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[Warm Machine]

None of these apply to myself, but what if:

1. You have no money.

2. You live in a territory/country where the game is not for sale.

3. You are a kid who is not old enough to legally buy the game.

4. You are old enough to buy the game but live with parents who won't let you buy it.

Yes, it would still be wrong to pirate the game in these cases, but it wouldn't be a lost sale.

Well anyone who has no money but still is able to obtain anything by an illegal mean and enjoys it without retribution, makes the people who actually paid for it look like idiots for parting with their own money and playing within the established system.

 

[TheRagnCajun]

There's a reason that this is the DLC generation -- because people have realized that literally every game can be extended and expanded with additional content.

Now! It's true that when your game costs $60 upfront, it's hard to use "and we'll give you more content!" as a good selling point... but then, that's a problem with the hardline $60 pricepoint, not with piracy.

Its all about the pricepoint. I like to think that most game pirates are $5-$20 would-be purchasers. If a game is only worth $20 to you, then you're not going to buy it for $60 if it comes with some additional content. Its easier to pirate it and do without the additional content.

The 'add extra content' model can work, City of Heroes is going strong 6 years after release because they have 19 free expansions to keep people interested, not that piracy is a factor. Adding value to a game helps boost sales, its why valve does it. But those sales aren't coming from would-be pirates, its coming from re-marketing your game, and the boosted community activity and word-of-mouth that comes with that.

 

[Freyjadour]

Because coding time is infinitely cheaper than art time.

I don't really consider "NEW COSTUMES" as DLC worth mentioning in any intelligent discussion.

 

[Haly]

Minecraft wasn't originally a massive success. In fact, it's this model that allowed it to become one.

I think this also applies to League of Legends, which no one expected to gain the massive following it did (not even the developers themselves expected it, and their underestimation has led to some constraints on the expansion of the current game), but it's model is one of the greatest factors behind its popularity.

 

[kodt]

When later on those constraints no longer apply, and yet you already own a pirated copy, that's potentially a lost sale.

True, but only if the game is still for sale. Also the MSRP is probably lower at that point, so you still have no accurate way to calculate the lost sale.

If a dev is going to count every DL on a torrent for an M rated game as a lost sale, they have to know that underage kids are downloading the game. If you want to count those lost sales you must also admit that you intend for underage kids to buy your game. And that is not something the game industry needs.

 

[Vinci]

Well anyone who has no money but still is able to obtain anything by an illegal mean and enjoys it without retribution, makes the people who actually paid for it look like idiots for parting with their own money and playing within the established system.

Do you really believe that? That people feel stupid for paying for something?

 

[The Technomancer]

I don't really consider "NEW COSTUMES" as DLC worth mentioning in any intelligent discussion.

No, but the new assets required for something like Minerva's Den or Shadow Broker?

 

[kodt]

Do you really believe that? That people feel stupid for paying for something?

I have felt stupid for spending $60 on a game I didn't enjoy much, or that I enjoyed but finished in 6 hours and never touched it again.

 

[Drkirby]

Do you really believe that? That people feel stupid for paying for something?

No, but I do believe that some people will call other idiots for paying for something legally instead of stealing it.

 

[Goldmund]

You're messing with me. A guy is going to pop out from behind the curtain with a camera and yell "PUNK'D," right?

I love your replies and will do everything to winkle out another one.

 

[Freyjadour]

No, but the new assets required for something like Minerva's Den or Shadow Broker?

My point by example:

Dragon Quest has managed to be immensely successful (in Japan) using the same 20 character models for the last 20 years. If your game requires a massive budget to add value to any part of it, something is wrong.

 

[Warm Machine]

Do you really believe that? That people feel stupid for paying for something?

Everyone knows the pirate who has his own money and a mountain of stolen games, music, and movies who continually berates people for actually buying games.

I know guys like this IN the game industry as salary staffers. Most everyone I know with a DS in the game industry has an R4 and hasn't bought a DS game in years.

 

[poisonelf]

Actually I couldn't disagree more with what he says.

He uses his indie game as a basis for his views, and having suddenly made bajillions thanks to a game that cost next to nothing to develop I think it's only natural that his feels thankful towards the internet crowd and would have such views.

But for games that cost millions, that have teams of tens (hundred?) of people behind them, that cost almost as much for marketing, even losing 10% of potential sales is a huge hit. Perhaps that 10% was the profit margin. Of course you can't consider every illegal copy a lost sale, but some are.

I know it's really hip for some crowds to equate everything to "information should be free" thing, but illegally downloading content that is created by the labor and talent of people who do so for a living, whether a book or a game, is theft. Sorry. You'll read/play it, enjoy it, and won't pay for it.

I still can't get over the fact that there won't be a Titan Quest 2 and the developers were adamant about the role piracy played. I believe them because too many people loved the game, it should have sold well.

HOWEVER, certain practices of big publishers are inviting piracy. This generation introduced the death of LAN, DRM, paid DLC that should be in the original game, $60 PC games, etc.

 

[Lionheart1337]

It's either they pirate or don't play the game at all most of the time.

 

[rpmurphy]

True, but only if the game is still for sale. Also the MSRP is probably lower at that point, so you still have no accurate way to calculate the lost sale.

If a dev is going to count every DL on a torrent for an M rated game as a lost sale, they have to know that underage kids are downloading the game. If you want to count those lost sales you must also admit that you intend for underage kids to buy your game. And that is not something the game industry needs.

Well yeah, if we're talking about time elapse as a factor in purchase availability, pricing, and consumer interest, it's not really simple to say how many sales you would get. It depends really on the longevity of the software itself.

However, software does not degrade as fast as physical goods. There's much less concern of physical deterioration, and in the case of fixed platforms like consoles and handhelds, incompatibilities are not much of an issue. Furthermore, games are entertainment products with much intangible value, so the existence of new competing games or sequels do not necessarily lessen the value of the original as much. Therefore, the availability of piracy on Day 1 or in the short term is not a negligible factor in determining lost sales.

 

[KingJ2002]

Interesting... it looks like this gen... the quality of games is going up... but the value is going down? hence the piracy?

 

[Vorador]

He raised a valid point in that releasing large amounts of post-launch features and updates for free reduce piracy without punishing paying consumers.

Sure, not a lot of companies can do that, but in his case has worked wonders.

 

[MrHicks]

It's either they pirate or don't play the game at all most of the time.

THIS

they fuck around and play these games cause "what the hell its free ill give it a go im bored!!!"

if that same game is immune from piracy most just won't bother at all and go do something else (something less expensive) to kill time

scenarios like this is why 1 illegal download = 1 lost sale crap is such BS

 

[Arpharmd B]

If Piracy =/= lost sales, do you honestly think Sony would be going apeshit over Geohotz? Think about that for a second. Piracy impacts sales, period. Does each pirated copy = a lost sale? Of course not. Why can't people accept the simple truth: Piracy costs game developers money, plain and simple. How much money exactly is impossible to tell, but it does. Period end of story.

Stop thinking in black and white.

 

[poisonelf]

He raised a valid point in that releasing large amounts of post-launch features and updates for free reduce piracy without punishing paying consumers.

Sure, not a lot of companies can do that, but in his case has worked wonders.

I, as a gamer and consumer, like to enjoy single player RPG experiences without having to EVER deal with downloading 'features' and updates as if the original content was broken. Perhaps a good, wholesome expansion to the original, but that's it.
Should this model be forced upon me because some people prefer to not pay for their games?

 

[Goldmund]

Actually I couldn't disagree more with what he says.

He uses his indie game as a basis for his views, and having suddenly made bajillions thanks to a game that cost next to nothing to develop I think it's only natural that his feels thankful towards the internet crowd and would have such views.

But for games that cost millions, that have teams of tens (hundred?) of people behind them, that cost almost as much for marketing, even losing 10% of potential sales is a huge hit. Perhaps that 10% was the profit margin. Of course you can't consider every illegal copy a lost sale, but some are.

I know it's really hip for some crowds to equate everything to "information should be free" thing, but illegally downloading content that is created by the labor and talent of people who do so for a living, whether a book or a game, is theft. Sorry. You'll read/play it, enjoy it, and won't pay for it.

I still can't get over the fact that there won't be a Titan Quest 2 and the developers were adamant about the role piracy played. I believe them because too many people loved the game, it should have sold well.

HOWEVER, certain practices of big publishers are inviting piracy. This generation introduced the death of LAN, DRM, paid DLC that should be in the original game, $60 PC games, etc.

Information is free, that's the problem, no should nor shouldn't will stick. Information is not a product but is closely linked with production in very historic relations of violence and intellectual power. The finished code of a game is worth nothing, no matter how many work hours and talent it consumed, if it's not both the condition and the result of value-adding work (printing, producing [the computers used, for example, and the game DVDs and cases], shipping).

 

[Warm Machine]

THIS

they fuck around and play these games cause "what the hell its free ill give it a go im bored!!!"

And when they reach the end of that game having spent 8 hours playing through its single player campaign, fully satisfied and entertained do they pop a cheque in the mail to the publisher?

 

[plagiarize]

If Piracy =/= lost sales, do you honestly think Sony would be going apeshit over Geohotz? Think about that for a second. Piracy impacts sales, period. Does each pirated copy = a lost sale? Of course not. Why can't people accept the simple truth: Piracy costs game developers money, plain and simple. How much money exactly is impossible to tell, but it does. Period end of story.

Stop thinking in black and white.

erm...

not that i disagree with with your thesis.

i wouldn't use Sony taking someone to court as evidence that a belief is correct and rational though. they clearly believe it's going to cost them sales, hence the suing, but that doesn't mean it IS.

i'm sure piracy leads to people buying a game that they wouldn't have otherwise too, and we have no way of accurately measuring if those gained sales offset the lost ones. my gut tells me that they don't, but that doesn't make it a fact that piracy has a negative overall impact on sales.

again, i think it should be illegal, but using sony going to court as defense of that position, is pretty bonkers.

Sony are upset that unauthorised code is being run on their hardware. they are fighting for control of their hardware after they have sold it. we can debate their motivations there, but i don't think it's exclusively about piracy personally.

 

[plagiarize]

And when they reach the end of that game having spent 8 hours playing through its single player campaign, fully satisfied and entertained do they pop a cheque in the mail to the publisher?

sometimes yes.

 

[StevieP]

If Piracy =/= lost sales, do you honestly think Sony would be going apeshit over Geohotz? Think about that for a second. Piracy impacts sales, period. Does each pirated copy = a lost sale? Of course not. Why can't people accept the simple truth: Piracy costs game developers money, plain and simple. How much money exactly is impossible to tell, but it does. Period end of story.

Stop thinking in black and white.

Oh, the irony. It hurts.

 

[GotEmRunnin]

Thank based Notch?

 

[MrHicks]

And when they reach the end of that game having spent 8 hours playing through its single player campaign, fully satisfied and entertained do they pop a cheque in the mail to the publisher?

no
and the point is if the game can't be pirated the answer would still be no

for many of these people its either
"free" or "don't give a fuck then won't play it at all"

so what money have the publishers lost?

 

[C.Dark.DN]

If Piracy =/= lost sales, do you honestly think Sony would be going apeshit over Geohotz? Think about that for a second. Piracy impacts sales, period. Does each pirated copy = a lost sale? Of course not. Why can't people accept the simple truth: Piracy costs game developers money, plain and simple. How much money exactly is impossible to tell, but it does. Period end of story.

Stop thinking in black and white.

Piracy can also lead to sales.

Buying used games is a 100% loss of sales. Tho there's a limit of how many exist.

 

[Warm Machine]

no
and the point is if the game can't be pirated the answer would still be no

for many of these people its either
"free" or "don't give a fuck then won't play it at all"

so what money have the publishers lost?

They they should not be playing the game at all. People play video games because they enjoy playing them. If the only option is to pay to play them that is what they will do to enjoy their hobby.

 

[poisonelf]

Piracy can also lead to sales.

How exactly? Someone who downloads the game will do so only to check it out and then actually pay for it when he already has it for free? Sure, it can happen, 1 in 100 I guess. If someone was interested in seeing a game and piracy didn't exist he could find a way, either playing a demo, playing at a friend, internet cafe, something. I wouldn't say piracy=sales.

 

[MrHicks]

They they should not be playing the game at all. People play video games because they enjoy playing them. If the only option is to pay to play them that is what they will do to enjoy their hobby.

its nice to want things i guess
will never happen though lol thats utopian stuff right there

 

[Grayman]

Maybe he's right there, but that's just useless semantics. It doesn't matter if it's "stealing", metaphorically speaking. It hurts the developers and publishers, and it is what it is.

hurts them emotionally maybe. people who are not buying the game are not buying the game, that does not hurt more if they play it or not.

 

[Sqorgar]

Piracy impacts sales, period.

And until someone can come up with some actual figures for HOW MUCH piracy impacts sales, this argument will go nowhere.

 

[Thunderbear]

Glad it works for him but not every game can follow his business model. Unless you want to see games that can be updated easily and constantly only.

While I agree, and have had the opinion, that you copy -- you don't steal, it's still wrong. Plagiarism is wrong and also illegal since he wanted to draw that parallel. You have to think "what if everyone thought like you" -- the result would be no gaming industry. You have to take responsibility for the actions you are making and what repercussion those actions have on the bigger whole. Thinking that "other people buy games so they make enough money so it's cool that I pirate" is like justifying any other bad behavior by saying the same thing.

Then there are the gray pirates, the people that buy a lot of games and also pirate games. Those I don't mind as much as they still contribute to the industry on a regular basis. Average/bad games suffer more in these cases so publishers that make a first mediocre game might not get to make that second successful game and learn from the mistakes of the first game. If no-one pirated, maybe more mediocre developers would get that chance because they would sell just enough. It's a gray area and hard to estimate. But I hope those gray pirates buy the games they enjoy, even if they got bad reviews.

 

[old manatee]

Now that you can regularly get year-old AAA games from steam for less than $10, without leaving the house, I think it's safe to say that anyone who still pirates pc games was never going to pay no matter how good a deal it was.

 

[Warm Machine]

its nice to want things i guess
will never happen though lol thats utopian stuff right there

I pay for everything I want to enjoy. If I can't pay for something whatever it is I don't buy it. I'd love a Tesla Roadster and a new place to live but I can't afford it.

Why is that so hard for other people to do and why do so many people justify or rationalize the actions of pirates?

 

[plagiarize]

How exactly? Someone who downloads the game will do so only to check it out and then actually pay for it when he already has it for free? Sure, it can happen, 1 in 100 I guess. If someone was interested in seeing a game and piracy didn't exist he could find a way, either playing a demo, playing at a friend, internet cafe, something. I wouldn't say piracy=sales.

well, in this new ecosystem you can also get people who absolutely wouldn't buy the game one way or another actually buying an mp key, or some dlc. the pirate 'market' if you will, is still something you can get to buy dlc, and i'm sure that it happens a lot nowadays with the online pass thing becoming standard.

we don't know what percentage of pirates equal a lost sale either. that could be 1 in 100 too.

i still think it should be illegal for a number of reasons, but that doesn't mean that it's financially harmful as is. legalising piracy would impact the bottom line of video game companies a lot more than the current illegal piracy does. currently i think it's a minimal impact (because it is illegal) but as for whether or not a game that can't be pirated released in the world where piracy IS illegal?

that's what i'm not so sure about. i know that's a confusing idea to discuss, and it may sound contradictory, but i know it isn't.

 

[kodt]

Now that you can regularly get year-old AAA games from steam for less than $10, without leaving the house, I think it's safe to say that anyone who still pirates pc games was never going to pay no matter how good a deal it was.

This is true, some people will never pay if there is a free alternative.

On the flip side, I have purchased a good 10-15 games twice because I wanted the Steam version instead of my old CD version. When the price is right, and buying the game is easier or just as easy as pirating, then many people choose that option.

 

[Vinci]

I pay for everything I want to enjoy. If I can't pay for something whatever it is I don't buy it.

And neither do they. But in your Tesla Roadster example: If you were to take it, you would be removing it from someone else's possession. In the case of a game, that's not what is happening. Therefore, you get the same amount of sales that you would have anyway - or do you think that pirates would pay for the game if they couldn't pirate it?

Why is that so hard for other people to do and why do so many people justify or rationalize the actions of pirates?

I don't think anyone is saying that piracy is awesome and 'yay for piracy!' The question is to what extent it's impacting current business, and many of us simply feel that its impact is being wildly exaggerated as a scapegoat for otherwise poor business decisions.

 

[kodt]

I pay for everything I want to enjoy. If I can't pay for something whatever it is I don't buy it. I'd love a Tesla Roadster and a new place to live but I can't afford it.

Why is that so hard for other people to do and why do so many people justify or rationalize the actions of pirates?

If you could download a Tesla Roadster and a new House for free would you? (assuming of course that no physical inventory disappears somewhere else, you are downloading a copy)

 

[Ranger X]

None of these apply to myself, but what if:

1. You have no money.

2. You live in a territory/country where the game is not for sale.

3. You are a kid who is not old enough to legally buy the game.

4. You are old enough to buy the game but live with parents who won't let you buy it.

Yes, it would still be wrong to pirate the game in these cases, but it wouldn't be a lost sale.

First off, what exist in this world isn't for everybody. You have to live with this reality like EVERYBODY ELSE. To have services or for people to do stuff for you, you need to give something to them. Since we've passed the days of simple trade, what you give in return is money most of the time. About your "reasons":

1- You're fucked. Between, if you have a computer = you at least had money and probably can have again in the futur. Plan your shit. Get what you need in life.

2- Tuff luck. While I don't agree with regioning in certain contexts, when I do create something it doesn't come with the obligation to sell it EVERYWHERE. The stuff I made can be sold where I feel it should or where I CAN sell it.

3- This means you shouldn't be playing. Do something for your age.

4- Your parents are responsible of you and you need to respect their rules until you are on your own. Here again, tuff luck. Accept to live in reality.

In all those cases, if you pirate the thing and benefit in any way from it, it should have been paid for. I don't see where the basic principle would not apply. "Someone does something for you -- you thank that person / give something in return".

 

[MrHicks]

I pay for everything I want to enjoy. If I can't pay for something whatever it is I don't buy it. I'd love a Tesla Roadster and a new place to live but I can't afford it.

Why is that so hard for other people to do and why do so many people justify or rationalize the actions of pirates?

a rare specimen you are then
keep fighting the good fight i guess

 

[jump_button]

Wait what he is talking about is copying a game, That not the same as selling copys of the game that piracy. ask him if he be happy about that im sure he not be

 

[Shambles]

If you could download a Tesla Roadster and a new House for free would you? (assuming of course that no physical inventory disappears somewhere else, you are downloading a copy)

I think we all know that answer to that but it's still fun to watch that terrible analogy fall apart.

Wait what he is talking about is copying a game, That not the same as selling copys of the game that piracy

Logic has no place here! Downloading games results in total world economic collapse!

 

[kodt]

First off, what exist in this world isn't for everybody. You have to live with this reality like EVERYBODY ELSE. To have services or for people to do stuff for you, you need to give something to them. Since we've passed the days of simple trade, what you give in return is money most of the time. About your "reasons":

1- You're fucked. Between, if you have a computer = you at least had money and probably can have again in the futur. Plan your shit. Get what you need in life.

2- Tuff luck. While I don't agree with regioning in certain contexts, when I do create something it doesn't come with the obligation to sell it EVERYWHERE. The stuff I made can be sold where I feel it should or where I CAN sell it.

3- This means you shouldn't be playing. Do something for your age.

4- Your parents are responsible of you and you need to respect their rules until you are on your own. Here again, tuff luck. Accept to live in reality.

In all those cases, if you pirate the thing and benefit in any way from it, it should have been paid for. I don't see where the basic principle would not apply. "Someone does something for you -- you thank that person / give something in return".

Your points are all valid but in none of those cases would pirating equate a lost sale.

 

[ultron87]

Saying # of pirated copies downloaded = # of lost sales is just as insane as saying that lost sales from piracy = 0.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

How exactly? Someone who downloads the game will do so only to check it out and then actually pay for it when he already has it for free? Sure, it can happen, 1 in 100 I guess. If someone was interested in seeing a game and piracy didn't exist he could find a way, either playing a demo, playing at a friend, internet cafe, something. I wouldn't say piracy=sales.

I said piracy can equal sales. Don't pull random statistics out of no where. Multilayer would be the biggest selling point.

Similarly, borrowing it from a friend can equal no sales.

Buying it used equals no sales except for the original purchase. It can be passed around an infinite number of times.

I've said this a few times and everyone ignores it.

 

[Warm Machine]

If you could download a Tesla Roadster and a new House for free would you? (assuming of course that no physical inventory disappears somewhere else, you are downloading a copy)

I never equated digital to physical. Just cost of goods. Every consumer item has a price associated with it. You can't pay the price, you don't deserve to obtain it.

 

[Ranger X]

Your points are all valid but they in none of those cases would pirating equate a lost sale.

How? Let's take a random one -- the kid that want to play the game but the parents doesn't want to buy it.

Let's say the kid pirate the game and then plays it. He likes it. That's a lost sale. Someone was selling this entertainement and made this for you. No matter if you're a kid or adult, you benefited from what that person created and you didn't give them what they initally ask to benefit from it. Lost sale.

In this example here, the parent should have bought the game or the kid shouldn't play/pirate it. As simple as it. He did play it and enjoy it somehow? Lost sale.

 

[jump_button]

Piracy is selling the game, im sure he not be happy if some one did it.

Not the same as copying