Support NeoGAF

[Hitokage]

"If you could only be one thing, would you be people, or wolves? I want you to have that choice."

And this is why they just sell to otaku instead. Why bother going through the trouble to make something thoughtful and creative when they aren't even given a chance? At least otaku keep their ramen pot full.

 

[The Boat]

Dude Ghibli films get the most money and time in the industry. Time is a huge factor. Many studios are capable of producing great looking movies but they just don't get the time allocation. TV shows are even worse.

Miyazaki isn't on some mystical stage all by himself when it comes to animation skill.

Different artists have different skills. It isn't odd to imagine that some are on different levels, even if money and time helps.
Edit: I don't think his main point about watching people is just about animation and drawing, it's about creating believable characters, which of course, includes their design and way of moving,

 

[remnant]

Being a t.v. Show or being short on time is an excuse. Plenty of small shows with shoestring budgets have great animation and storytelling.

It's not that Miyazaki has magic powers or something. He prioritized different things which happen to be the principles that good animation is based on. Right now that currently isn't the norm

 

[Haly]

Edit: I don't think his main point about watching people is just about animation and drawing

No, he really is just talking about that.

Anything else you want to get out of his words is just conjecture.

 

[Fusebox]

No, he really is just talking about that.

Anything else you want to get out of his words is just conjecture.

Really? I thought he was referring to the fact that your average anime is filled with people who just don't behave like people, whereas even in Ghiblis most fantastic stories people still tend to act like normal people would.

 

[Haly]

Really? I thought he was referring to the fact that your average anime is filled with people who just don't behave like people, whereas even in Ghiblis most fantastic stories people still tend to act like normal people would.

This is mostly projection.

You see, whether you can draw like this or not, being able to think up this kind of design, it depends on whether or not you can say to yourself, ‘Oh, yeah, girls like this exist in real life.

If you don’t spend time watching real people, you can’t do this, because you’ve never seen it.

Taken in the context of him doing sketches of girls, it's clear he's talking about visuals rather than writing/storytelling.

 

[FreddieQuell]

And this is why they just sell to otaku instead. Why bother going through the trouble to make something thoughtful and creative when they aren't even given a chance? At least otaku keep their ramen pot full.

I would have laughed at that line no matter where I saw it. Being from an anime isn't what made it funny.

 

[Crash Station]

I would have laughed at that line no matter where I saw it. Being from an anime isn't what made it funny.

Context is important.

 

[UrbanRats]

Guys its ok, there is a new series of Jojo in April.

No moe, no fanservice, only manly men doing manly things.

Anime is saved! Again!

'cause that's not pandering? (I love JoJo, the manga at least).

 

[FO-totality]

I would have laughed at that line no matter where I saw it. Being from an anime isn't what made it funny.

What's funny about that line?

 

[dimb]

Different artists have different skills. It isn't odd to imagine that some are on different levels, even if money and time helps.

Guess how you acquire talented artists.

 

[FreddieQuell]

Context is important.

It sure is. That's why I took it out of context.

What's funny about that line?

I don't know, it just is. I cracked up when I heard it in the trailer.

 

[KirbYuuYuu]

I would have laughed at that line no matter where I saw it. Being from an anime isn't what made it funny.

Another vote in where context is important.

Better yet, I would like to ask what you thought of when you read it, sans laughter.

 

[remnant]

Really? I thought he was referring to the fact that your average anime is filled with people who just don't behave like people, whereas even in Ghiblis most fantastic stories people still tend to act like normal people would.

That has much more to do with the source material than anything else. Most t.v. Anime is licensed drek and the Japanese equivalent of superheroes. Ghibli on the other hand is adapting high fantasy and literature.

 

[remnant]

Guess how you acquire talented artists.

And how did those artists become talented?

 

[FreddieQuell]

Another vote in where context is important.

Better yet, I would like to ask what you thought of when you read it, sans laughter.

jeeze, sorry. I wasn't trying to derail the thread or anything, but let me tell you. First thing I thought was that it sounded dumb as shit. Then I thought it probably means a lot after watching the movie and seeing the main character lose her husband and struggle to raise her children on her own. I also thought about how it could probably mean a lot more when you look at the skinchanging affliction as a metaphor. Metaphor of what exactly I don't know. Then I again thought of how stupid it sounded.

 

[KirbYuuYuu]

jeeze, sorry. I wasn't trying to derail the thread or anything, but let me tell you. First thing I thought was that it sounded dumb as shit. Then I thought it probably means a lot after watching the movie and seeing the main character lose her husband and struggle to raise her children on her own. I also thought about how it could probably mean a lot more when you look at the skinchanging affliction as a metaphor. Metaphor of what exactly I don't know. Then I again thought of how stupid it sounded.

Sorry. Just wanted to ask, mainly because of the general heat that comes with these topics.

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

Pretty sure if you gave a bunch of these studios the same budget and time as Miyazaki gets you would be getting things perhaps even more spectacular than what he has made.

You can look up "sakuga" on youtube to see what numerous studios/animators are capable of, most of those clips will also be from TV shows which seems amazing to me considering they apparently have much lower budgets than movies, or at least the ones that Miyazaki makes.

From what I've seen, and I'm sure those sakuga videos will demonstrate, is that there are plenty of animators who know what they're doing and have a great eye for detail and animation.

Expecting to find that in the numerous low budget contract jobs that studios take to pay the bills doesn't seem like the brightest of ideas.

 

[Hitokage]

And how did those artists become talented?

By not working under a control freak workaholic like Miyazaki.

Seriously, all of these complaints would have more weight if Studio Ghibli wasn't about to die as it was born: a two man show. When it comes to fostering the next generation of Japanese animation, Miyazaki has done very little. Mamoru Hosoda could have been a decent example, but he was run out and had to succeed on his own.

 

[Jarmel]

By not working under a control freak workaholic like Miyazaki.

Seriously, all of these complaints would have more weight if Studio Ghibli wasn't about to die as it was born: a two man show. When it comes to fostering the next generation of Japanese animation, Miyazaki has done very little. Mamoru Hosoda could have been a decent example, but he was run out and had to succeed on his own.

Oshii would have used much stronger words making that post.

 

[charsace]

He's right. In the 90's anime started going away from realism and the art style and animation has suffered because of it.

 

[Hitokage]

Oshii would have used much stronger words making that post.

Miyazaki's own senility is another matter!

 

[Violet_0]

Today's anime industry reeks of the inmates taking over the asylum; They wanna draw cute girls all the time, so dammit, they're gonna. Wait, everyone else on the staff is drawing cute girls, too? Oh well, guess it's going to be another fucking show about a bunch of cute girls [...] It's become a big circle-jerk.

heh

 

[Dresden]

Seriously, all of these complaints would have more weight if Studio Ghibli wasn't about to die as it was born: a two man show. When it comes to fostering the next generation of Japanese animation, Miyazaki has done very little. Mamoru Hosoda could have been a decent example, but he was run out and had to succeed on his own.

Can't really blame him for Yoshifumi Kondo's death. Who, along with all the talented individuals Takahta and Miyazaki worked with, aren't given enough credit for the work they did.

 

[remnant]

By not working under a control freak workaholic like Miyazaki.

Seriously, all of these complaints would have more weight if Studio Ghibli wasn't about to die as it was born: a two man show. When it comes to fostering the next generation of Japanese animation, Miyazaki has done very little. Mamoru Hosoda could have been a decent example, but he was run out and had to succeed on his own.

Cheering anime's march to irrelevancy all the way

 

[Jarmel]

Is Takahata done too? I thought he was but he seemingly hasn't resigned yet.

 

[jerry1594]

Baka !!!~ (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Real life should be more like Animeアニメ~

(๑•﹏•)

 

[MattKeil]

More than a few topless scenes exist in both UY and Ranma, and let's not forget Akemi's see-through dress in Maison Ikkoku.

Point being, anime before the 2000's wasn't just Gundam and Leave It To Beaver.

That's more of a cultural difference than evidence of a history of perversion in anime. There are topless scenes in '70s Godzilla movies (that are cut from the US release versions).

 

[KirbYuuYuu]

I guess we're going to dig deeper in terms of staff right now?

I guess I'll sit this one out. Not my area of expertise (I do really like Mamoru Hosoda's works though).

 

[Hitokage]

Can't really blame him for Yoshifumi Kondo's death. Who, along with all the talented individuals Takahta and Miyazaki worked with, aren't given enough credit for the work they did.

Kondo wasn't their fault for sure, but where are all the rest of these talented people?

 

[EndlessSky]

Pretty sure if you gave a bunch of these studios the same budget and time as Miyazaki gets you would be getting things perhaps even more spectacular than what he has made.

You can look up "sakuga" on youtube to see what numerous studios/animators are capable of, most of those clips will also be from TV shows which seems amazing to me considering they apparently have much lower budgets than movies, or at least the ones that Miyazaki makes.

From what I've seen, and I'm sure those sakuga videos will demonstrate, is that there are plenty of animators who know what they're doing and have a great eye for detail and animation.

Expecting to find that in the numerous low budget contract jobs that studios take to pay the bills doesn't seem like the brightest of ideas.

I actually did look up sakuga on youtube and found this amazing video. I love that animation, but unfortunately not many anime are animated that well. It would be nice if more series had this kind of "flowing" animation in them.

 

[Caesnd]

I still believe that what Miyazaki is getting at isn't just drawing technique or knowledge of kinetics etc. It's about creative drive in general. This affects a number of things, not just how the actual animation itself is made on a technical level.

 

[wwm0nkey]

His rationale works for that too. Imagine the gaming industry run by us, this forum. We'd have nothing but Bayonetta and Earthbound sequels.

So the world would be a better place then?

 

[Caesnd]

So the world would be a better place then?

For you maybe, and probably only in the short term. Think of the implication of what is actually being written and then try to make that answer again, this time taking other people and their potential interest into consideration also.

 

[tiggerkiddo]

Isolation, in any way, is as good a source for art as any other.

And it's not the otaku's fault that they're the only ones supporting content aimed at them. I love moeshit though, so I'm glad I have a large selection of content to watch each season.

Isolation has its place but too many creative artists/writers...etc, seem to rely on it far too much.

 

[Dresden]

Kondo wasn't their fault for sure, but where are all the rest of these talented people?

Most noticeably? Kenichi Konishi comes to mind, with Princess Kaguya coming up for home release this year. You can pick dozens of people per movie - good work doesn't come from anywhere, and while a director's influence, especially one like Miyazaki who was notorious for his attention to detail before Princess Mononoke, can't be discounted, the individual talent of those involved shouldn't be ignored, either.

Addressing your earlier post (and the second half of the quoted one), I don't think it's some great fault that they were unable to groom successors to the ghibli legacy or whatever. It's enough that they were great creators on their own; it's not up to them to uphold the studio as a whole.

 

[Branduil]

The Hosoda thing could definitely be held against them though. They had the next great anime director right there, and they drove him away just so that Miyazaki could make the really prettily animated equivalent of "old man yelling at a cloud."

 

[FoxSpirit]

KyotoAnimation, who made K-on, just made an anime pandering to fujoshi(female otaku) this past year. And it's not the first show of its kind either; there may be more cute-girls-doing-cute-things shows overall, but fujoshi anime have become a very lucrative market. To the degree that people are unaware of this, probably has to do with the selection bias of the international fandom.

Fun fact: Unofficial Sentai Akibaranger introduced me to this. That show is also really nerdy. It also highlights how little money is to be made by such outings. Eventhough it did well enough to get a 2nd season, you could see the budget constraints all around. While this is also for comedic purposes (they are a poor unofficial show), it's simply that: show for Anime lovers? Sorry, limited market, limited budget.

 

[Dresden]

The Hosoda thing could definitely be held against them though. They had the next great anime director right there, and they drove him away just so that Miyazaki could make the really prettily animated equivalent of "old man yelling at a cloud."

Wasn't Miyazaki's fault, though. It was on the producer and the staff - they hired Hosoda to 'train new directors,' in his own words, and he didn't get along with the people he had to work with (hence those stories about how Katsuya Kondo would treat him like shit).

But even with that in mind, would he be the same director that he is now if he didn't head to toei afterward? It's dangerous to play what-if's here, I think.

 

[wonzo]

I actually did look up sakuga on youtube and found this amazing video. I love that animation, but unfortunately not many anime are animated that well. It would be nice if more series had this kind of "flowing" animation in them.

If you liked that then you should really give this thing a watch sometime.

e: also check out the stuff on this list

 

[Jarmel]

Wasn't Miyazaki's fault, though. It was on the producer and the staff - they hired Hosoda to 'train new directors,' in his own words, and he didn't get along with the people he had to work with (hence those stories about how Katsuya Kondo would treat him like shit).

But even with that in mind, would he be the same director that he is now if he didn't head to toei afterward? It's dangerous to play what-if's here, I think.

Is there a good article that talks about this? Seems like it would be a good read.

 

[Passive Assassin]

I actually did look up sakuga on youtube and found this amazing video. I love that animation, but unfortunately not many anime are animated that well. It would be nice if more series had this kind of "flowing" animation in them.

best youtube sakuga channel. all dat animation

 

[Quackula]

He's right. In the 90's anime started going away from realism and the art style and animation has suffered because of it.

I'd say the typical "anime" look today is a lot closer to "realism" than the look of shows like Slayers.

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

I actually did look up sakuga on youtube and found this amazing video. I love that animation, but unfortunately not many anime are animated that well. It would be nice if more series had this kind of "flowing" animation in them.

I believe that's due to budgetary and time based reasons. Since studios IIRC work on a deadline they have to work quickly and manage where the budget is going to go. So the important scenes are going to get the most attention if the budget allows where possible while non-vital scenes like say two characters talking at some random point in an episode is not going to get the same attention as a pivotal fight or drama scene.

I think sakuga means something different in Japan compared to how it's used here. But the way I like to interpret our version of it is something like "if we have time and money, this is what we can do".

Here are a few more.

Mix 18
3D Perspective stuff

 

[Messofanego]

Oh man.

 

[GCX]

Seriously, all of these complaints would have more weight if Studio Ghibli wasn't about to die as it was born: a two man show. When it comes to fostering the next generation of Japanese animation, Miyazaki has done very little. Mamoru Hosoda could have been a decent example, but he was run out and had to succeed on his own.

Miyazaki has admitted that he doesn't know how to teach animators or foster new talent. He's a very very uncompromising director who either does everything by himself or not at all. He retired because he doesn't know how to be only partly involved in movie production.

Ghibli was founded so that Takahata and Miyazaki could make movies without compromises and maybe that's how it'll end up too. In my books that's fine, Miyazaki doesn't owe any debt to Japanese animation to come up with the next generation of superstar directors, especially because he clearly lacks the team effort skills to do so. Maybe it's good he sticks up with what he's good at and let someone else share the spotlight.

 

[thenexus6]

Miyazaki speaks the truth.

 

[Shergal]

Is there a good article that talks about this? Seems like it would be a good read.

Not an 'article' per se, but there's a bunch of dispersed info/rumors here and there

Many fans [of OP movie 6] noticed that it didn't feel like that big a stretch to infer in the titular Island a pretty overt metaphor - Ghibli. It was fun to think about the film in that sense, but reading the interview, I realized it was far more important an element than I suspected - it's practically the point of the film.
What does that have to do with Howl? Hosoda goes to Ghibli at their invitation. He finds everybody busy on Spirited Away. Nobody's available to start working on the film. He's the director, not the producer, but he has to scrounge up all the staff himself. So he goes around talking up people, trying to get them onboard. Not just animators, even the art section he had to find for himself. He's got no clout, he's putting his rep on the line with these people, but he wants to create the best film he can, and he knows the most important element in doing that is the staff. But then, poof, the project goes up in smoke, and all these people are hung out to dry. Unfortunately Hosoda doesn't talk about why the project imploded, but the end result is Hosoda finds himself isolated and alone.

Source

Animation production [on Howl's] had started but animation director Katsuya Kondo was not happy at all with Hosoda's work. Apparently he did not like Hosoda's style not enough Ghibli-ish.
To displease Hosoda when layout stopped by his desk, he would not correct them.
in the end there was a dispute and Hosoda returned to Toei Animation.

Source (this was only a rumor, although apparently it was fairly credible or something)

 

[/XX/]

Money is overhyped. Money may help a few feathers overlap better and add in a scene or two, but that quality of consistent animation. That comes from sitting your ass down on a bench and drawing people walking by. That comes from videotaping yourself and measuring your Squash and stretch, your line of action, your silhouette, etc etc

Wolf children was very good, but it's budget was fairly small for a full length film, which kind of proves my point.

The power of money gives one of the most important things on this cases as is time (yeah, I think relaxed deadlines are really that essential), but specially a sure support and distribution, a confidence in that there's a way out for some of your creativity for which you have been given a golden time to showcase.

Animation production companies and publishers are the ones that dictate the market, and secure distribution channels, so let's not gonna pretend animation studios can act independently and just relentlessly keep functioning daily working on what they want without even having to pitch the most simplest of projects. Money gives them privilege, contracts gives them just enough of a lifeline to survive.

You know, using as a example a company like Studio Ghibli seems kind of faulty when; A) it was initially funded by a publishing company, B) had to scramble at first for budgets film-by-film without a margin for even one flop, and C) was comprised in the beginning of no full-time staffers working on a rented place due to the risks of doing just theatrical projects. And all that was after the good deeds planted by TOPCRAFT's Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind success (that they couldn't even have made if it wasn't technically a graphical novel adaptation)! Even Toshio Suzuki talked about the enviably unique position in which they were and are on the Japanese animation industry just by having the possibility of only making original movie projects, thanks to a strong backing nowadays granted after a long way of cunning strategies, gained confidence, smart 'double-bill releases' and much more.

Seriously, all of these complaints would have more weight if Studio Ghibli wasn't about to die as it was born: a two man show. When it comes to fostering the next generation of Japanese animation, Miyazaki has done very little.

Well, reading things like this:

Philip Brophy: What happened to Takahata's animation school?

Toshio Suzuki: We tried this twice, where junior staff would be attend. Takahata taught about directing, and the other was led by Miyazaki. It didn't work, because a talented genius filmmaker is not necessarily a good teacher. Actually, it was really terrible.

http://www.nausicaa.net/miyazaki/interviews/suzuki_interview.html

... we can't say they didn't try!

 

[NaDannMaGoGo]

For those that say there's nothing good out there... that's just wrong.

I've only recently gotten more into anime but shows like Death Note (well first half in particular, it did get worse then), Psycho-Pass and Shinsekai Yori are fricking great. Especially the later two do not really suffer from the commonly annoying anime tropes and have some heavy and well delivered story to tell; they're raising/covering a lot of interesting philosophical themes.

I do agree though that overall, the pandering can be really annoying and after watching Psycho-Pass I was curious about the writer and saw that he was involved in "Suisei no Gargantia".

So I checked that out and... god fucking damn it. That's one of those shows where the display of fanservice actually DESTROYS the storytelling for me. Seriously, it's at a point where I'm constantly actively thinking "Really... really now? You try to tell a serious story to some degree but now you make your scantily clad teenager characters belly dance?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtD-Cwv3UTY&feature=player_detailpage#t=54

Holy shit, that entire show is so filled with fanservice and pathetic characterization I cannot possibly enjoy the actual plot that appears to have a serious core. 99% of the female characters happen to have cow tits, every single one of them has this weird perma-rouge glow and they all love to wear as little as possible.

Amy, the protagonists main interest, is super generic "girl you gonna love", being all nice, looking good, super friendly, has an equally cute pet (a flying squirrel!) and she's employed in a delivery service that allows her to fly around in some glider (after all something related to mobility is always cool, especially when it's flying).

It's like the just slap the most generic, lovable aspects together in order to have the easiest time make stupid anime viewers go "AMY BEST GIRL!".

Oh and the CGI for the mech in that show is so darn bad. Like it stands out so much from everything else... and it doesn't help that the mech itself looks like it's designed like s.th. a 5year old would consider cool.


Anyways, it's when I see shows like that where I can hardly believe that anyone enjoys this crap. After watching it (skipped through stuff later on) I wondered if /r/anime didn't share my thoughts on that. But nope, looks like the majority of folks watching that show actually enjoyed it somehow.

Then again on /r/anime you mustn't voice a negative opinion on the shows anyways. I made a thread about "Summer Wars" (terrible Digimon-movie knock-off that's just bad all around) and "Clannad" (worst writing and characterization I've encountered in years) after watching those and you instantly get downvoted, even if you try to very carefully voice your concerns.

At the same time I've found recommendations to Psycho-Pass and Yinsekai Yori there so it's not all bad. Anyways, I'm digressing hard here.