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[TheMikado]

It's a spectrum. If it's really easy to be historically accurate, I support that. If you have to go to great lengths to find someone who looks like the historical figure then it's not worth it.

If you're making a movie about Jesus outside of the region that he came from, the Levant, then no it probably isn't super easy to find a similarly looking person. It's really not a good analogy for several reasons, including the fact that Jesus is portrayed as many different ethnicity's' across the globe for centuries.

If all of these things can be done easily, yes they should. It's also much easier to find an ethnic french women than the points mentioned. Here are her qualifications, which probably hundreds if not thousands of ethnic french qualify for as well.

"She responds to our four criteria -- a resident of Orleans for 10 years, a student in an Orleans high school, and a Catholic who gives her time to others."

I think it's important to respect the ethnic traditions of a region, to a reasonable degree. I can understand why ethnic french would be upset. I don't think it's that hard to see why.

Have all the previous Joan of Arcs been ethnically French?

 

[Deleted member 12837]

Y'all snitches.

Well, he was already banned before my post. His posting history spoke for itself. I don't have any issues calling out a troll.

 

[SatansReverence]

I can assure you everyday somewhere in America, some person, child, whatever is playing a role which conflicts with their race ethnicity.

I haven't and wouldn't deny it.

What constitutes a citywide celebration? Can it be a local play? A parade? An event? Etc.

For it to be comparable to the origin of this thread it would need to be at least a parade to multi day event.

Further I never claimed anything about outrage so I’m not sure where that came from unless you misread something.

Thats fair but I don't think I said I cared about it happening in general, just pointed out the hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance of those who would indeed be up in arms if the roles were reversed.

I’m ready to start this charade when you are.

3...

2..

1.

Go!

 

[TheMikado]

I haven't and wouldn't deny it.



For it to be comparable to the origin of this thread it would need to be at least a parade to multi day event.



Thats fair but I don't think I said I cared about it happening in general, just pointed out the hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance of those who would indeed be up in arms if the roles were reversed.



3...

2..

1.

Go!

Alright easy enough

Almost every Nativity scene ever in the US including the Radio City annual Nativity scene. We can even quantify it with your requirements of “outrage” if you want.

So my question becomes where is the hypocrisy for something that has been done across the nation in events parades and etc hundreds of times over in a similarly religious event with ethnic origins. Where is this huge outrage that must obviously be occurring over the use of white actors playing as other ethnicities across the nation during a religious event?

I’m honestly confused about what hypocrisy you are claiming when an arguably far larger and far more religious event is allowed to be co opted not just nationally by the world over with little outrage.

 

[SatansReverence]

Alright easy enough

Almost every Nativity scene ever in the US including the Radio City annual Nativity scene. We can even quantify it with your requirements of “outrage” if you want.

So my question becomes where is the hypocrisy for something that has been done across the nation in events parades and etc hundreds of times over in a similarly religious event with ethnic origins. Where is this huge outrage that must obviously be occurring over the use of white actors playing as other ethnicities across the nation during a religious event?

I’m honestly confused about what hypocrisy you are claiming when an arguably far larger and far more religious event is allowed to be co opted not just nationally by the world over with little outrage.

Jesus Mary and Joseph have almost exclusively been portrayed as white characters throughout history so unless I'm not seeing that image correctly, I'm not sure why you've brought it up in particular. Also I did note that I didn't deny misappropriation of race in these kinds of things.

Another thing worth noting is that the roman empire was so vast during the time around the birth of jesus that it's not exactly impossible that they were white or mixed race.

The only outrage that I could find regarding the radiocity nativity thing was from PETA because they used live animals. Not exactly relevant to the discussion tbh.

The hypocrisy I'm referring to would be clear if you had read my first post.

So to summarise, I don't personally care about the issue of the topic because it doesn't appear to be a "diversity for diversity sake" situation. I don't like it when the exact kind of person who would be against it only if it was a minority groups character being "white washed" acts as though everything is fine.

 

[take_it_easy]

Have all the previous Joan of Arcs been ethnically French?

If they were, would you then support the outrage?

Based on the current criteria it's a very safe bet that the vast majority of the actresses have been ethnically french.

 

[Alx]

Just to be clear : there is no such thing as "ethnically French".

 

[take_it_easy]

Just to be clear : there is no such thing as "ethnically French".

"Ethnic groups, derived from the same historical founder population, often continue to speak related languages and share a similar gene pool." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group

"an ethnic group; a social group that shares a common and distinctiveculture, religion, language, or the like:" - http://www.dictionary.com/browse/ethnicity

So what ethnicity was joan of arc?

"The French (French: Français) are an ethnic group[27][28][29] and nation who are identified with the country of France. " -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_people

https://www.quora.com/How-do-ethnic-French-people-differ-in-looks-to-ethnic-Brits

Ethnicity is complex and always changing. But for simplicity I think it's safe to say Joan of Arc was ethnically french. I'd be open to learning more though. You could break down the french ethnicity even further by sub regions probably.


I think this is getting off topic. My original point...or the point I'd like to make, is it's understandable why some people in France would be upset. I'm not saying I am upset or that it's wrong that she was chosen. Just that criticism of her being chosen does not seem unfounded.

 

[Clix]

Educate yourself

25 Times White Actors Played People Of Color And No One Really Gave A S**t

The article makes some fair points but it went of the rails when they mentioned Ben Affleck.

I am what you would call “Latino” and we are as much of a race as saying Canadian is a race.

Or heritage can be European, African, Asian, Native American, etc.

The guy Affleck played is European descent and in fact enjoyed having Ben play him and advocated for him when it was approached.

So does that mean Ben Affleck shouldn’t have played someone of Italian descent in some of his movies?

That DiCaprio shouldn’t have played Howard Hughes because Leo is Italian descent?

These articles make me feel like if I come from some magical kingdom where we are all one race instead of coming over on boats like immigrants who came to the United States...

I am Latino as fuck, and my family came from Spain, France and Italy in the 19th and early 20th century.

 

[LordPezix]

What?! As long as the story and the merits of her life are accurately depicted I don't see an issue with her not having an exact skin match.

This may be different for characters who's very story revolved around race, such as MLK or Malcolm X, I might understand. But the story of Joan of Arc is a religious, state, and gender orientated story, her skin color has nothing to do with any of it.

But it's cool, now we know which of these fucking bastards that live among us are racists pieces of shit.

 

[TrainedRage]

Just to be clear : there is no such thing as "ethnically French".

please explain....

 

[SatansReverence]

What?! As long as the story and the merits of her life are accurately depicted I don't see an issue with her not having an exact skin match.

I wonder if you would hold to that conviction if the race rolls were reversed.

 

[Vicetrailia]

I wonder if you would hold to that conviction if the race rolls were reversed.

You don't. Your purity testing to keep the race baiting going is pretty gross dude.

 

[SatansReverence]

You don't. Your purity testing to keep the race baiting going is pretty gross dude.

Actually, I do.

Definition of race-baiting
: the making of verbal attacks against members of a racial group

Something doesn't add up here, I wonder what?

 

[Vicetrailia]

Actually, I do.



Something doesn't add up here, I wonder what?

Taking finger wagging and disengenuos arguments to the next level, people are right to make you sign disclaimer waivers before you can engage them.

 

[SatansReverence]

Taking finger wagging and disengenuos arguments to the next level, people are right to make you sign disclaimer waivers before you can engage them.

disingenuous
adjective
not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.

I'm not seeing how that applies. Unless you're assuming that I don't actually have any care in the world if that user would hold the same convictions if the rolls were reversed. To which I say how fucking dare you assume what I am thinking.

And your post comes across as straight up accusing me of making racist remarks, if so, I'm going to tell you to back them up.

 

[Alx]

please explain....

For basically the same reason there is no "American ethnicity", there is no "French ethnicity". The French population isn't based on a common ancestry, but on the merging and assimilation of many different populations. And ever since the French revolution in the 18th century, the whole concept of French nation is based on citizenship alone. Which is also why "French Canadians" for example aren't considered French at all.

 

[SatansReverence]

For basically the same reason there is no "American ethnicity", there is no "French ethnicity". The French population isn't based on a common ancestry, but on the merging and assimilation of many different populations. And ever since the French revolution in the 18th century, the whole concept of French nation is based on citizenship alone. Which is also why "French Canadians" for example aren't considered French at all.

ethnicity

noun
the fact or state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition.

You seem to have mistaken the word. Would you perhaps be referring to racial group?

 

[LordPezix]

I wonder if you would hold to that conviction if the race rolls were reversed.

I would, like I said, unless it is character who's story is being told as a reflection of their skin color, then I can see people getting up in arms about it.

To me it doesn't matter, I just don't care enough. If they made a story about the revolutionary war and had Samuel Jackson play George Washington, I wouldn't give two shits.

 

[SatansReverence]

I would, like I said, unless it is character who's story is being told as a reflection of their skin color, than I can see people getting up in arms about it.

To me it doesn't matter, I just don't care enough. If they made a story about the revolutionary war and had Samuel Jackson play George Washington, I wouldn't give two shits.

Well, I'm more referring to having a movie about, say, ghandi played by elijah wood or some such. Or martin luther king played by Ryan Reynolds.

But fair do's if you say it wouldn't bother you

 

[LordPezix]

Well, I'm more referring to having a movie about, say, ghandi played by elijah wood or some such. Or martin luther king played by Ryan Reynolds.

But fair do's if you say it wouldn't bother you

Right, I agree. Characters who's lives and actions were important because of racial focus should be appropriately depicted.

What I was trying to say in my first post, was that the story of Joan Arc, wasn't racially focused but more religious and gender focused. Therefor, it shouldn't matter the skin color of the actor because racial stigmas shouldn't be apart of the story.

Unless my history is wrong?

 

[Alx]

You seem to have mistaken the word. Would you perhaps be referring to racial group?

The fact is that ethnicity has a vague and changing definition, but usually comes with the concept of ancestry. Which doesn't work with the French population. If we go with the definition "share national culture and tradition", then anybody raised in France is "ethnically French", including the girl in the OP. As a matter of fact, that would also mean that Joan of Arc wouldn't be of the same "ethnicity" as any living French, since she spoke a different language and shared different traditions.

 

[TheMikado]

"Ethnic groups, derived from the same historical founder population, often continue to speak related languages and share a similar gene pool." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group

"an ethnic group; a social group that shares a common and distinctiveculture, religion, language, or the like:" - http://www.dictionary.com/browse/ethnicity

So what ethnicity was joan of arc?

"The French (French: Français) are an ethnic group[27][28][29] and nation who are identified with the country of France. " -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_people

https://www.quora.com/How-do-ethnic-French-people-differ-in-looks-to-ethnic-Brits

Ethnicity is complex and always changing. But for simplicity I think it's safe to say Joan of Arc was ethnically french. I'd be open to learning more though. You could break down the french ethnicity even further by sub regions probably.


I think this is getting off topic. My original point...or the point I'd like to make, is it's understandable why some people in France would be upset. I'm not saying I am upset or that it's wrong that she was chosen. Just that criticism of her being chosen does not seem unfounded.

Great, now I have to come in here and do this again....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_people

Genetics[edit]
Haplogroup R1b (Y-DNA), typical in all West European populations.

France has been influenced by the many different human migrations that wide-crossed Europe over time. Prehistoric and Neolithic population movements could have influenced the genetic diversity of this country. A study in 2009 analysed 555 French individuals from 7 different regions in mainland France and found the following Y-DNA Haplogroups. The five main haplogroups are R1 (63.41%), E (11.41%) (traced mostly in the Paris area), I (8.88%), J (7.97%) and G (5.16%). R1b (particularly R1b1b2) was found to be the most dominant Y chromosomal lineage in France, covering about 60% of the Y chromosomal lineages. The high frequency of this haplogroup is typical in all West European populations. Haplogroups I and G are also characteristic markers for many different West European populations. Haplogroups J and E1b1b (M35, M78, M81 and M34) consist of lineages with differential distribution within Middle East, North Africa and Europe. Only adults with French surnames were analyzed by the study.[66][67]

Genetically the girls ancestry is from a shared regions so she would be considered "ethnically French"

Further the claim of ethnicity of previous girls beyond white would be a losing bet as I went back to look at the past 5 girls who are selected from local high schools and they seem to have visually differing ethnic origins with some even appearing to have spanish ancestry, which again attributes to the genetic diversity of French which would also make this girl ethnically french.

"When asked by the Est Republicaine newspaper whether it was important that this year's Joan of Arc was mixed-race Mathilde shrugged her shoulders and said: "It's not really important. She can be white or mixed race, but what is important is that she's French."

So my point being is that they have traditionally had various Joans of varying decent. If we are talking about ethnicity then are we going by genetics? Family ancestry? What exactly is the criteria for being ethnic french enough?

 

[TheMikado]

Jesus Mary and Joseph have almost exclusively been portrayed as white characters throughout history so unless I'm not seeing that image correctly, I'm not sure why you've brought it up in particular. Also I did note that I didn't deny misappropriation of race in these kinds of things.

Another thing worth noting is that the roman empire was so vast during the time around the birth of jesus that it's not exactly impossible that they were white or mixed race.

The only outrage that I could find regarding the radiocity nativity thing was from PETA because they used live animals. Not exactly relevant to the discussion tbh.

The hypocrisy I'm referring to would be clear if you had read my first post.

So to summarise, I don't personally care about the issue of the topic because it doesn't appear to be a "diversity for diversity sake" situation. I don't like it when the exact kind of person who would be against it only if it was a minority groups character being "white washed" acts as though everything is fine.

First I would like to say I let you set the goalposts yourself before and even engaged you and you still couldn't score and not you want to change the game rules in the middle of play.

The most ironic thing about this is that you level the complaint of hypocrisy where you claim the left changes the rules and criteria in one situation and not another to suit their argument and needs. YET you encapsulate that entire hypocrisy.

Let me start with a quote from page one.
"No one really gave a shit" has but one implication. Again, did you actually pass grade 3 english?

The rest of the article either 1) Points to old movies from the 60's and earlier. 2) uses pathetically flimsy examples 3) Virtually every single modern one has outrage attached to it.

Stay losing "

I mean I'm still laughing my butt off because I presented you with a modern example and you pull the playbook of attempting to change the rules to suit your victim complex.

Your argument then became, "Jesus Mary and Joseph have almost exclusively been portrayed as white characters throughout history so unless I'm not seeing that image correctly, I'm not sure why you've brought it up in particular" Please refer back to page 1 "Virtually every single modern one has outrage attached to it."

Then comes the capper. "Another thing worth noting is that the roman empire was so vast during the time around the birth of jesus that it's not exactly impossible that they were white or mixed race."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_appearance_of_Jesus
Most scholars consequently believe that Jesus was similar in appearance to the modern inhabitants of the Middle East, due to the Bible (and other historical accounts) equivocally referring to him as a Galilean Israelite.

By the 19th century, theories that Jesus was non-Semitic were being developed, with writers suggesting he was variously white, black, Indian, or some other race.[6] However, as in other cases of the assignment of race to Biblical individuals, these claims have been mostly pseudoscientific, based on cultural stereotypes, ethnocentrism, and societal trends rather than on scientific analysis or historical method.[7]:18

So now we have you delve into the realm of anti fact and pseudoscience in a desperate attempt to reclaim victimhood in this scenario.

Now to your claim:
II don't like it when the exact kind of person who would be against it only if it was a minority groups character being "white washed" acts as though everything is fine.

There will always be those people. There is no getting around it, however your claim here:
Virtually every single modern one has outrage attached to it.

Is unequivocally false. You then you false narratives and pseudoscience in, as I have already stated, a desperate and frankly pathetic attempt to claim victim hood as if white actors playing other ethnicity has never been ignored or allowed without controversy even in modern times. Then as I said you claim that the hypocrisy of those who would seek to change the rules and claim that certain situations are "different" in order to remain victims is something you detest yet it was your fail safe tactic with the combination of false narratives and pseudoscience. Literally the most hilarious aspect of all this is the complaints of hypocrisy while literally using the exact same tactics you claim to hate. And, if in fact those tactics where liberal staples, I would presume you would be liberal merely for you being so adept at them.

 

[Vicetrailia]

I'm not seeing how that applies. Unless you're assuming that I don't actually have any care in the world if that user would hold the same convictions if the rolls were reversed. To which I say how fucking dare you assume what I am thinking.

And your post comes across as straight up accusing me of making racist remarks, if so, I'm going to tell you to back them up.

It wouldn't surprise me if you are racist. But I'd like to know how you figured that I called you racist.

 

[Durask]

IMHO if you are a culture warrior you should be happy that she FEELS that she is French.

 

[SatansReverence]

First I would like to say I let you set the goalposts yourself before and even engaged you and you still couldn't score and not you want to change the game rules in the middle of play.

How did I change the rules? By not counting some PETA rage? This is a thread about racism. Ever heard of false equivalency?

The most ironic thing about this is that you level the complaint of hypocrisy where you claim the left changes the rules and criteria in one situation and not another to suit their argument and needs. YET you encapsulate that entire hypocrisy.

Yea, sure, whatever you say. Except, you're completely wrong.

Seems like you're resorting to ad hominem in lieu of real arguments.

Let me start with a quote from page one.
"No one really gave a shit" has but one implication. Again, did you actually pass grade 3 english?

The rest of the article either 1) Points to old movies from the 60's and earlier. 2) uses pathetically flimsy examples 3) Virtually every single modern one has outrage attached to it.

Stay losing "

I mean I'm still laughing my butt off because I presented you with a modern example and you pull the playbook of attempting to change the rules to suit your victim complex.

Victim complex? Because I haven't, several times in this thread, said that I don't actually care about the situation at hand. But good work once again. 10/10

Your argument then became, "Jesus Mary and Joseph have almost exclusively been portrayed as white characters throughout history so unless I'm not seeing that image correctly, I'm not sure why you've brought it up in particular" Please refer back to page 1 "Virtually every single modern one has outrage attached to it."

I love the side stepping of the part about as characters throughout history they have been depicted as white. Of the oldest depictions of Jesus some are dark skinned, some are light skinned and the first high quality surviving piece is very clearly a white man. But hey, history, right?

And great job completely decontextualising my quote. Do you even know what a strawman is? That was in direct reference to that pathetically researched huffpo article.

Then comes the capper. "Another thing worth noting is that the roman empire was so vast during the time around the birth of jesus that it's not exactly impossible that they were white or mixed race."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_appearance_of_Jesus
Most scholars consequently believe that Jesus was similar in appearance to the modern inhabitants of the Middle East, due to the Bible (and other historical accounts) equivocally referring to him as a Galilean Israelite.

By the 19th century, theories that Jesus was non-Semitic were being developed, with writers suggesting he was variously white, black, Indian, or some other race.[6] However, as in other cases of the assignment of race to Biblical individuals, these claims have been mostly pseudoscientific, based on cultural stereotypes, ethnocentrism, and societal trends rather than on scientific analysis or historical method.[7]:18

Doesn't actually refute my claim. Look up.

So now we have you delve into the realm of anti fact and pseudoscience in a desperate attempt to reclaim victimhood in this scenario.

I must be the worst victim in the world...

Now to your claim:
II don't like it when the exact kind of person who would be against it only if it was a minority groups character being "white washed" acts as though everything is fine.

There will always be those people. There is no getting around it, however your claim here:
Virtually every single modern one has outrage attached to it.

Is unequivocally false. You then you false narratives and pseudoscience in, as I have already stated, a desperate and frankly pathetic attempt to claim victim hood as if white actors playing other ethnicity has never been ignored or allowed without controversy even in modern times. Then as I said you claim that the hypocrisy of those who would seek to change the rules and claim that certain situations are "different" in order to remain victims is something you detest yet it was your fail safe tactic with the combination of false narratives and pseudoscience. Literally the most hilarious aspect of all this is the complaints of hypocrisy while literally using the exact same tactics you claim to hate. And, if in fact those tactics where liberal staples, I would presume you would be liberal merely for you being so adept at them.

Again, look up. Completely taking that quote out of context.

And I've even said I don't believe that it never happens.

At the top of this page

I said:

TheMikado said:

I can assure you everyday somewhere in America, some person, child, whatever is playing a role which conflicts with their race ethnicity.

I haven't and wouldn't deny it.

Try again...

It wouldn't surprise me if you are racist. But I'd like to know how you figured that I called you racist.

And your post comes across as straight up accusing me of making racist remarks, if so, I'm going to tell you to back them up.

Now you aren't even trying...

 

[blu]

Educate yourself

25 Times White Actors Played People Of Color And No One Really Gave A S**t

Ok, I might be going overly technical for this thread, but while some of the examples in that list are obvious, I'm having a hard time with the biblical figures. Aren't those predominantly Israelites, and if so, how are people of 'mixed-European' descent so far from those to depict them? I mean, Jews had to wear the Star of David in nazi Germany for the sake of visual segregation from the 'pure' Arians, as in reality those two were fairly indistinguishable, traditional clothing aside.

Also, 'mixed-Europeans' is an ultra-generalization -- Europens do not begin and end with Anglo-Saxons -- there's sufficient skin tone variation among 'mixed-Europeans' (e.g. Southern Europeans vs Nordics), so that a Sicilian Italian should have zero problems portraying Moses (not that I mind Christian Bale in the role).

/off-topic

I'm glad for the kid -- she sounds like a talented youngster, and a overly-good pick for the role in a town festival.

 

[Vicetrailia]

Now you aren't even trying...

You seem to keep focusing on some out of context, small, but rigid technicality. And yet, you still miss the point. It isn't productive.

Pointing out "if so" is completely irrelevant, because I'm still asking you for the root cause regardless of what I actually thought.

Something made you think that I called you racist. I apparently missed it if you couldn't tell, so I'd like to know from which context you saw that. If you don't feel like going over it then fine, but I didn't find your reply to be relevant.

 

[take_it_easy]

Great, now I have to come in here and do this again....

Genetically the girls ancestry is from a shared regions so she would be considered "ethnically French"

This is silly. She is not ethnically french.

"The 17-year-old, whose father is from Benin and whose mother is Polish" - OPs article https://www.thelocal.fr/20180222/frances-first-mixed-race-joan-of-arc-targeted-by-racists

Further the claim of ethnicity of previous girls beyond white would be a losing bet as I went back to look at the past 5 girls who are selected from local high schools and they seem to have visually differing ethnic origins with some even appearing to have spanish ancestry, which again attributes to the genetic diversity of French which would also make this girl ethnically french.

This is not evidence that they were not ethnically french. They could be mixed ethnically spanish and french. Do you have any actual evidence a non-ethnic french playing the role? Your visual guess does not count for me.

"When asked by the Est Republicaine newspaper whether it was important that this year's Joan of Arc was mixed-race Mathilde shrugged her shoulders and said: "It's not really important. She can be white or mixed race, but what is important is that she's French."

I agree with this sentiment. She is french. I also understand how an ethnic french person could be offended. I'm not saying they SHOULD be offended.

So my point being is that they have traditionally had various Joans of varying decent. If we are talking about ethnicity then are we going by genetics? Family ancestry? What exactly is the criteria for being ethnic french enough?

[/QUOTE]

Once again your visual guess is not evidence. There is evidence(OPs article) that the current years choice is not ethnically french. Based on the available evidence at least. Any concrete evidence to the contrary would probably have been brought up...like a distant french relative.

What exactly is the criteria for being ethnic french enough?

Like I've said before it's a spectrum. Maybe if her parents were from Belgium or Luxenburg there would be significant overlap between genetics and culture, with shared geographic region and language. However she is Polish and Benin. To me it seems reasonable that ethnic poles are not also ethnic french,italian,greek,russian,swede...ect. That seems silly. I really don't get why or how you think she is ethnic french. She doesn't have to be ethnic french either to be qualified for the role by their current standards. ALL I'm saying is I can understand how it's upsetting for an ethnic group A to be offended at another ethnic person B/C playing the lead role in ethnic group A's tradition. In the end it's for one year, and she IS French. I wouldn't be upset.

Hopefully that makes sense

 

[Unknown Quantity]

Well, I'm more referring to having a movie about, say, ghandi played by elijah wood or some such. Or martin luther king played by Ryan Reynolds.

But fair do's if you say it wouldn't bother you

Ben Kingsley wasn't a controversial enough choice.

This thread seems to be circling the drain and all points have been painfully explored, so I say that's that for me, have fun.

 

[RokkanStoned]

I'm surprised this thread has 3 pages. As I see it, this is a local festival, they decide themselves if they want it to be historically accurate or not, and to what degree, when choosing actors. It really shouldn't be an issue heightened to this level, and branding someone as a racist for wanting people to be closer in looks of the historical person, is also unhelpful. Outrage on both sides, sigh, and I'm sure both sides are hypocrites as well if a case where it was turned around appeared.

 

[TheMikado]

This is silly. She is not ethnically french.

"The 17-year-old, whose father is from Benin and whose mother is Polish" - OPs article https://www.thelocal.fr/20180222/frances-first-mixed-race-joan-of-arc-targeted-by-racists
This is not evidence that they were not ethnically french. They could be mixed ethnically spanish and french. Do you have any actual evidence a non-ethnic french playing the role? Your visual guess does not count for me.
I agree with this sentiment. She is french. I also understand how an ethnic french person could be offended. I'm not saying they SHOULD be offended.
Once again your visual guess is not evidence. There is evidence(OPs article) that the current years choice is not ethnically french. Based on the available evidence at least. Any concrete evidence to the contrary would probably have been brought up...like a distant french relative.

Like I've said before it's a spectrum. Maybe if her parents were from Belgium or Luxenburg there would be significant overlap between genetics and culture, with shared geographic region and language. However she is Polish and Benin. To me it seems reasonable that ethnic poles are not also ethnic french,italian,greek,russian,swede...ect. That seems silly. I really don't get why or how you think she is ethnic french. She doesn't have to be ethnic french either to be qualified for the role by their current standards. ALL I'm saying is I can understand how it's upsetting for an ethnic group A to be offended at another ethnic person B/C playing the lead role in ethnic group A's tradition. In the end it's for one year, and she IS French. I wouldn't be upset.

Hopefully that makes sense

I would also counter this by saying there is not evidence that she is also not ethnically French. We have no idea why she is in France to begin with. Is her mother from Poland and half French? Or possibly her father is part french due to the colonization in that region which is why there is a significant shared genetic DNA between that region of Africa and the western Europe. My point being is that without genetic testing we have no means of determining what her ancestry actually is. That's the point. You are presuming her family ethnicity from where they are from location wise. This is why the ethnic argument does not make sense because we do not know for sure whether she does or does not have ethnically French ancestry the article does not give enough detail beyond her parents place of origin to determine her ancestry.

What we do know:
Benin is a French colony and the official language is French.

Colonization
With the end of slavery, the Kingdom of Dahomey lost its revenue source and began an economic decline. The French defeated Dahomey in a series of wars between 1890 and 1894, and eventually, both Benin and Togo (minus an area under British control) became part of French West Africa. One result of the French colonial period was that, in many cases, French West Africans had certain citizenship or other rights under French law; over time, African communities sprang up in France and other parts of Europe. In 1960, both Benin and Togo declared independence.

Therefore, even beyond this circumstance, it is quite possible her Father and previous ancestors were French citizens for generations. So how many a generation or two unless there is a qualifier on the number of generations they would need to be French citizens to be considered ethnically French and the is ignoring the possibility that her father or mother could have French ancestry.

 

[TheMikado]

How did I change the rules? By not counting some PETA rage? This is a thread about racism. Ever heard of false equivalency?
Yea, sure, whatever you say. Except, you're completely wrong.
Seems like you're resorting to ad hominem in lieu of real arguments.
Victim complex? Because I haven't, several times in this thread, said that I don't actually care about the situation at hand. But good work once again. 10/10
I love the side stepping of the part about as characters throughout history they have been depicted as white. Of the oldest depictions of Jesus some are dark skinned, some are light skinned and the first high quality surviving piece is very clearly a white man. But hey, history, right?
And great job completely decontextualising my quote. Do you even know what a strawman is? That was in direct reference to that pathetically researched huffpo article.
Doesn't actually refute my claim. Look up.
I must be the worst victim in the world...
Again, look up. Completely taking that quote out of context.
And I've even said I don't believe that it never happens.
At the top of this page
Try again...

I will simply use your own words against you.

1) There is no false equivalence. "Virtually every single modern one has outrage attached to it." Except the example I used doesn't. Rather than saying you were right, I was wrong on this point you attempt to explain it away.
2) No. Your argument seems to be this. Liberals are always hypocrites. To prove this point I must show that every instance of a white person playing a different race is met with outrage. You are attempting to using point B to prove A. Thus you have to make point B true even when its not because if B isn't true, then your primary point isn't true. You don't care about point B beyond proving point A. Which is why you need point B to be true even when its not.
3)Victim Complex: In psychology a person who has a martyr complex, sometimes associated with the term victim complex, desires the feeling of being a martyr for his/her own sake, seeking out suffering or persecution because it either feeds a psychological need, or a desire to avoid responsibility. - Of course I cannot diagnosis this, but you are seeking to make point B true "Virtually every single modern one has outrage attached to it" when we have already established that its not true. Thus this displays a need to make a falsehood true for the sake of proving point A,
4) There is no side stepping I will use your own link as you seem to be sidestepping history as its ironic as you hate hyprocrisy.
https://churchpop.com/2015/03/09/6-of-the-oldest-images-of-jesus/

3rd Century Rome - Jesus

3rd Century

3rd Century

4th Century

4th Century

Your Example: 6TH CENTURY In case you are unsure 6 comes after 3 & 4 in fact the order is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6...

Which is commission by the Romans and drawn in the fashion they determined.

Yet in the upmost of hypocrisy you elect to accuse people of ignoring history while ignoring HUNDREDS of years of history in the very link YOU provided. DO YOU SEE THE IRONY??

4) Your claim that Jesus was white has been refuted by every reputable historical and biblical scholar.
Your're just being absurd and obtuse at this point.

Look to pull this all home and tie it to the thread.

In a festival celebrating an religious figure a girl who may or may not be of similar ethnic and genetic make-up portrays a historical figure.
There is outrage over this and your claim is that: "Virtually every single modern one has outrage attached to it"
This is proven not true, yet you attempt to use the methods to disprove it which you claim to hate so much as they are form of hypocrisy.

You ignore facts
You ignore historical context
You ignore counter argument and claim "this is different because reasons..."
Your only concern is to proven your primary point which is that: Everyone here knows if it was a black historical figure being portrayed by a white person there would be riots.
But you are wrong and refuse to admit you are wrong because it makes your claim of hypocrisy wrong.

So to use another phrase from you:

Stay losing

 

[TheMikado]

This is silly. She is not ethnically french.
Hopefully that makes sense

I also meant to add, there is no debate or concern on whether she is "ethnically french".
The debate of her not being ethnically French is an argument you concocted and is not supported in the article.

This is what their argument was:

"Joan of Arc was white," read one Twitter post. "We are white and proud of being white, don't change our history."

Another comment, on anti-Muslim site Resistance Republicaine, complained:

"Next year, Joan of Arc will be in a burqa."

Nothing was said of her being "ethnically French" and again this is an argument you invented in this thread which was not expressed in the article but the people you are claiming would be offended for this reason. These people made no such claim or concern.

 

[take_it_easy]

I would also counter this by saying there is not evidence that she is also not ethnically French. We have no idea why she is in France to begin with. Is her mother from Poland and half French? Or possibly her father is part french due to the colonization in that region which is why there is a significant shared genetic DNA between that region of Africa and the western Europe. My point being is that without genetic testing we have no means of determining what her ancestry actually is.

"The 17-year-old, whose father is from Benin and whose mother is Polish" - OPs article https://www.thelocal.fr/20180222/frances-first-mixed-race-joan-of-arc-targeted-by-racists

Hmm if only we had a source that explicitly said where her origins were from? Using common sense we could then assume she is not ethnic french. It's not 100% but this is a message board, not an extensive research paper with genetic testing.

That's the point. You are presuming her family ethnicity from where they are from location wise. This is why the ethnic argument does not make sense because we do not know for sure whether she does or does not have ethnically French ancestry the article does not give enough detail beyond her parents place of origin to determine her ancestry.

"The 17-year-old, whose father is from Benin and whose mother is Polish" - OPs article https://www.thelocal.fr/20180222/frances-first-mixed-race-joan-of-arc-targeted-by-racists
She is polish and benin. If you have any evidence otherwise that would be awesome!

What we do know:
Benin is a French colony and the official language is French.

Colonization
With the end of slavery, the Kingdom of Dahomey lost its revenue source and began an economic decline. The French defeated Dahomey in a series of wars between 1890 and 1894, and eventually, both Benin and Togo (minus an area under British control) became part of French West Africa. One result of the French colonial period was that, in many cases, French West Africans had certain citizenship or other rights under French law; over time, African communities sprang up in France and other parts of Europe. In 1960, both Benin and Togo declared independence.

Therefore, even beyond this circumstance, it is quite possible her Father and previous ancestors were French citizens for generations. So how many a generation or two unless there is a qualifier on the number of generations they would need to be French citizens to be considered ethnically French and the is ignoring the possibility that her father or mother could have French ancestry.

Good point! However, "The largest ethnic group are the Fon, with 1.7 million speakers of the Fon language (2001), followed by the various Yoruba groups (1.2 million), the Aja (600,000), the Bariba (460,000), the Ayizo (330,000), the Fulani (310,000), and the Gun (240,000). Near the ports in the south can be found many people who are descended from returned Brazilian slaves. There are also small numbers of Europeans, principally French, and people from the western Asia, mainly Lebanese, and East Asia, chiefly Indians. "

So yes, there is a chance she is part ethnic french, which is true for 50% of the world, particularly in the west. She could also be Lebanese! And Indian! Would you assume that though? No, because it's unlikely and not a certainty as you stated previously

Great, now I have to come in here and do this again....

Genetically the girls ancestry is from a shared regions so she would be considered "ethnically French"

By your logic she is also ethnic lebanese and indian! Or the more reasonable assumption...that she is ethnic benin and polish

 

[Pong]

French is a nationality, not an ethnicity. Same for the chinese nationality : under it you have dozens differents ethnic groups and the double of differents cultures.

Saying that a skin color that just testify the demographic evolution of the country isn’t apropriate to play an historical national figure is like denying someone the right to play because of hair or eye color.

Especially with that girl who is a fervent catholic and scout chieftain, when many of these far-right yawners only praise the militaristic figure of Joan, forgeting that she was burnt by the church for her mysticism.

And it’s supposed to be a public city parade, not a movie or a documentary, so it’s especially violent to accuse her because it’s a matter of citizenship and not only a professional acting representation.

 

[TheMikado]

"The 17-year-old, whose father is from Benin and whose mother is Polish" - OPs article https://www.thelocal.fr/20180222/frances-first-mixed-race-joan-of-arc-targeted-by-racists
Hmm if only we had a source that explicitly said where her origins were from? Using common sense we could then assume she is not ethnic french. It's not 100% but this is a message board, not an extensive research paper with genetic testing.
"The 17-year-old, whose father is from Benin and whose mother is Polish" - OPs article https://www.thelocal.fr/20180222/frances-first-mixed-race-joan-of-arc-targeted-by-racists
She is polish and benin. If you have any evidence otherwise that would be awesome!
Good point! However, "The largest ethnic group are the Fon, with 1.7 million speakers of the Fon language (2001), followed by the various Yoruba groups (1.2 million), the Aja (600,000), the Bariba (460,000), the Ayizo (330,000), the Fulani (310,000), and the Gun (240,000). Near the ports in the south can be found many people who are descended from returned Brazilian slaves. There are also small numbers of Europeans, principally French, and people from the western Asia, mainly Lebanese, and East Asia, chiefly Indians. "
So yes, there is a chance she is part ethnic french, which is true for 50% of the world, particularly in the west. She could also be Lebanese! And Indian! Would you assume that though? No, because it's unlikely and not a certainty as you stated previously
By your logic she is also ethnic lebanese and indian! Or the more reasonable assumption...that she is ethnic benin and polish

Why is she in France in the first place? I would argue because of French ancestry and I would make that argument because here are her parents and it should be abundantly clear that her father is not 100% ethnically Fon, Yoruba, or Aja.
The point I am making is we know nothing of her ancestry and its a very real possibility that her father is part "ethnically French" an argument that was never even made to begin with.

 

[Bolivar687]

I don't care as long as she's being portrayed by a Roman Catholic actress in full communion with the Church, especially on social issues.

 

[SatansReverence]

Stay losing

When your argument tactic is to use PETA rage in a thread about racism rage, there is no point arguing with you.

That is a false equivalency and you know it. You then go on to perform mental gymnastics to try and prove you're right.

I'm done here, nothing worth attempting to discuss with you. And no, I haven't "lost" anything but my will to continue this "discourse" if you could even call it that.

 

[TheMikado]

When your argument tactic is to use PETA rage in a thread about racism rage, there is no point arguing with you.

That is a false equivalency and you know it. You then go on to perform mental gymnastics to try and prove you're right.

I'm done here, nothing worth attempting to discuss with you. And no, I haven't "lost" anything but my will to continue this "discourse" if you could even call it that.

I said nothing about PETA rage. My point is that the Radio City display using white actors to play non-white actors every year creates no racial outrage. You're the one trying to bring PETA into this for some reason.
Possibly because you realize you argument is lost and really hate when your own words are used against you.

I mean I literally copied and pasted what you said on page 1 and now suddenly you don't like it, and yet still somehow want to cry about hypocrisy. This is why this conversation is laughable.

When your own words are repeated back to you, you cry and want to take your ball and go home. I'm literally copied your exact words you used on others from page 1 and now you don't want to play anymore.
boo hoo.

 

[SatansReverence]

When your own words are repeated back to you, you cry and want to take your ball and go home.

The fact you think I don't realise you're trying to use my own words against me and that I even cared about that statement is laughable.

Keep up the mental gynastics, you might win gold in tokyo 2020.

 

[TheMikado]

The fact you think I don't realise you're trying to use my own words against me and that I even cared about that statement is laughable.

Keep up the mental gynastics, you might win gold in tokyo 2020.

I feel like I was just insulted by a middle-schooler lol
No I just wanted to make sure the irony of your supposed hatred of hypocrisy isn't lost on you and I think I've already won this argument.

Hashtag# Stay losing

 

[take_it_easy]

Why is she in France in the first place? I would argue because of French ancestry and I would make that argument because here are her parents and it should be abundantly clear that her father is not 100% ethnically Fon, Yoruba, or Aja.
The point I am making is we know nothing of her ancestry and its a very real possibility that her father is part "ethnically French" an argument that was never even made to begin with.

Once again, your visual assumptions of ethnicity are not evidence. Stated facts from the OPs article are. This is my last comment in response to you. Neither of us are going to change each others mind.

 

[SatansReverence]

I feel like I was just insulted by a middle-schooler lol
No I just wanted to make sure the irony of your supposed hatred of hypocrisy isn't lost on you and I think I've already won this argument.

Hashtag# Stay losing

You've won nothing.

Every single "proof" you have is conjecture. There is not a single first hand account of Jesus' appearence in the bible that determines race. Every single artwork was long after his deaths, and degraded to a degree beyond uselessness to determine race.

Done with you now.

#ustilllosing

 

[betrayal]

I personally don't think it's a problem if mixed race girl from france plays Joan.

But what really pisses me off is how we became prone to such scenarios. Many probably think it has nothing to do with the left or right, but for me it is a prime example what intolerant people ultimately introduced to our society. The endless classifications in groups, minorities and whatever. What we're all happy about and the right fortunately couldn't do, the left did with ease. Divide humanity into countless categories. I can't imagine the outcry, if a white guy would incarnate a black person. The news would be all over it, new record hashtags introduced and many more examples of the stupidity of mankind, or at least a part of it.

 

[Airola]

You've won nothing.

Every single "proof" you have is conjecture. There is not a single first hand account of Jesus' appearence in the bible that determines race. Every single artwork was long after his deaths, and degraded to a degree beyond uselessness to determine race.

Done with you now.

#ustilllosing

Dude, wouldn't you think that because there aren't any passages that determine his race it might be because he was the same as the other people in that region at that time and no-one even thought to mention it just like they didn't mention the race of most of other people in the Bible? Wouldn't you think that if he was of different race it would've been mentioned at some point in some way?

 

[Alx]

The endless classifications in groups, minorities and whatever. What we're all happy about and the right fortunately couldn't do, the left did with ease. Divide humanity into countless categories.

Yeah it's especially annoying (and worrying) when it happens in countries like France, which like I mentioned earlier has actively worked for centuries to erase all concept of ethnic categories among citizens. Heck, ethnic statistics and registration are explicitly forbidden by law here, because it is considered that putting people in separate "boxes" is morally wrong and only causes trouble.

 

[MazeHaze]

If your reaction to this isn't "well that's shitty" but rather "how come black people can do it but whites can't! Huh?!' It tells me all I need to know about the kind of person you are.

 

[TheMikado]

Once again, your visual assumptions of ethnicity are not evidence. Stated facts from the OPs article are. This is my last comment in response to you. Neither of us are going to change each others mind.

Not an assumption and there is no need to see eye-to-eye over facts:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...assou-is-picked-to-play-joan-of-arc-h80c33b0m

The government has been forced to defend Mathilde Edey Gamassou, 17, whose grandfather is from the west African state of Benin....
Ms. Gamassou's father is Franco-Beninese. His father settled in France when he married a Frenchwoman.
Her mother is Polish. "I feel completely French," she said. "So what if I am mixed race?"

She has French ancestry. Her grandmother was French. Period. There's no need to debate the facts.

Now to address the claim of "not ethnically French". This phrase was never ever uttered in any compliant and was only a fabrication in this thread as a "complaint".
There is no grievances of her being "ethnically French" because she has french heritage.