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From what I remember MS was one of the very first to fold for the NSA. Apple was one of the last. I'd rather not have a kinect camera in my house.
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Microsoft will "aggressively challenge" any gov't attempt to spy through Kinect
- Thread starter shinobi602
- Start date
infiniteheteroskdasticity
Member
Of all the issues people have with the Xbox One (some of which are completely legitimate) this is the one that makes the least sense to me. It is obvious Microsoft will go above and beyond its way to ensure that Kinect is not abused without permission. This is not because I trust them to do the right thing for their customers (I do not) but because I trust them to do the right thing for themselves. Any detected use of Kinect to 'spy' on people would instantly blow up into a massive mainstream media story that would destroy the Xbox division for ever and have massive financial implications for Microsoft as a whole. Beyond potentially crippling lawsuits and fines, it would have very real and damaging consequences on the company's financial status because it would raise questions about the trust people place in Windows, Office and all the other things Microsoft makes most of its money on. There is absolutely no way Microsoft or any other large publicly traded company would knowingly take this sort of risk.
Funny how people keep overlooking this and it's a major point.
You can turn off Kinect! Too bad every single game will have Kinect features.
Microsoft already broke their own encryption for web-outlook so that NSA would be able to spy. Outlook - which is also a part of Microsoft Office. And Microsoft is dependant on businesses buying their Office.
If they already risk their business in such case, why would you assume that the success of a videogame console would be more important to them? It seems they don't give a shit about their image and about their customers.
Louis Cyphre
Banned
Why is the camera being on a problem? Every time I turn my PS3 on the blue light for my Eye camera comes on as well and my PS3 is always connected online. So?
Not one person has told me why I should be worried.
CambriaRising
Member
You should be worried because this company has severely broken the trust of its consumers by serving up their privacy on a silver platter without anyone knowing. If you have the same concerns about Sony, unplug your pseye. You have no such option if you want an Xbone.
Doctor_Thomas
Member
If paying for a potential surveillance system to be used on yourself doesn't have you worried then I'm not sure what will
3rdamention
Member
You can unplug your PSEye, throw it in a drawer and your PS3 will still work. Not the case with the Xbone and Kinect.
Sony isn't signed up with Prism. But it doesn't really matter what people say. You've made up your mind to aggressively defend all things MS. Why should anyone bother attempting to tell you why you should be worried when you refuse to be worried about anything from this company.
infiniteheteroskdasticity
Member
Spying via email intercepts has a precedent. The NSA has been using it for some time since 9/11 because we the people (via congress) gave them the authority to do it. Google and Yahoo also do the same thing as Microsoft. Its only for identified specific individuals (approved via a court) or via anonymized metadata that s mined for patterns. There's nothing wrong with this and it keeps us safe.
Spying via captured video and audio from personal devices on a large scale is unprecedented. There's no way the NSA could legitimately expect all video and audio streams from everybody's Kinect. This is not going to happen. What could happen is targeted surveillance of court sanctioned individuals using Kinect and other cameras. I have no problem with this whatsoever.
Nope.
They actually started spying at least 7 months before 9/11.
http://digitaljournal.com/article/352455
And they actually broke the encryption of their outlook chat. It wasn't about emails (that was a given anyway), it was about their "encrypted"[tm] web chat.
I have never used Skype. I guess Skype is just web e-mail, right?
There's no way the NSA could legitimately capture all internet traffic. They will also never get access to all sorts of web mail providers. This is just a stupid conspiracy and not going to happen ever.
Louis Cyphre
Banned
Sure I do, I can adjust the privacy settings or unplug the Xbox One from the power outlet when not in use. For years I never had an issue with my PS3 always connected or the PSEye always being connected.
What exactly am I supposed to be doing that I need to worry about?
You also don't have to always be connected online with the Xbox One since they retracted their original plans, right? So how exactly is it going to monitor me if there is no internet connection? I have no reason to disconnect my PSEye because there is nothing for me to worry about.
Why do you feel the need to dramatize? How do you know I defend everything MS does, we are talking about the KInect sensor and what impact if any it will have on those who use it and what concerns are actually relevant and not just hyperbole.
Doctor_Thomas
Member
If you're not doing anything wrong, then why do you accept being spied on?
quickwhips
Member
People forgive and forget Sonys rootkit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal
People will forget NSA thing in another 6 years when this generation is over.
Louis Cyphre
Banned
Why do you accept the terms for Xbox Live if you don't plan on doing anything wrong? Why are you ignoring the fact you can adjust the privacy settings for the Kinect sensor? How is it going to spy on me if it's not connected to the Internet?
The impact is that it will affect sales because there will be a subsection of potential consumers that do not wish to have camera and microphone features in their living room. It's that simple. We can go back and forth where many posters here feel that it is relevant and you and others will continue to come back to have a defense because you feel that it is hyperbole. That's been the discussion this entire time, back and forth between people who will not buy an XBO because of this feature and people who will still get one no matter what.
So really they should just close the thread at this point because it's nothing but back and forth and no forward progress because both sides are entrenched into their decision.
Red Liquorice
Member
@ MS.
ebullientprism
Member
"holding back technology and human advancement with your unreasonable paranoia"
Holy shit. I think this is my favorite post in the thread.
It's not "if they want to" when it would require new laws: "Absent a new law, we dont believe the government has the legal authority to compel us or any other company that makes products with cameras and microphones to start collecting voice and video data".
If the government had that authority, the Xbox would be the least of your worries. There are hundreds of millions if not billions of notebooks, tablets, and phones out there that could be used for spying just as well as an Xbox.
Thank goodness. For a second I thought you were an adult.
Louis Cyphre
Banned
I am all for civil discussions but I have yet heard one reason why I should be worried. That is not to dismiss anybody who may have concerns. Some people don't like Google tracking the sites you visit for example, some feel Kinect could track your habits and lead to advertising or pop-ups. I just find it odd how some go right to the worst case scenario and think that will apply to everyone who may use it.
What's with the insults? If you are offended I don't have any issue with the Kinect sensor being built in with the Xbox One that is your problem, not mine.
Hoho for breakfast
Member
This is just MS saying what they believe, not necessarily what is reality. There could already be secret laws which allow the government to basically do whatever the hell they want. What I personally believe is that the NSA will pretty clearly do what they please with or without the authority. If they don't have the authority they will make new laws or break existing laws to get what they want.
And again with changing the subject to other devices. Yeah, they're bad too. We know. There's many differences though you have to think about (if you're even willing to). We already own some of these devices like cell phones and laptops and such. We aren't going to throw them away now that we already have them. We'll just do what we can to minimize the impact. It may not be the best solution, but it's obviously one people are putting up with for the time being.
That differs from the Kinect 2 in that we do not yet own it. We have the chance and the knowledge now to say no to that before it's in our hands. If we found this stuff out 2 years into the Kinect 2.0's life, we'd still be pissed but most would still not just get up and throw away their $500 console over it.
KoopaTheCasual
Junior Member
...Can people please stop using the word paranoia, when they clearly have no idea what it actually means? I'm sorry, I have no stake in this whole privacy discussion, but the continued misuse of this simple word, as an ad hominem is beyond annoying.
For future reference:
para·noia noun \ˌper-ə-ˈnȯi-ə, ˌpa-rə-\
1: a psychosis characterized by systematized delusions of persecution or grandeur usually without hallucinations
2: a tendency on the part of an individual or group toward excessive or irrational suspiciousness and distrustfulness of others
You can't call someone paranoid, and then in the very next sentence admit that there's a precedent for their fears. It just makes you look like you have no idea what the word means. Sorry for interrupting. Carry on.
The rootkit scandal was about Music CD's.
What's going on with the NSA situation is far, far different from the rootkit scandal. People aren't going to easily forget about this crap as long as this continues to happen.
They can collect video from Skype though right? What's the difference?
It clearly states voice and video data on that slide.
Also, the law states they can collect data without a warrant if the location of the person is outside of the US or a US citizen speaking to someone who is outside of the US. If they do collect data inadvertently that originates purely from inside of the country, there are also concessions in the law that protects them. When collecting large pools of data they claim it is impossible to filter domestic from non-domestic. Basically that means a large amount of data is being collected from US citizens anyway. They are protected as long as they claim the data was collected inadvertently.
Basically, in a number of cases they do not need to get a court order at all.
WrenchNinja
Member
If I went through your post history, would I find you defending the drm?
This is the issue. You welcome dystopia. Most people don't.
Have you read 1984? Any of Orwell's books? Do you even fully understand what a dystopia is? Do you understand why other people might not feel quite as apathetic about it as you do?
We are moving closer and closer to a surveillance state. This is a fact. For fucks sake man, we're having a discussion about civil rights and how valuable privacy is because of what a new video games console is capable of doing.
Can you at least concede that they should offer us the opportunity to unplug it when it's disabled? Them saying the features can be turned off, which you quoted and bolded earlier, doesn't mean anything when they've also said it can still be collecting anonymous data. This thread exists because they've indirectly confirmed that spying on people utilizing Kinect is possible.
This is not okay.
There's been a lot of "if you've got nothing to hide, you shouldn't be worried" talk. To anyone saying that, are you atheist? Are you aware of what large groups of people would like to do to you? Are you gay or have any gay friends? Do you smoke weed? Is there a chance you'd ever rally against anything? e.g. the occupy movement?
Not trying to make anyone worried, but opening yourself up to surveillance voluntarily gives them all the tools they need, before its decided that what you're doing or thinking is wrong. Pretty much throwing away your freedom because you're comfortable with how things are right now.
Not trying to make anyone worried, but opening yourself up to surveillance voluntarily gives them all the tools they need, before its decided that what you're doing or thinking is wrong. Pretty much throwing away your freedom because you're comfortable with how things are right now.
AcceptableGhost
Member
i just dont want to use kinect
its a waste of space beyond these privacy concerns
why the fuck would you make a camera mandatory for a consumer entertainment device?
its a waste of space beyond these privacy concerns
why the fuck would you make a camera mandatory for a consumer entertainment device?
They can collect video from Skype though right? What's the difference?
It clearly states voice and video data on that slide.
Also, the law states they can collect data without a warrant if the location of the person is outside of the US or a US citizen speaking to someone who is outside of the US. If they do collect data inadvertently that originates purely from inside of the country, there are also concessions in the law that protects them. When collecting large pools of data they claim it is impossible to filter domestic from non-domestic. Basically that means a large amount of data is being collected from US citizens anyway. They are protected as long as they claim the data was collected inadvertently.
Basically, in a number of cases they do not need to get a court order at all.
I like how Youtube is on their and no one is complaining. Youtube by default means everything Google.
That's how I read it. They'll perhaps voice their reservations but give in. Tye whole prism thing shows us the government gets what they want when it comes to supposed national security.
Yeah so basically a large amount of the US population could potentially be a suspect anyway. lol
Also, about collecting data without a warrant:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/11/microsoft-nsa-collaboration-user-data
This article is about how the NSA can use US data without a warrant under certain circumstances:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/20/fisa-court-nsa-without-warrant
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
and facebook (chat). Or your google mail and so forth.
That said, it's inexcusable in all aspects. But having the ability on a gaming console just put the ridiculous nature of it in the spotlight.
sleeping_dragon
Banned
Wow. MS had sunk to another low. Smh.
This is an excellent point. Let me bring up the S.M.I.S.C. It was Darpa that commissioned that, not the NSA, but the idea is the same. It was shortly after the Arab Spring that the SMISC was commissioned, around June-July 2011.
Here's an excerpt from the PDF outlining the program.
That's related to social media, obviously, but it's easy enough to extrapolate the kind of "valuable" and "integral" data that Kinect 2.0 could potentially give. It wouldn't even take an enormous sample size either, the number of pre-orders avialable at launch would be more than enough to get the ball rolling.
Louis Cyphre
Banned
Yes and no. There were some benefits and I was lenient of the always online since my systems are always connected. I have always felt physical medium has far more freedom and have said MS did a poor job explaining it and the benefits of what they wanted to do with the Xbox One. So if you want to paint me as some sort of Xbot that's not really the case. I just don't see the big deal about Kinect and all the spying issues to be relevant to how I will use the Xbox One.
What it is capable of doing and what it will do are two different things. You will always have two polar opposites of extremes. Those who will say there is no need to worry about anything and those who feel we need to worry about everything. I like to be somewhere in the middle. I for example welcome cameras in public. They could be used to help in crime cases for example. Others believe that is an invasion of your privacy. That is just one example of two different views. Should a camera be allowed in a public washroom? No.
I can unplug the Xbox One when I am not using it if I am really worried. So I do have some control. I also have control of privacy settings. The Xbox One also doesn't require an internet connection any longer to function, just a one time setup. So how is it monitoring and spying while not receiving an online connection? But again what it is that people are worried about, Is this just the principle or is it deeper than that?
This is the privacy policy on Neogaf,
Information Collected:
NeoGAF's server automatically records information when you visit our website, including your IP address and browser used. Additionally, at the time of registration, we retain data on your email address and any other information that you choose to denote in your profile. We also use cookies to store your account information for a convenient browsing experience.
Does that worry you as well?
louis cyphre, are you pulling everybody's leg here?
if you are pro drm and pro always kinect, then this can only make you one thing (and not an xbot): a microsoft employee or someone in a parallel job description.
unplugging the entire system from power plug everytime you finish using it is not convenient for normal people.
much easier to disconnect the kinect and throw it somewhere until YOU decide you want to use it.
and you compare microsoft and kinect to gaf cookies and email addresses? LOL
if you are pro drm and pro always kinect, then this can only make you one thing (and not an xbot): a microsoft employee or someone in a parallel job description.
unplugging the entire system from power plug everytime you finish using it is not convenient for normal people.
much easier to disconnect the kinect and throw it somewhere until YOU decide you want to use it.
and you compare microsoft and kinect to gaf cookies and email addresses? LOL
You should be unplugging your entire system when not in use anyways.Like all electronics.
nonsense. that's not a common practice. you unplug your tv/ projector, cable box, accessories every time? I imagine most folks, for the past 100 years just shut off the power. everything is hooked up to surge protectors generally.
I could imagine everyone going to their electronic closet and unplugging receivers and switches every day would be quite laborious.
maybe not nonsense, but sheesh.
blurredvision
Member
I hate this assumption. It's unreasonable. Some of us just don't think the Kinect sitting there on is something to worry about.
D
Deleted member 13876
Unconfirmed Member
To give you an understanding of how many people 3 hops in a network is I just checked my Linkedin profile. A 100+ connections gives me access to about 3 million people. So I have 100+ connection, my connections each have 100+ on average as well, as do the friends of my connection and this results in a number in the millions. Do I actually know 0.0004% of those people? Hell no, nor will I ever.
Louis Cyphre
Banned
You're right, it's not normal to have to unplug your system every time you are not using it. That's why I leave my PSEye connected and have my game systems always connected to the internet. I guess unlike some I don't feel it to be an issue. I understand some of the concerns with how Kinect will behave and needs to be connected to the system but i don't feel it to be a concern. At least not for me.
I have nothing further to add and it seems as though some are starting to get annoyed with my responses to the point of being hostile, so I will simply stop posting in this thread.
No I shouldn't, and definitely I shouldn't buy something that will make me think about things like these.
Either make it convenient for me, or let somebody else buy it.
Also, I owe you an answer or your previous comment about your false "positives"
given that microsoft has the voice recognition program libraries done => the work is done and the same methods and calls can be used by any sound input device (ie -> headset)
Bringing other devices into the conversation is not changing the subject. There aren't many(any?) smartphones, tablets or laptops released today without a front facing camera. The kinect requirement for the X1 is analogous to the cameras I mentioned in those other devices. I can't buy a modern apple mobile device, for example, without the front facing camera(or mic). The relevance of these devices in this discussion is that they have been embraced by the public at large.
If prism is the primary concern, then the connected devices we already own are spying on us right now. No one I know owns an X1 yet. Millions own Apple, Samsung, Google, Microsoft and Amazon devices that have front facing cameras, microphones and they are always connected. This entire discussion is moot because everyone involved in it had to be connected to the internet.
So the point I'm getting at is that, in order for us to ensure that we are not being spied on, we have to disconnect from the web and discard our digital devices. If people aren't willing to do that, then why should they single out the X1?
And I hate this line of thought. Do you care nothing about your privacy? Do you care nothing about those who do? Do you have parents who are concerned by it? Siblings? Friends? Neighbors?
There are a lot of forms of privacy. Some we give up without realizing it. Some we are very much aware of losing when the time comes.
What is unreasonable is not recognizing that your lack of concern for your own privacy doesn't mean that you should stop being aware of others who are still concerned, and of the snowball effect that giving up each piece of it brings.
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