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Middle-Earth: Shadow of War trailer (WB/Monolith, PC/XB1/PS4, 8/22), gameplay Mar 8th

Yep like I said it's never said there is no black people in Gondor.

It's likely just like Medieval Europe was, there were some just a very small portion of the population. Minas Tirith is a massive city so it's not a stretch at all to think traders from other lands would settle there

I suppose putting it another way, it's like seeing a human wandering through or living in the Shire. It's not impossible by the most fundamental aspect that you know the tall folk exist, and nothing strictly stops them from being there, but it would certainly be unusual.
 

OldRoutes

Member
It looks like PS4 has the marketing rights on this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MAGs7rf8jQ

maxresdefault.jpg

? https://youtu.be/Ulf0Lo3dY4A
 

Skux

Member
Finally, the only Asian in Middle-earth has some diverse company.

I'm looking forward to this. I really enjoyed the first game but there were some obvious shortcomings - it felt more like a template for a game rather than a fully fleshed out one.

Environment diversity would be the big one. I hope they push the Nemesis system and focus on crazy emergent gameplay opportunities - those were the most fun parts of the original.
 
Sauron comes back and sees an orc with a douchey haircut.

"do you know whose dog you just killed? It wasnt just anybodys dog. It was the dog of... The Ranger"

*scene of the ranger breaking the floor to find the ring*

"the world's most elite and cheapest orc killing motherfucker. And you just pissed him off"

"b-but site I didn't know"

"it doesn't matter now. Run along Dush"

#dead
 

LionPride

Banned
In a fictional world, regardless of what it's based on, there can be diversity in terms of skin color seeing as there is no real world equivalent.
 

Slayven

Member
In a universe that was literally song into existence, with elves, hobbits, fire demons, magic rings, and giant eagles. One Black dude breaks the suspension of disbelie
 

Combichristoffersen

Combovers don't work when there is no hair
I want that statue.

But I do not want to buy this game at full price.

Gah :(

In a universe that was literally song into existence, with elves, hobbits, fire demons, magic rings, and giant eagles. One Black dude breaks the suspension of disbelie

#noblackpeopleinmiddleearth :p

As has been noted above, it's never said there weren't black people in Gondor. Although I guess the majority of black people in ME lived in Harad and Umbar.
 

Sagroth

Member
So the trailer to to me suggests that Celebrimbor being stripped away is going to be the mechanism that resets your skills and abilities at the start of the game, and the ring of power is going to be the new leveling system for at least most of the game(I'm also assuming we will get plot to the effect of the ring corrupting Talion but he cannot remove it since without the wraith the ring is all that keeps him alive).
 
So the trailer to to me suggests that Celebrimbor being stripped away is going to be the mechanism that resets your skills and abilities at the start of the game, and the ring of power is going to be the new leveling system for at least most of the game(I'm also assuming we will get plot to the effect of the ring corrupting Talion but he cannot remove it since without the wraith the ring is all that keeps him alive).

Ooooh, that would be an interesting angle. Plus, if they had some self-awareness about the criticisms that the previous games themes weren't necessarily very in line with Tolkien, this could allow for a way to address that. In the previous game, Talion could potentially be excused for all the shit he did by the possibility that it was the wraith corrupting him. Now however, it would all be on him, and while he would have rational enough motivation not to remove the ring - not wanting to die before the job is done - he may also be excusing himself from, you know, literally becoming as terrible as Sauron because he made his own One Ring.
 

a916

Member
Looks really cool, excited for it.

The death eaters effect was a little too Harry Potter though for my liking and less like LOTR. (because they are definitely channelling Peter Jackson with this)
 
I'm betting Celebimbo will be the final boss. Even in the first game, he seemed a little 'gone mad with lust for power that was denied to him'.

I could see Celebilbo seperating from Talion and forcing him to fight all the orcs he branded.
 

SargerusBR

I love Pokken!
So the trailer to to me suggests that Celebrimbor being stripped away is going to be the mechanism that resets your skills and abilities at the start of the game, and the ring of power is going to be the new leveling system for at least most of the game(I'm also assuming we will get plot to the effect of the ring corrupting Talion but he cannot remove it since without the wraith the ring is all that keeps him alive).

Good thinking, i will add in that Sauron possibly used Celebrimbor spirit to regain his physical form.
 

Nudull

Banned
I'm betting Celebimbo will be the final boss. Even in the first game, he seemed a little 'gone mad with lust for power that was denied to him'.

I could see Celebilbo seperating from Talion and forcing him to fight all the orcs he branded.

I mean,
the first game was basically Spec Ops: The Line on Middle-Earth.
 

E-flux

Member
In a universe that was literally song into existence, with elves, hobbits, fire demons, magic rings, and giant eagles. One Black dude breaks the suspension of disbelie

Yes because decades of existing works had no black people in them, to my knowledge at least. Sure it would make sense in our world and from what we have read about the other easterlings that there would be black guys but the dude in the trailer stands out like an unicorn thanks to that.

And if you remember when the movies came out so many people bitched about the eagles and how they didn't make sense at all too.
 

Skilletor

Member
Yes because decades of existing works had no black people in them, to my knowledge at least. Sure it would make sense in our world and from what we have read about the other easterlings that there would be black guys but the dude in the trailer stands out like an unicorn thanks to that.

And if you remember when the movies came out so many people bitched about the eagles and how they didn't make sense at all too.

lol

Fuck this. Dragons are fine, but oh no, not a black dude.
 

Loxley

Member
If people are geuinely curious about learning more about race in Middle-earth - I highly recommend this thread created by GAF's former* Tolkien scholar Edmond Dantes:

The following is something that invariably comes up when discussing Tolkien with non-readers/fans/experts; racism.

Spirit of the times? That Tolkien was not in any way racist? That he was a racist? That he actually was rather progressive? The mythology for England/Northern Europe justification/excuse?

Where do you stand on this rather controversial discussion point?

I've previously written that Tolkien created a world where darkness exerts a gravitational force to which every race and individual is susceptible. What we must do is consider how race works as a literary device for investigating this important issue. Race operates analogously to character types in many medieval works. This is something that aided Tolkien when writing to isolate certain characteristics for scrutiny and it also allowed him to play out general predispositions against individual choices, investigating the interplay of determinism and free will (fundamental aspects of the mythos). Of course the idea that racial predispositions can work as literary themes presents interesting problems. Let us examine some of the races. Tolkien wrote that Dwarves reminded him of Jews and he even employed Semitic phonemes in constructing their language. This may be construed as anti-Semitism, but Tolkien explicitly stated that this comparison was rooted in the experience of exile; Jews and Dwarves alike as essentially diasporic, simultaneously at home and foreign. It was a fascination for him, the idea of Dwarves in exile, laboring through an unwelcoming world against which their secrecy is a defense; driven from or attempting to return to ancestral homes. Further, when asked by a German firm in 1938 asking if he was of Aryan origin he wholly dismissed this; ”I have many Jewish friends, and should regret giving any colour to the notion that I subscribed to the wholly pernicious and unscientific race-doctrine." – Letter #29.

Elves incite explorations of artistic creativity and the fragility of art in a changing world. The Huorns and Ents speak for nature against the depredations of the other races and are certainly a fitting nemesis for often discussed iron fist of industrialisation. Men are the most variable of Tolkien's races and through them he investigates weakness, love and mortality. There is no moral polarisation of men in Middle-earth, not only are many Numenoreans corruptible, but in The Two Towers, Sam even doubts the ‘evil' motives of a slain Haradrim warrior, wondering ”what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home." An adaptation of this line was used in The Two Towers film; spoken by Faramir.

Now moving onto Orcs (I place all varieties under this word) who expand on the consequences of tyranny. The mass production of hatred and the limiting of individual choice. Orcs are recognisably human and very little do they do that is outside the realm of human behaviour. Their actions throughout the mythos reinforce the Orcs' kinship with humanity. Orcs are indeed depicted as ‘ugly', but while their looks can be seen as an external metaphor for an internal condition, these are no more a fantasy characteristic than is Elven beauty. We can see ourselves idealised in the Elves. We see our shadow, the unadmitted, the worst side of human character in the vile but depressingly human behaviour of the Orcs and are thus forced to recognise it. Race is inconsequential, the exploration of the human condition at the fore.

Also of note is a rebuttal to the ‘civilisation against savages' argument. The Orcs are representative of the industrialists that Tolkien was so wary of and the Children of Iluvatar representative of the Luddite ideal. To give but one example: the Goblins are established in The Hobbit as being capable of creating sophisticated machines far beyond the capabilities of mere savages and that is something on par with what the Numenoreans achieved. The theme of an advanced industrialist civilisation wreaking havoc on the more 'natural' way of life is a dominant theme and one that Tolkien was projecting when creating his mythos.

By refracting these issues through different races, Tolkien like medieval writers and scribes of ancient myth, risked flattening his characters into types; often described by his harshest critics as simple stereotypes. It can be equally said that Tolkien's fascination with racial and cultural difference allowed him to explore the difficulty of understanding across cultural difference and the need for mutual respect. The Lord of the Rings places emphasis on the need for mutual respect and cooperation amongst the various peoples who coexist in Middle-earth and whose diverse cultures are threatened by the mono-cultural dominion of Melkor and Sauron.

*he hasn't posted in two years :(
 
Yes because decades of existing works had no black people in them, to my knowledge at least. Sure it would make sense in our world and from what we have read about the other easterlings that there would be black guys but the dude in the trailer stands out like an unicorn thanks to that.

And if you remember when the movies came out so many people bitched about the eagles and how they didn't make sense at all too.

I refer back to my example of a human living in the shire.
 
Yes because decades of existing works had no black people in them, to my knowledge at least. Sure it would make sense in our world and from what we have read about the other easterlings that there would be black guys but the dude in the trailer stands out like an unicorn thanks to that.

And if you remember when the movies came out so many people bitched about the eagles and how they didn't make sense at all too.
The guy didn't stand out at all to me. You have to realise that the majority of people aren't in some deep, deep Tolkien lore hole and won't bat an eye at a black dude being in this

I'm sick of fantasy being fantastical enough for orcs and ghosts and magic, but not for POC to exist. Like that's where people draw the line. It's garbage reasoning and honestly just boring and lazy at this point
 

zoodoo

Member
Yes because decades of existing works had no black people in them, to my knowledge at least. Sure it would make sense in our world and from what we have read about the other easterlings that there would be black guys but the dude in the trailer stands out like an unicorn thanks to that.

And if you remember when the movies came out so many people bitched about the eagles and how they didn't make sense at all too.

but the game does not respect the lore. That is why it is not canon.
the trailer shows a balrog in Mordor which is impossible as the was only one balrog alive at that time and it was not in Mordor. Also an elf cannot be a wraith which goes against the whole Celembrimbor character.
 
but the game does not respect the lore. That is why it is not canon.
the trailer shows a balrog in Mordor which is impossible as the was only one balrog alive at that time and it was not in Mordor. Also an elf cannot be a wraith which goes against the whole Celembrimbor character.

Best as I'm aware, it's never actually made clear if Durin's Bane is 'the last' Balrog. On the issue of elves being wraiths, I don't know enough there.
 

E-flux

Member
The guy didn't stand out at all to me. You have to realise that the majority of people aren't in some deep, deep Tolkien lore hole and won't bat an eye at a black dude being in this

I'm sick of fantasy being fantastical enough for orcs and ghosts and magic, but not for POC to exist. Like that's where people draw the line. It's garbage reasoning and honestly just boring and lazy at this point

I get that not many people have even read the books and i wouldn't really have a problem with it if it wasn't so closely related to the war of the ring in terms of time and location, i would have no problems if we were to explore the whereabouts of the blue wizards who lived in the east and suddenly most of the people were some other ethnicity. Hell at that point playing as Talion or who ever he was would be the thing sticking out.

but the game does not respect the lore. That is why it is not canon.
the trailer shows a balrog in Mordor which is impossible as the was only one balrog alive at that time and it was not in Mordor. Also an elf cannot be a wraith which goes against the whole Celembrimbor character.

I'm well aware that the games don't respect the lore, the first game was absolutely horrible when it came to that.

lol

Fuck this. Dragons are fine, but oh no, not a black dude.

Middle earth is heavily inspired by Kalevala and Norse mythology so it's no wonder that there were no black people in the books, in middle earth it would have been extremely difficult to journey across the huge desert or by the sea to the place where war of the ring takes place and for what? Only reason easterlings where there in the first place were because they were enslaved my sauron. Doesn't make sense for a black people to be running around the place given the time period, and like i said earlier if they give good enough of a reason i might buy it but i doubt it.
 
I get that not many people have even read the books and i wouldn't really have a problem with it if it wasn't so closely related to the war of the ring in terms of time and location, i would have no problems if we were to explore the whereabouts of the blue wizards who lived in the east and suddenly most of the people were some other ethnicity. Hell at that point playing as Talion or who ever he was would be the thing sticking out.



I'm well aware that the games don't respect the lore, the first game was absolutely horrible when it came to that.



Middle earth is heavily inspired by Kalevala and Norse mythology so it's no wonder that there were no black people in the books, in middle earth it would have been extremely difficult to journey across the huge desert or by the sea to the place where war of the ring takes place and for what? Only reason easterlings where there in the first place were because they were enslaved my sauron. Doesn't make sense for a black people to be running around the place given the time period, and like i said earlier if they give good enough of a reason i might buy it but i doubt it.

Yes because decades of existing works had no black people in them, to my knowledge at least. Sure it would make sense in our world and from what we have read about the other easterlings that there would be black guys but the dude in the trailer stands out like an unicorn thanks to that.

And if you remember when the movies came out so many people bitched about the eagles and how they didn't make sense at all too.

Right. On. Time.

Please, do go on.
 
Middle earth is heavily inspired by Kalevala and Norse mythology so it's no wonder that there were no black people in the books, in middle earth it would have been extremely difficult to journey across the huge desert or by the sea to the place where war of the ring takes place and for what? Only reason easterlings where there in the first place were because they were enslaved my sauron. Doesn't make sense for a black people to be running around the place given the time period, and like i said earlier if they give good enough of a reason i might buy it but i doubt it.

Why does "strongly inspired" always seem to mean "Can diverge drastically in some cases, but must strictly adhere to in other, equally arbitrary, cases"?
 
I get that not many people have even read the books and i wouldn't really have a problem with it if it wasn't so closely related to the war of the ring in terms of time and location, i would have no problems if we were to explore the whereabouts of the blue wizards who lived in the east and suddenly most of the people were some other ethnicity. Hell at that point playing as Talion or who ever he was would be the thing sticking out.



I'm well aware that the games don't respect the lore, the first game was absolutely horrible when it came to that.



Middle earth is heavily inspired by Kalevala and Norse mythology so it's no wonder that there were no black people in the books, in middle earth it would have been extremely difficult to journey across the huge desert or by the sea to the place where war of the ring takes place and for what? Only reason easterlings where there in the first place were because they were enslaved my sauron. Doesn't make sense for a black people to be running around the place given the time period, and like i said earlier if they give good enough of a reason i might buy it but i doubt it.
Honestly, canon orthodoxy flew out the window the moment the first game ended on "dude, let's forge a ring of power to fuck Sauron's shit up".
 

The Big N

Banned
If Monolith Andy ever see's this post... I will forever love of you for supporting GOME as long as you did. You are one community manager that will not be forgotten.

I'm glad to see Monolith making LotR games. Guardians of Middle Earth may have suffered from a bad net code, but god damn did they pay mad respect to the IP.
 

Skilletor

Member
Middle earth is heavily inspired by Kalevala and Norse mythology so it's no wonder that there were no black people in the books, in middle earth it would have been extremely difficult to journey across the huge desert or by the sea to the place where war of the ring takes place and for what? Only reason easterlings where there in the first place were because they were enslaved my sauron. Doesn't make sense for a black people to be running around the place given the time period, and like i said earlier if they give good enough of a reason i might buy it but i doubt it.

Black people need logic to exist in a fantasy, made up, world.

Got it.
 

E-flux

Member
Honestly, canon orthodoxy flew out the window the moment the first game ended on "dude, let's forge a ring of power to fuck Sauron's shit up".

Lol, it ended like that? I couldn't play it to completion one of the dullest games i have played in a longwhile.

Why does "strongly inspired" always seem to mean "Can diverge drastically in some cases, but must strictly adhere to in other, equally arbitrary, cases"?

Everybody has their own opinions on what make sense and what doesn't. I was complaining a lot more about the first game and how it handled the world when that one came out, and as a fan of the books they haven't done anything good after Return of the king movie so it's always annoying to see yet another bad Lotr game to come out with it's own additions even if they are not canon.

Black people need logic to exist in a fantasy, made up, world.

Got it.
Everything needs some sort of a reason to exist in a made up world, that's the reason why there's so much history to middle earth because tolkien knew that. Plus it wouldn't be a stretch for black people to live in middle earth but one hanging around mordor would be.
 
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