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[Omegasquash]

Mike once went on this whole Twitter tirade about how if you have a penis, you're a man, and if you have a vagina, you're a woman, regardless of what you personally identify as, and that he won't acknowledge any gender identity other than the one you were born with physiologically.

This is where I cite a failure in memory, because I sort of now recall that. Thank you. Also, that's...not cool.

 

[Emitan]

Mike once went on this whole Twitter tirade about how if you have a penis, you're a man, and if you have a vagina, you're a woman, regardless of what you personally identify as, and that he won't acknowledge any gender identity other than the one you were born with physiologically.

Also he blocked anyone who tried to educate him, reveling in ignorance.

Also he did this twice.

 

[StarCreator]

Saying people merely "want to hate" him is utterly disingenuous. We want him to stop trivializing rape and spewing transphobia. He does this shit over and over, makes weak ass non-apologies, all the while eschewing actual accountability and growth. Ah, the wonders of privilege.

What's even worse is that this shit becomes a rallying point for his fans. His misogyny and transphobia directly shape the culture at PAX, making the event unsafe.

I've attended every PAX East and was at PAX Prime this past weekend, and I had no idea any of this happened until I was on the plane headed home. I encountered no "culture" or anything of the sort, it was just a trade show that happens to bear the name of a website.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

There are plenty of other gaming conventions that don't include crowds cheering for rape related merchandise and aren't run by troubled teenagers masquerading as industry moguls.

I'll go to those.

Okay, but that is kind of unfair. Though I agree he should have calm down their fanbase, is truly awful label.

 

[Peagles]

I've now read it a few times, is it just me first thing in the morning, or there is no apology there? It makes references to apologising before and continuing to apologise, but I can't spot an actual apology within the text...

Oh there's more to it than in the OP?

 

[Emitan]

Mike said something ignorant and the internet came after him thirsty for blood, as usual. It's not a controversy.

Mike said something ignorant. He was corrected. He blocked anyone who corrected his ignorance. He said things to purposely upset people.

He then repeated this a few weeks later.

 

[sleepykyo]

Kickstarter for dickwolves merchandise on the way in a couple of months?

Not from him I'd assume. At this point the rest of the staff has probably stressed that it is done.

 

[disastermouse]

I'm asking from a place of ignorance...but what's this about transphobia from PA? I've never directly read anything or picked up anything, but I'll be the first to say that I most probably could have missed it.

One of them said that trans-women weren't really women.

If this is really offensive, straight guys on the forum should ask themselves if they would date a transgender woman. How about if a transwoman told you she was transgender only after you'd been dating for a few months? For a lot of guys it would be a problem. Now, what if your girlfriend told you matter-of-factly that she was a woman now and was born a woman. You'd say 'duh'.

So yeah, there is a difference.

 

[RMI]

I've attended every PAX East and was at PAX Prime this past weekend, and I had no idea any of this happened until I was on the plane headed home. I encountered no "culture" or anything of the sort, it was just a trade show that happens to bear the name of a website.

I have had this same experience at multiple PAX conventions. There is no culture of bigotry there. It's a really cool convention.

 

[Cartman86]

Bull fucking shit. He does this every time. It's been years of this shit. Dickwolves here, tentacle rape there, trans ignorance over here. If he truly cared he would have clarified the second the crowd cheered. The willfully ignorant will continue to fall for these apologies and the intentionally hateful will continue to wish he didn't. Round and round we go.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

One of them said that trans-women weren't really women.

If this is really offensive, straight guys on the forum should ask themselves if they would date a transgender woman. How about if a transwoman told you she was transgender only after you'd been dating for a few months? For a lot of guys it would be a problem. Now, what if your girlfriend told you matter-of-factly that she was a woman now and was born a woman. You'd say 'duh'.

So yeah, there is a difference.

UGH...the hell?

 

[brettreyu]

Sounds like he is sorry that it caused them a headache, not sorry that they did it in the first place.

This. His apology is a non-apology to me, because he escalated it so many times and brought it back up. It screams of "I'm so sorry that everyone is upset even though I already knew they were the other 4 times that I antagonized people about the situation."

 

[marrec]

Okay, but that is kind of unfair. Though I agree he should have calm down their fanbase, is truly awful label.

You're right, it's unfair, but I'm extremely disappointed by what happened.

That's no excuse I suppose.

 

[brandnew]

One of them said that trans-women weren't really women.

If this is really offensive, straight guys on the forum should ask themselves if they would date a transgender woman. How about if a transwoman told you she was transgender only after you'd been dating for a few months? For a lot of guys it would be a problem. Now, what if your girlfriend told you matter-of-factly that she was a woman now and was born a woman. You'd say 'duh'.

So yeah, there is a difference.

You're hypothetical doesn't make much sense, but from what I can tell, you are neglecting the fact that gender is a psychological thing while sex is biological. I don't know what this has to do with straight men not wanting to date transgender women though.

 

[Adam Blue]

Mike once went on this whole Twitter tirade about how if you have a penis, you're a man, and if you have a vagina, you're a woman, regardless of what you personally identify as, and that he won't acknowledge any gender identity other than the one you were born with physiologically.

Edit: This was the incident that caused the one developer to pull out of PAX.

No, no, it wasn't that black and white. He wasn't aware of the idea that a biological male or female would identify as the opposite gender. When that was pointed out to him, he came back and apologizing acknowledging that factoid now.

This is the problem - people are being way too insensitive to others by talking down at them and claiming they are this way or that - people get defensive about it. And the misinformation of this quote? It hides important details.

This is the problem.

 

[Cartman86]

One of them said that trans-women weren't really women.

If this is really offensive, straight guys on the forum should ask themselves if they would date a transgender woman. How about if a transwoman told you she was transgender only after you'd been dating for a few months? For a lot of guys it would be a problem. Now, what if your girlfriend told you matter-of-factly that she was a woman now and was born a woman. You'd say 'duh'.

So yeah, there is a difference.

They are simply asking you gender them the way they want to be gendered. They aren't asking you to say they were biologically born female. He compared that to someone calling themselves Batman. He's an asshole.

 

[Gaogaogao]

just shut up and do pax, fuck everything else

 

[disastermouse]

UGH...the hell?

I'm saying that you're not a psycho for thinking that transgender women aren't 'really' women. You can think that and not only not be a monster, but also not be entirely wrong.

 

[marrec]

UGH...the hell?

An example of the fandom that Mike has cultivated.

 

[Vigilant Gambit]

One of them said that trans-women weren't really women.

If this is really offensive, straight guys on the forum should ask themselves if they would date a transgender woman. How about if a transwoman told you she was transgender only after you'd been dating for a few months? For a lot of guys it would be a problem. Now, what if your girlfriend told you matter-of-factly that she was a woman now and was born a woman. You'd say 'duh'.

So yeah, there is a difference.

The difference is, I wouldn't tell trans women worldwide that I don't acknowledge their personal gender identification, as if it isn't valid because I said so.

And there are plenty of good reasons why a straight guy might be unwilling to date a trans woman.

 

[Elija2]

I don't understand why they brought the whole thing back up in the first place just for them to apologize again.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

No, no, it wasn't that black and white. He wasn't aware of the idea that a biological male or female would identify as the opposite gender. When that was pointed out to him, he came back and apologizing acknowledging that factoid now.

This is the problem - people are being way too insensitive to others by talking down at them and claiming they are this way or that - people get defensive about it. And the misinformation of this quote? It hides important details.

This is the problem.

Is this the problem?

 

[Omegasquash]

One of them said that trans-women weren't really women.

If this is really offensive, straight guys on the forum should ask themselves if they would date a transgender woman. How about if a transwoman told you she was transgender only after you'd been dating for a few months? For a lot of guys it would be a problem. Now, what if your girlfriend told you matter-of-factly that she was a woman now and was born a woman. You'd say 'duh'.

So yeah, there is a difference.

I'm not sure I'm picking up what you're putting down. Are you stating that transgendered people shouldn't be offended or taken aback when someone says that they'll not acknowledge them as the gender to which they identify?

I'm saying that you're not a psycho for thinking that transgender women aren't 'really' women. You can think that and not only not be a monster, but also not be entirely wrong.

Oh, I guess you're saying that it's in the eye of the beholder. I think.

I don't agree with that at all, but I also don't think that it's fair to make the only example one where sex (having sex) is in play.

 

[brandnew]

I'm saying that you're not a psycho for thinking that transgender women aren't 'really' women. You can think that and not only not be a monster, but also not be entirely wrong.

But can you tell them directly "no, you are not a woman because you were born with a penis and that's that." Because that's pretty much how Mike handled it.

 

[Emitan]

No, no, it wasn't that black and white. He wasn't aware of the idea that a biological male or female would identify as the opposite gender. When that was pointed out to him, he came back and apologizing acknowledging that factoid now.

This is the problem - people are being way too insensitive to others by talking down at them and claiming they are this way or that - people get defensive about it. And the misinformation of this quote? It hides important details.

This is the problem.

And then he said the same ignorant stuff again a few weeks later after learning this.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

An example of the fandom that Mike has cultivated.

I need to agree with you that ignorance can cultivate ignorance. Though not enough to label everyone as that.

Still, that was painfull.

 

[disastermouse]

They are simply asking you gender them the way they want to be gendered. They aren't asking you to say they were biologically born female. He compared that to someone calling themselves Batman. He's an asshole.

Isn't that a bit like the South Park episode where one of the fathers transformed himself into a dolphin?

You can assign yourself to be whatever you want, but we are all, individually and collectively, allowed to say "Yeah...no."

 

[marrec]

I don't understand why they brought the whole thing back up in the first place just for them to apologize again.

Because Mike has no idea how to interact with other human beings in an empathetic way and simply wanted to get one more dig at the detractors.

 

[UncleSporky]

They are simply asking you gender them the way they want to be gendered. They aren't asking you to say they were biologically born female. He compared that to someone calling themselves Batman. He's an asshole.

Actually he didn't know the first thing about this, and upon being educated by a personal friend, apologized profusely and is presumably more understanding.

So he was an asshole, I guess. Does it count as being an asshole if you don't know? If so I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who are assholes, just waiting to be revealed until the subject comes up for the first time.

 

[Meia]

I would say it's a good end.

Penny Arcade makes a strip, controversy ensues. Now one of the creator shares that he regrets most of the situation. It was a ridiculous cycle of miscommunication and a shared lack of getting intent across, and very little, if any, good came of it. Mike regrets much of it and is honest about that, I find that to be about as good a response as he could have at this point. There's nothing more to find in this issue.

It's long past time we moved on, this post by him makes it clear that there's no war raging any more, it's over, people need to let it die, and allow everyone involved to move on. There's a way to recognize earlier faults while not being eternally caught on them.

Bravo.


He admitted he handled it poorly, but because he didn't use the words "I'm sorry" it's meaningless? What exactly do people "want" to resolve this situation? @_@

 

[marrec]

Isn't that a bit like the South Park episode where one of the fathers transformed himself into a dolphin?

You can assign yourself to be whatever you want, but we are all, individually and collectively, allowed to say "Yeah...no."

Uuhhhhh...

It's not like that at all.

 

[Lambtron]

He says outright he never wanted to hurt anyone.

And I don't want to stink up the bathroom when I go take a dump this afternoon. Apologies aren't about intent. Intent isn't worth jack shit.

This is a complete non-apology. I don't think he's ever actually reflected and apologized for the shit he did. He's sorry that he's made people mad. He's sorry that it reflects poorly on his brand. He's sorry it could affect his bottom line. But with the willful ignorance and persecution complex he's displayed through the entire ordeal (and every other one that's come up since) it's pretty clear he doesn't have one fuck to give. He still thinks that people being critical of his actions are big bad bullies.

In summary, fuck this guy.

 

[RMI]

I don't understand why they brought the whole thing back up in the first place just for them to apologize again.

"If you saw the panel you know that someone in the audience shouted out and asked us to bring the merchandise back."

I don't think they brought it back up. Some random idiot did and then Mike probably said something stupid.

 

[Emitan]

Isn't that a bit like the South Park episode where one of the fathers transformed himself into a dolphin?

You can assign yourself to be whatever you want, but we are all, individually and collectively, allowed to say "Yeah...no."

Are you actually unaware South Park's MO is to be offensive? When you're agreeing with South Park you've probably fucked up.

 

[Vigilant Gambit]

Bravo.


He admitted he handled it poorly, but because he didn't use the words "I'm sorry" it's meaningless? What exactly do people "want" to resolve this situation? @_@

Hopefully this isn't too soon, but I can understand the outrage people have in reaction to Mike's latest statement.

It reads kinda like Roger Ebert's statement about how he wished he hadn't said that games weren't art.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Isn't that a bit like the South Park episode where one of the fathers transformed himself into a dolphin?

You can assign yourself to be whatever you want, but we are all, individually and collectively, allowed to say "Yeah...no."

Please, no... don't mention South Park and psychology thogether.

 

[Ketch]

The thing about humor, and sexual harassment/verbal abuse/whatever, is that it doesn't matter how you intended for it go, it only matters how the audience perceives it to be. The flip side of that is: Just because you think something someone said is offensive, it doesn't automatically make that person an asshole.

I try to live by the policy "Say whatever you want, as long as it's funny". As I've grown older, I've realized that their are plenty of situations where that is not appropriate, but as a result I'm not nearly as humorous as I was in my youth (subjectively of course).

The thing is, he wasn't trying to offend rape victims. Unfortunately, it's not up to him to decide. He's apologized for offending people, but not for trying to make funny comics, and I don't really blame him. Besides making some bad jokes, he's done some really good things with the blessings he's been given.

If you really really want to hold his mistakes against him, and forever label this person a blight on society, then maybe you should take a second to examine your own life. Consider what it feels like when people don't forgive you for your mistakes, and then count up all the good things you've accomplished with your life's work. Compare your list to his and maybe you'll realize, that if you were in his position, you wouldn't deserve all the hate either.

 

[webrunner]

Actually he didn't know the first about this, and upon being educated by a personal friend, apologized profusely and is presumably more understanding.

So he was an asshole, I guess. Does it count as being an asshole if you don't know? If so I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who are assholes, just waiting to be revealed until the subject comes up for the first time.

Admittedly my memory was hazy

but didn't someone point it out to him, then he was a big asshole about it denying they exist, then a friend told him they were trans and he was like "oh shit i didn't know they existed"

seemed more like trying to weasel out of trouble then actually being newly 'informed'

 

[MDSVeritas]

Maybe if the people still calling for his head could actually let it go...nothing is good enough for these people. They read what they want in anything.

The kind of language in this thread is disgusting, and just as bad if not worse than what several posters (including myself) got called out on by the mods for in the last thread on this subject a few days ago.

You want to talk about a hostile, unwelcoming environment? It's this thread.

I agree with you to an extent. I totally understand having a distinct distaste for much of his actions during the fiasco, and certainly the issue is understandably hard for certain people to simply let go of, but, and perhaps it's just me, regardless of the ideological wars being waged over this issue, I take that comment of his as more a personal, honest confession of being unable to truly handle the situation with tact and regretting it, and frankly I don't think there's a much better way of handling a situation like that besides being honest and genuine about what you felt at the time.

People like to hold certain famous people like this up as symbols, whether it be of good or bad things, but frankly we need to stop that. They are just people, and while we must hold them accountable for things we find to be mistakes, we have to understand the issue from a human perspective, not an ideological one. Everyone is in situations at time that they don't want to be in, and everyone had points when they handle such situations in bad ways. I'm not saying people shouldn't have been angry at him, they absolutely can and most likely should but the only way to resolve these issues is honest dialogue, and if we cannot accept someone's attempt at honest dialogue then situations like this will never resolve. I take the same issue with hidebound people in this thread as I took with Mike himself when he made snide and unneeded comments about those who disagreed with him. It is a lack of understanding that starts these issues, and I believe it should be understanding that resolves them. I think people on whatever side need to be able to understand, learn, and move on. To do otherwise creates needless conflict and helps absolutely nobody.

 

[besada]

I don't understand why they brought the whole thing back up in the first place just for them to apologize again.

Because Khoo at PAX asked Mike and Jerry what his biggest mistake was, and Mike responded by saying the removal of the Dickwolves merch was Khoo's biggest mistake, because it caused the Dickwolves controversy to flare back up.

It was a super intense interview but the one question that is getting the most attention is when Robert asked us to name a time when we thought he made a mistake.

That’s a hard question because honestly Robert makes very few mistakes. Although if he asked me that same question today I’d probably say “the time you asked us to be brutally honest in front of three thousand people.” So I had to think really hard about it and the only time I could remember really thinking he made a mistake was when he told us we had to pull the Dickwolves merch. I didn’t really get a chance to elaborate on why that was though, and unfortunately by not doing so it created a bit of a firestorm on the Internet.

With that said I absolutely regret everything we did after that comic. I regret the follow up strip, I regret making the merchandise, I regret pulling the merchandise and I regret being such an asshole on twitter to people who were upset. I don’t think any of those things were good ideas. If we had just stopped with the strip and moved on, the Dickwolf never would have become what it is today.

We should have just stopped right then but we kept going and made the merchandise. Had we left it alone, the ongoing tension about the whole thing might have subsided but Robert made the call to pull the shirts. In hindsight all this did was open the wound back up and bring on a whole new wave of debate. Any action we took at the time just dug us deeper regardless of what it was. What we needed to do was stop. just stop. I apologized for it at the time and I will still apologize for it. Everything we did after that initial comic strip was a mistake and I regret all of it.

 

[Omegasquash]

Isn't that a bit like the South Park episode where one of the fathers transformed himself into a dolphin?

You can assign yourself to be whatever you want, but we are all, individually and collectively, allowed to say "Yeah...no."

Again, I think this is a strange example. Individually I cannot say to a person "you are this gender." If they identify as a gender, then that's that. They're still a person, with the respect due to them that all humans deserve.

 

[ElFly]

They are people like you and me. This:



Their intentions were nowhere near what they were accused of. And just like any human would do, he reacted in a defensive manner - even apologized back then. But his detractors are quite ruthless when it's understandable that it was not his intention to hurt rape victims.

This should not be a reason to overlook/boycott things such as Child's Play.

Problem is that everybody had moved on and then the guy comes on stage and says the part he regretted the most was pulling the merchandise.

Instead of, you know, making the merchandise in the first place, which is what actually hurt the victims the most.

Hiding behind Child's Play is not really a good idea (Gabe isn't doing it, tho, just you). If I had to choose between perpetuating rape culture or giving kids in hospitals videogames, the choice is clear.

 

[Conciliator]

I swear that episode of south park set back transgender identity equality 10 years.

 

[ultron87]

"If you saw the panel you know that someone in the audience shouted out and asked us to bring the merchandise back."

I don't think they brought it back up. Some random idiot did and then Mike probably said something stupid.

No. That's not it at all. Khoo, their business dude, was conducting an interview with them and asked if they thought he'd made mistakes at any point and Mike brought this particular instance up out of the blue. The audience member shouted about it later.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Personally, I think their full backtrack and subsequent actions are sufficient. I think they get it and are sincere. I think any reasonable holistic look at what PA does, from PAX to Child's Play, backs that up. They absolutely fucked up in their initial response, and beyond. They admit that, apologized, and moved on as best they can. And are still apologizing. It'll continue to haunt them for a while but as far as I'm concerned that's the end of it. Until their next screw up, of course.

 

[creid]

I was there at the Q&A and hearing Mike's comment turned my stomach. I believe the apology is sincere, but it doesn't explain why he didn't take the opportunity to clarify at the time, after a bunch of douchebags cheered.

 

[Lissar]

Isn't that a bit like the South Park episode where one of the fathers transformed himself into a dolphin?

You can assign yourself to be whatever you want, but we are all, individually and collectively, allowed to say "Yeah...no."

Given that the brains of trans people are physically wired to be the gender they identify as (as in, a trans woman's brain is physically similar to a cis woman's brain), no... no, it isn't like that at all, actually.

 

[AwShucks]

Seriously who cares? I'm amazed at how much people care about this topic.

 

[yeoz]

Isn't that a bit like the South Park episode where one of the fathers transformed himself into a dolphin?

You can assign yourself to be whatever you want, but we are all, individually and collectively, allowed to say "Yeah...no."

Being a dolphin is not something that actually frigging happens in reality.
There are real actual live transgender people on NeoGAF who are actually the gender they say they are.
There are no people on neogaf who claims themselves as dolphins and who are actually dolphins.
Saying this kind of thing actively insults those of us on NeoGAF who are transgender.

 

[Derpstar]

I don't understand the issue.