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[OverBlood 3]

Oh, how riveting, Lime is taking a higher-than-thou attitude to yet another topic.



The end. People had to pay for murdering 3,000 innocent human beings, and these fucks were supporting them, not to mention that a terrorist group was running a country.

What about all the innocents that have been murdered by drone attacks? Should people start bombing the US because of Obama? Plenty of people support him don't they? War does nothing but propagate more war and make certain companies very rich.

 

[Oersted]

who won?

Contractors. Like always.

The State Department paid nearly $4 billion for projects to aid in Afghan reconstruction from 2002 to 2013. $2.5 billion of that went to DynCorp—69% of all the money awarded by the State Department over almost the entire duration of the war.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...an-war-is-this-shady-military-contractor.html

Afghanistan was sheltering Bin Laden and Al Qaida which carrier out the attacks. The Taliban government was not willing to give them up.

Wasn't he mostly in Pakistan, a partner of USA?

snip

Thanks. It was a genuine question, not a factual statement

 

[Arc]

So... wait. Somebody flies a plane into a building, kills over 6000 people, and our response should have been "ooh, sorry for whatever we did to piss you guys off, we'll try to be better about that!"

Are you serious.

Like, is this a real post.

Unfortunately this kind of anti-America mentality is pretty prevelant on GAF.

 

[OverBlood 3]

Unfortunately this kind of anti-America mentality is pretty prevelant on GAF.

Yes how unfortunate.

 

[kamorra]

Unfortunately this kind of anti-America mentality is pretty prevelant on GAF.

Not saying that it's true but if it is what do you think is the reason for it? Your freedom?

 

[Arc]

Yes how unfortunate.

It's getting old.

 

[tornjaw]

.

 

[OverBlood 3]

It's getting old.

People have every right to criticise the US. What's getting old is black kids being gunned down for no reason by the very people that are supposed to protect them, that's old.

 

[Screaming Meat]

Dumbest war ever with a motivation equivalent of a temper tantrum.

Pretty sure you're confusing this with Iraq.

The Afghanistan war definitely had a valid motivation for the US to act (9/11 attacks). You can argue that the execution should have been better and we shouldn't have stayed 13 years, but not that they didn't have a valid reason for going in and blowing up Al Qaeda folks.

I thought the motivation was oil.

 

[kamorra]

People have every right to criticise the US. What's getting old is black kids being gunned down for no reason by the very people that are supposed to protect them, that's old.

Let's add Guantanamo and the NSA shenanigans.

 

[OverBlood 3]

Let's add Guantanamo and the NSA shenanigans.

Yep.

 

[NotBacon]

People have every right to criticise the US. What's getting old is black kids being gunned down for no reason by the very people that are supposed to protect them, that's old.

Ho boy

 

[Hank Scorpio]

So... wait. Somebody flies a plane into a building, kills over 6000 people

Wasn't it under 3,000?

 

[Anjelus_]

rl]



Wasn't he mostly in Pakistan, a partner of USA?

I know I shouldn't, but I can't stop myself:

He was being sheltered by the Taliban government. They had their dumb little training camps there. They were all set up and peachy there and the government wouldn't give them up. So the U.S. funded and supported the anti-Taliban resistance to drive them out, and they did.

I don't know if anyone knows for sure when UBL started hiding out in Pakistan, but he was in Afghanistan as late as Dec. '01 when the NA attacked Tora Bora. He didn't start out in Pakistan.

You don't even need to read a book, about 10 seconds of Wikipedia would have corrected you.

Also, Pakistan is a "partner" like the USSR was a "partner" in WW2. Common interests doesn't make us buddies, there's a reason why the gov. didn't advise them about the UBL raid. About a thousand reasons, actually.

 

[Strike]

Okay. We're still not going to leave though. We never do. So, uh, business as usual?

 

[Polari]

It's not over, and won't be for a very very long time. Good luck to the Afghani people picking up the pieces.

 

[diamount]

I'll give it a few more years before the Taliban are back in power.

 

[Xe4]

People have every right to criticise the US. What's getting old is black kids being gunned down for no reason by the very people that are supposed to protect them, that's old.

Yes, lets discuss that in a completely unrelated topic. And yes, you people have a right to criticize the US, but ya'll can get mighty irrational when doing so.

 

[Anjelus_]

As someone that spent a year doing nothing but serving a Battalion sized element as a trainer/adviser and occasionally going out on missions with them, I can assure you all that the time spent by other Soldiers/Sailors/Airmen/Marines is completely wasted.



They simply don't want to change. They're satisfied doing what they do and how they do it. Aside from really getting an understanding of how their military functions at the lowest levels it was a year of excuses as to why they couldn't train or the weather wasn't right, or a myriad of nonsense as to why they couldn't even be assed to wake up before noon.

The thing is, there's nothing inherently wrong with that. There's people like you describe -all over the world-. A lot of people in countries like that are extremely, 100 percent set in their ways. They haven't changed in hundreds or thousands of years, and they won't do it now just to benefit our personal national security interest.

Sure, they'd benefit from not having assholes like the Taliban around, in theory. But historically, Afghanistan has always been controlled by assholes of one group or another. I don't even mean that as a criticism, it's just true. When Alexander invaded he also met a bunch of asshole warlords. Some of their descendants are still there today being asshole warlords of the same tribes.

It doesn't matter to them what we want or how we do things because our presence there is and was just a temporary aberration that will soon be over.

I've met indigenous people in post-colonial states that live basically exactly the same as they have for a thousand years. Zero interest in "working" according to a "European" definition of the word, zero interest in going to college, etc. I don't even think that's bad, more power to them IMO.

I have no idea what'll happen to Afghanistan in 10 years. But yea, pretty damn certain there's not going to be any impulse in "changing" because really, what's happened in the last 10 years to motivate them that hasn't happened in the last 2,000? The government may collapse, it may flourish, whatever, your average Afghan is going to keep right on trucking either way.

 

[The Lamp]

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and there were no WMD's.

Iraq was also hit by sanctions and under a "no fly zone" since the first Gulf War. They were not the threat they were in the 90's.

There were no WMD found, but post invasion incestigations showed they could have resumed production, and Saddam did use chemical warfare. Apparently.

They were not responsible for 9/11 but it seems you didn't catch the rest of my post, because the White House considered Saddam a big enough threat after 9/11 to not leave him alone, for several reasons, regardless of the fact that they werent directly responsible for 9/11. He was an aggressor that terrorized his own people, ignored the UN, hated the U.S., attacked US planes and cheered the 9/11 attacks.

I just went to the George Bush presidential museum yesterday so that's the only reason info like this is fresh in my mind, and that's my only source for this info. They had a neat exhibit where you could make political decisions based off White House advice and CIA intelligence given at the time and see how it differed from what happened and what Bush decided.

 

[MacNille]

Lets hope that the Taliban don't get back to power now.

 

[DY_nasty]

I thought people would be happy that the US is officially transitioning out and taking the steps

but lol nm "mission accomplished" and "what about black kids" is just fine too

 

[Uncle_Classy]

Finally. Unfortunately, though, it won't be long before the next one.

 

[Cyd0nia]

Finally. Unfortunately, though, it won't be long before the next one.

Jeb Bush

Iraq 3
Iraq harder
Iraq with a vengeance

 

[davepoobond]

I thought people would be happy that the US is officially transitioning out and taking the steps

but lol nm "mission accomplished" and "what about black kids" is just fine too

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

It's an American motto up there with "don't tread on me"

 

[Lautaro]

The war against the Taliban was completely justified. The war on Iraq was what ruined everything: from the promise of stability in the region to the international post 9-11 support.

What's even the point of this announcement? from what I'm reading, the US is not actually withdrawing their forces.

 

[Anjelus_]

There were no WMD found, but post invasion incestigations showed they could have resumed production, and Saddam did use chemical warfare.

They were not responsible for 9/11 but it seems you didn't read the rest of my post, because the White House considered Saddam a big enough threat after 9/11 to not leave him alone, for several reasons.

I just went to the George Bush presidential museum yesterday so that's the only reason info like this is fresh in my mind.

All true, all valid, still not enough reason to go to war though. Not that anyone's asked my opinion, but i do think you need more than that.

Actually, it's not a thought, you -do- need more, because the government didn't sell the war on those grounds. They were adamant that Iraq had WMD and was an immediate threat.

To this day it bothers me nobody, as far as I know, was held responsible for that. I'm a big believer in command responsibility; the guy as the top takes the blame. I don't believe the public was intentionally misled, all the evidence seems to suggest we just messed up.

But see, that's like when you "accidentally" shoot someone in the head because you "thought the gun wasn't loaded." There's some mistakes that don't matter whether they were intentional or not, and they're so extreme you can't just apologize for them. Government officials using WMD to sell the war to the public and then turning out to have been wrong is on that same level.

I don't mean criminal charges. But it honestly seems to me like everyone, public and government included, has elected to forget the whole WMD issue and treat it as not too big a deal that none were found.

You never hear about it anymore, but IMO that was one of the biggest mistakes an administration has ever made. Not THE biggest, but at least in the top 5. If I had to rank it, it'd go:

1. Allowing America to self-destruct (Buchanon)

2. Intentionally destroying the Bank and national economy (Jackson)

3. "You know what's a good idea? European Colonialism!" (Teddy R.)

4. Blundering our way into Vietnam (although I do personally sympathize with LBJ and "get it," it was a big ass blunder)

5. Relying on unreliable and outright flawed evidence to invade a country (Bush)



p.s. I could make another far longer list of the best thing our administrations have done but that woud be off-topic

 

[Mgoblue201]

All we did was further destabilize the region making it easier for these type of groups to form.

But the situation was also really dire in the 90s. Afghanistan was involved in a series of civil wars for a decade after the Soviet-installed government collapsed. US and NATO intervention was only one part of a much larger crisis stretching back to the 70s. Not to downplay the immense human cost of the war, both in terms of civilian casualties and refugees, but in certain aspects things have improved. Afghans now have much better access to schooling and health care than they did 15 years ago. And if anyone can turn Afghanistan around, hopefully it's the current president, Ashraf Ghani, especially now that Pakistan is more committed to destroying rather than harboring or simply ignoring the militants within its own borders.

I wonder who funded the Taliban against the Soviets.

The Taliban didn't exist in the 80s. Yes, the US funded many different militants during that war against the Soviets, some of whom eventually joined the Taliban, but many of whom were on the losing side of Afghanistan's civil war. The connection between US funding of Afghan militants and the rise of the Taliban in the 90s isn't at all obvious or clear.

 

[The Lamp]

All true, all valid, still not enough reason to go to war though. Not that anyone's asked my opinion, but i do think you need more than that.

Actually, it's not a thought, you -do- need more, because the government didn't sell the war on those grounds. They were adamant that Iraq had WMD and was an immediate threat.

To this day it bothers me nobody, as far as I know, was held responsible for that. I'm a big believer in command responsibility; the guy as the top takes the blame. I don't believe the public was intentionally misled, all the evidence seems to suggest we just messed up.

But see, that's like when you "accidentally" shoot someone in the head because you "thought the gun wasn't loaded." There's some mistakes that don't matter whether they were intentional or not, and they're so extreme you can't just apologize for them. Government officials using WMD to sell the war to the public and then turning out to have been wrong is on that same level.

I don't mean criminal charges. But it honestly seems to me like everyone, public and government included, has elected to forget the whole WMD issue and treat it as not too big a deal that none were found.

You never hear about it anymore, but IMO that was one of the biggest mistakes an administration has ever made. Not THE biggest, but at least in the top 5. If I had to rank it, it'd go:

1. Allowing America to self-destruct (Buchanon)

2. Intentionally destroying the Bank and national economy (Jackson)

3. "You know what's a good idea? European Colonialism!" (Teddy R.)

4. Blundering our way into Vietnam (although I do personally sympathize with LBJ and "get it," it was a big ass blunder)

5. Relying on unreliable and outright flawed evidence to invade a country (Bush)



p.s. I could make another far longer list of the best thing our administrations have done but that woud be off-topic

Fair enough, I totally respect that.

 

[teruterubozu]

There were no WMD found, but post invasion incestigations showed they could have resumed production, and Saddam did use chemical warfare. Apparently.

They were not responsible for 9/11 but it seems you didn't catch the rest of my post, because the White House considered Saddam a big enough threat after 9/11 to not leave him alone, for several reasons, regardless of the fact that they werent directly responsible for 9/11. He was an aggressor that terrorized his own people, ignored the UN, hated the U.S., attacked US planes and cheered the 9/11 attacks.

I just went to the George Bush presidential museum yesterday so that's the only reason info like this is fresh in my mind, and that's my only source for this info. They had a neat exhibit where you could make political decisions based off White House advice and CIA intelligence given at the time and see how it differed from what happened and what Bush decided.

Ah so it's the George Bush version. I wondered where you got that. I'll still go with unrequited Daddy issues and an overbearing Dick Cheney.

 

[Anjelus_]

Ah so it's the George Bush version. I wondered where you got that. I'll still go with unrequited Daddy issues and an overbearing Dick Cheney.

It's either:

1. The President invades a nation because of daddy issues and the evil Wizard of Oz behind the scenes

or

2. Groupthink, incompetence and wishful thinking.

One of those is fairy tale, the other is psychology.

 

[everyday math]

Thank goodness. Turn to move on.

 

[xbhaskarx]

Leaving Afghanistan is dangerous.

The whole reason we got the Taliban was because after the Soviets left Afghanistan, the country was in shambles until a civil war broke out and the radicals gained control of the country.

There needs to be a sense of security where the Afghan people can defend themselves from fringe groups.

Don't worry, it won't be that long until the power vacuum is filled by an ISIS equivalent like it was after US troops left Iraq, and we have to send troops back into the region after they commit horrific atrocities.

 

[Phantast2k]

Deja Vu

Well Obama, so now you got more time to torture people and also kill a few more civilians by using drones

Beats the Soviet Union & killing civilians the old-fashioned way:
The War in Afghanistan (2001–present) has resulted in between 18,000 and 20,000 Afghan civilians being killed.
vs.
The Soviet war in Afghanistan lasted nine years from December 1979 to February 1989. The decade-long war resulted in the death of 850,000–1.5 million civilians.

 

[RustyNails]

Wasn't he mostly in Pakistan, a partner of USA?

No, he was in Afghanistan. Remember the Tora Bora mountains? He escaped to Pakistan soon after.

 

[potam]

No, he was in Afghanistan. Remember the Tora Bora mountains? He escaped to Pakistan soon after.

Read the book Kill Bin Laden. It's fucking tragic. OBL was on the radios at the very beginning of the war allowing the dudes in Tora Bora to surrender without guilt. We had that motherfucker. Hell, they possibly had eyes on him. Unfortunately they weren't allowed to lay down mines along the Afghanistan/Pakistan border, and didn't have too much help from Pakistan in plugging up the border.

This was mainly aimed at the dude you were replying to, but it's good info regardless.

 

[Dai101]

who won?

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Good. Now let's focus on something more important..like Benghazi.

 

[Mesousa]

What about all the innocents that have been murdered by drone attacks? Should people start bombing the US because of Obama? Plenty of people support him don't they? War does nothing but propagate more war and make certain companies very rich.

Brown lives don't matter to the vast majority of Americans.

 

[teruterubozu]

It's either:

1. The President invades a nation because of daddy issues and the evil Wizard of Oz behind the scenes

or

2. Groupthink, incompetence and wishful thinking.

One of those is fairy tale, the other is psychology.

I would argue they're both psychological and equally fantastic.

 

[potam]

Brown lives don't matter to the vast majority of Americans.

I want to tell you to shut the fuck up, but I don't want to get banned.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

NATO better funnel a fuckton of aid.

 

[foxtrot3d]

Dumbest war ever with a motivation equivalent of a temper tantrum.

The level of snark and ignorance in this thread is pretty outstanding.

 

[Mesousa]

I want to tell you to shut the fuck up, but I don't want to get banned.

Them jimmies rustled?

 

[Kill Your Masters]

All true, all valid, still not enough reason to go to war though. Not that anyone's asked my opinion, but i do think you need more than that.

Actually, it's not a thought, you -do- need more, because the government didn't sell the war on those grounds. They were adamant that Iraq had WMD and was an immediate threat.

To this day it bothers me nobody, as far as I know, was held responsible for that. I'm a big believer in command responsibility; the guy as the top takes the blame. I don't believe the public was intentionally misled, all the evidence seems to suggest we just messed up.

But see, that's like when you "accidentally" shoot someone in the head because you "thought the gun wasn't loaded." There's some mistakes that don't matter whether they were intentional or not, and they're so extreme you can't just apologize for them. Government officials using WMD to sell the war to the public and then turning out to have been wrong is on that same level.

I don't mean criminal charges. But it honestly seems to me like everyone, public and government included, has elected to forget the whole WMD issue and treat it as not too big a deal that none were found.

You never hear about it anymore, but IMO that was one of the biggest mistakes an administration has ever made. Not THE biggest, but at least in the top 5. If I had to rank it, it'd go:

1. Allowing America to self-destruct (Buchanon)

2. Intentionally destroying the Bank and national economy (Jackson)

3. "You know what's a good idea? European Colonialism!" (Teddy R.)

4. Blundering our way into Vietnam (although I do personally sympathize with LBJ and "get it," it was a big ass blunder)

5. Relying on unreliable and outright flawed evidence to invade a country (Bush)



p.s. I could make another far longer list of the best thing our administrations have done but that woud be off-topic

USA invading Iraq and Afghanistan is basically the same as white cops shooting blacks in america, just on a bigger scale.

No fucks are given.

#notallworldpolice

 

[teruterubozu]

The level of snark and ignorance in this thread is pretty outstanding.

Thanks for your snarky contribution.

 

[Oersted]

I thought people would be happy that the US is officially transitioning out and taking the steps

but lol nm "mission accomplished" and "what about black kids" is just fine too

Just as a reminder, there are still over 10000 soldiers and around 100000 private contractors. This isn't quite over yet.

snip

You mixed something up there.

 

[BearFlexington]

We created the Taliban to fight the Russians. Then, when no longer had need of their services, reined in resources, leaving them to be slaughtered. Then terrorists, many of which were identified as Saudi, with mysterious funding, attack the World Trade Center. Rather than investigating the source of the funding (the smoking gun really) we attack Iraq. Then Osama Bin Laden, an ex-CIA asset, claims responsibility for the attacks, justifying the invasion of Afghanistan. Later, Osama bin Laden is killed (not captured which would have allowed us to untangle the terrorist web) in a compound in Pakistan with no footage and only a Kathryn Bigalow movie to detail the events. And of course his body is disposed of at sea in case anyone wanted to confirm the legitimacy of the story put forth by the Obama administration.

Seems like a game of pitch and catch. Bush set it up, Obama took it home.

 

[foxtrot3d]

Thanks for your snarky contribution.

No problem. But if I am being serious I have no intention of getting involved in this "discussion" after seeing posts like the one I quoted.

EDIT:

We created the Taliban to fight the Russians. Then, when no longer had need of their services, reined in resources, leaving them to be slaughtered. Then terrorists, many of which were identified as Saudi, with mysterious funding, attack the World Trade Center. Rather than investigating the source of the funding (the smoking gun really) we attack Iraq. Then Osama Bin Laden, an ex-CIA asset, claims responsibility for the attacks, justifying the invasion of Afghanistan. Later, Osama bin Laden is killed (not captured which would have allowed us to untangle the terrorist web) in a compound in Pakistan with no footage and only a Kathryn Bigalow movie to detail the events. And of course his body is disposed of at sea in case anyone wanted to confirm the legitimacy of the story put forth by the Obama administration.

Did I miss anything?

Mission Accomplished!

Nope. I think you summed it all up perfectly.

 

[Dai101]

Of course Afghanistan was at fault for 9/11.

Nevermind the fact it holds $1tn's+ worth of natural resources.. ho hum.

Including opium.

I want to tell you to shut the fuck up, but I don't want to get banned.

U mad buddy?