possible (which is more or less the same thing MS says when they say they're not spying nor won't do it).
I also saw some people claim that live spying through a camera would be easily detected through bandwidth consumption, which is probably true.

What if the Xbox One is set to gather, and convert information to a simplistic txt format that can be read by a program at Microsoft, and constantly stream it, or send 0.001kb parts (To form a whole part at Microsoft.) everytime it pings the server? There are so many ways for Microsoft to do this.

The only reasons I can think of why Microsoft won't offer an Xbox One without a Kinect are; by selling the Kinect with the Xbox One, they will make a profit on every unit sold, or make more money than they could by simply selling the Xbox One. Or, they have a deal with the NSA, and can't remove it.
 

Snubbers

Member
So this means it is possible to spy using Kinect then? Nice. No thanks.

Anything is technically possible if you apply FUD logic to things.

The practicality is that anything that flows from your house to any 'server' , so your XBL/PSN stuff, Skype, facebook, google plus from any of your devices (phones/laptops/psvita/kinect/whatever) should be considered eaves droppable by the NSA if we assume the worst extent of PRISM et al..

You have to go real FUD on things to think that they'll be live video and audio streaming, or even live audio/video analysis done locally just for surveillance purposes that generates metadata to be sent from the kinect.

Obviously if just the mere sight of Kinect is too over bearing for you for any reason, then I absolutely agree that you should never buy an XB1, but at least realise that if you truly are worried about privacy, it would be foolish to not apply identical logic to all these other forms of potential privacy invasion with all your 'tech'..

What if the Xbox One is set to gather, and convert information to a simplistic txt format that can be read by a program at Microsoft, and constantly stream it, or send 0.001kb parts (To form a whole part at Microsoft.) everytime it pings the server? There are so many ways for Microsoft to do this.
As I said, anything is technically feasible, but come on, if you think the NSA are forcing manufacturers down this road, as I've said a few times, Kinect which will take such a massively long time to get any sizeable userbase is ridiculously impractical.. A mobile phone that is carried on the person, and vastly more prevalent would be obviously a much better target by the NSA, then your laptop, etc..

I don't know if people are intentionally spreading FUD or not...
 

Alx

Member
The only reasons I can think of why Microsoft won't offer an Xbox One without a Kinect are; by selling the Kinect with the Xbox One, they will make a profit on every unit sold, or make more money than they could by simply selling the Xbox One. Or, they have a deal with the NSA, and can't remove it.

Or they decided it was a defining feature of their product that will help them differentiate from the competition, especially if it becomes a new standard.
And fearing some data leak to the NSA is one thing, but thinking that the NSA is the first motivation for that sensor to be a requirement is just crazy. The NSA hasn't bought Microsoft yet, and there's no way they could have such a strong influence on their strategy for a rather important product for them, on a multi-billion market.
 

kmax

Member
You know, it's kind of scary how all the evidence is pointing out that spying is something Microsoft is aiding the NSA in doing. As a matter of fact, not only are Microsoft in the PRISM program, they were the first company to sign up with the governments surveillance program. The fact that they're already involved with such activities is frightening in it of itself, and speaks volume of what they think of their consumers integrity.

With the revelation of the shady activities they're assisting the NSA with, and the fact that XBOne requires a mandatory Kinect to even function just takes it all to a whole other level. Not only were the Kinect designed to monitor for security threats (Spy on you), but it was also designed to bring in ad-revenue. They want to know who you are, what you do, what you like etc so they can collect information on you. It's disgusting.

So what do Microsoft have to say about all of this? They released a statement last month, and they're basically saying that they won't provide collected customer data voluntarily, but only if they're legally required to. That's a nice way to try to avert the blame. What they fail to mention in that statement is that PRISM falls under that requirement

Microsoft could take the high road on this and show that their costumers integrity is important to them by dropping the mandatory Kinect. Of course, they won't though, since that would defeat the purpose of the vision they had set out with the console, and since they're in line with whatever surveillance schemes the government's pulling on the general public.

What a farce.
 

Nibiru

Banned
"Aggressively challenge"=At least let me turn my back before you do it >.<

Kinect will be used by the NSA. There is a reason it was made mandatory and it wasn't so you could tell it to turn on.
 
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