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[Javin98]

I thought it was great delivery.

Um, was decent, I guess. It wasn't bad, by any stretch. Aside from the embarrassing moaning and questionable monologue tones (I blame the horrible lines more for this one), Camellia Ludington generally does a good job, but it's not a particularly noteworthy voice work IMO.

 

[nampad]

I really disliked TR 2013 Lara and had to cringe at every performance of Luddington. Just bought the new game and hope that it got better but this thread is not making me optimistic.

 

[RPGam3r]

Since TR2013 came out, I've seen people groaning and complaining about the new Tomb Raider. They say Camilla Luddington is a bad actress, they say the games are poorly written, they say they're generic third-person shooters, they say Lara has no personality, they say Lara is weak, and so on and so on.

And the only conclusion I can come to is that people who feel this way are from a different universe than me. I am in Earth A, where the new Tomb Raider games are the platinum standard for modern action adventure games, and people like you must be on Earth B, where where the new Tomb Raider is bad.

After three years of engaging in this debate, fielding criticisms and offering my own insights, the only truly logical possibility is this. You are simply from a wholly different reality than the one I live in. NeoGAF is piece of glass between our two planes of existence and we can peer just beyond it to see how the other dimension feels about Tomb Raider, but that is all.

Really makes you think. Greetings from Earth A. I wonder what else is different?

Lmao! Glad to be a member of Earth A.

 

[MAX PAYMENT]

Meh. I like new lara.

 

[Ushojax]

Lara used to be a female Indiana Jones and the games were about challenging puzzles and platforming. The new games are about very different things that I find incredibly boring. They've watered down the game design so they can focus on cinematic action and a 'gritty' exploration of Lara's character but the writing simply isn't good enough to make it work and the game never challenges the player.

 

[Yopis]

I really disliked TR 2013 Lara and had to cringe at every performance of Luddington. Just bought the new game and hope that it got better but this thread is not making me optimistic.

Play for yourself. The tone of this thread was a negative one. Might enjoy the game. Had a blast with it. Love the older games also.

I like they tried something new for this run.

How much weight does a small thread with conflicting opinions hold?

 

[BoxManLocke]

Completely agree with OP.

I enjoyed my time with RoTR but certainly not because of Lara. She's probably the most boring female character I've played in a game these last few years.

I've got nothing against Luddington though. It's not her fault the game is completely devoid of good characterization, dialogue, or humor.
The TR games take themselves so seriously it's painful at times.

 

[dan2026]

At least if they'd actually played up the sexiness a bit it might be something.

Angsty boring Lara does nothing for me.

 

[Vlaphor]

I honestly believe that Lara from ROTR is the worst protagonist in any game ever. She's so terrible that I started skipping cutscenes about 75% of the way through the game. She does not want to be there, she hates everything that she is doing, and she doesn't want to anyone to enjoy the experience...especially the player.

If she was anyone else, this would have been her last game and she would've been forgotten about; however, since she's piggybacking off of a much more popular character, this Lara gets far more attention than she deserves.

 

[Elios83]

I fully agree.
In the 2013 reboot it was more justified by the story, in ROTR instead it's just unbearable, not to mention the terrible writing with the constant "it's incredible" everywhere.
I hope the rumors are true and next TR is developed by Eidos Montreal and with an adult Lara as the main character as in the old Core Design days.

 

[EvB]

You make it seem like original Lara was busting with personality :/

 

[wipeout364]

No, that was marketing.

Foremost the classic Tomb Raider games were not about Lara; they were about the tombs. That's the biggest problem with the reboot right away. Lara's character was a just a springboard for the game rather than the other way around that we have now. But still, they did a good job giving her enough character and it was good.

Tomb Raider 1 introduces us to Lara sitting in a hotel and rebuffing the advances of a man that approaches her. The man shows her a newspaper with the headline saying Lara had found Bigfoot and introduces her to Natla, who proposes hiring her. Lara states that she only hunts for sport, and only takes the job after Natla describes how daunting it will be.

This is the first game and right away Lara is a strong, confident woman who we know goes on adventures because she enjoys the thrill. And that's all we need. We don't need an origin story showing a weak and frail young woman who becomes Rambo 5 seconds after touching a gun who constantly talks about how unsure she is and how much unfun she is and tells us where to go and what to do. Why does she need to be following in her father's footsteps or trying to find her missing mom, CD? In her original backstory her parents disowned her because her adventuring lifestyle embarrassed them. Why does she need to be surviving rape island? Why can't she just be a strong woman who likes going on adventures?

The Last Revelation expanded the emphasis on story and character significantly without making Lara weaker. We were introduced to her mentor, Von Croy, and shown that she was a confident young adventurer even in her earliest days. She showed more emotion in the cutscenes. It was great.

I never thought of it this way but it's a good explanation. I always thought of the original games as an older Lara probably close to 40. The new games something like 22. I actually felt there was very little characterization in the first 4 games. Angel of darkness had more and actually although kind of a mess of a game was pretty fun. I actually felt the additional characterization in the first two crystal dynamics games felt a little forced; like Lara was acting like too much of a badass and that the first few games by core portrayed her as a badass without her really acknowledging it as much which I kind of liked better.

The two new games do portray a young Lara who is more human then any previous portrayal. I could see how that would not be as well received for fans of the really old Lara. I think it's a significant change in the focus of the games, the games have changed in every regard not just characterization. Combat and upgrades are also much more of a focus. The old games were dark souls levels of throwing the controller at the wall due to instant death, missing jumps, getting lost , having no idea what to do next. 2 and three are very punishing games.

I like the new games but they are so completely different from the old ones so it's hard to compare, it really is like playing a different series.

 

[DevilDog]

You make it seem like original Lara was busting with personality :/

The one in Tomb Raider Legend was. She was also having fun with her whole adventure.

I still remember "Where is Takamoto?" "It depends on whether he was naughty or nice".

Such perfect cheese.

 

[Human Trashcan]

You make it seem like original Lara was busting with personality :/

These types of complaints always ring hollow because the old games don't have nearly as much writing and dialogue. They knew what they were. There is a lot more focus on story and character in the new games so they're fair critiques.

Also, "old thing is bad so new thing is bad but it's okay" is really not ever a good argument

 

[Harlequin]

You make it seem like original Lara was busting with personality :/

She was specifically not bursting with it because she liked to keep her cards close to her chest but she had lots of it. Like I've said:

Classic Lara was an emotionally closed-off adrenaline junkie who had been disowned by her elitist aristocrat parents because she wanted to travel the globe and raid tombs rather than marry some wealthy high-society guy. She combined many admirable qualities like independence, confidence, strength, intelligence with some not-so-admirable traits and attitudes like selfishness, impatience, reclusiveness, a general disregard for the well-being of others (human or non-human) or the integrity of cultural heritage, even for her own health and safety, to form a consistent, well-rounded character.
All she cared about was the thrill of the hunt and the shiny souvenir that awaited her at the end. If she had to destroy an ancient temple, kill a few members of an endangered species and a couple of mercenaries to get that, she'd do so without giving it a second thought. Furthermore, she had very few friends and most would've probably considered her to be quite unpleasant company because she really wasn't a very friendly or outgoing person. Generally speaking, classic Lara wasn't a hero by a long shot, she was a thief, a killer and a vandal.

Now on the other hand, you have reboot Lara who studied archaeology (the actual, original Lara could not be further from a proper archaeologist) to follow in her father's footsteps, is friendly and understanding to a fault, constantly wears her heart on her sleeve and whines about her current situation and needs to reassure herself that she "can do this". They're two completely different persons and, personally, I much prefer the original. She has more depth, a lot of which is hidden beneath the surface (which only makes her more interesting - especially compared to reboot Lara who blurts out her every emotion), is more consistent in her characterisation (though, admittedly, there have been a few missteps, especially in the early games), has the less cheesy backstory and is just generally a less stereotypical and more original character.

 

[inky]

Yes she is, at least for the first game which is the one I played.

I kinda get what they were going for with her thirst for revenge, violent outbursts and imagery of her being reborn in a pool of blood and sacrificial corpses, but then my gripe isn't necessarily that they went that way, but that they didn't go far enough. By the end of the game she should've been completely unhinged, boredering on feral (which I guess she was if you go by her actions) but it is played down from the "survivor" angle during the cutscenes, so that creates a jarring disconnect between their intent and reality.

The supporting cast didn't help either. They were absolutely awful with some of the worst dialogue and delivery in a videogame that takes itself this seriously. Like someone else pointed out, they were going for a "horror movie" tropes even in how and when they all die, but they missed the mark.

I did find one instance in the game completely hilarious. I think after her friend gets kidnapped or that one mentor guy dies she goes all: "I will make them pay for what they've done" and it reminded me of Picard in First Contact in how "action hero cliche" and completely out of character it sounded. I just burst out laughing at that. If the game or the character was a little bit more self aware it would probably be fine but they play her so dry and serious it's just boring.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

Seriously, Tomb Raider is a fucked up franchise in terms of how they treat Lara Croft.
They've never cared on making her anything in terms of writing, I mean fuck early Tomb Raider games were all about how hot she was hence Eidos hiring out Models to dress up as her and sell the game.

CD tried with their little trilogy Legend, Anniversary, Underworld but she still wasn't all that great but much better than original series and this new one for sure.

Exactly. People seem to conflate big breasts with having more personality. She didn't, standards were just lower back then.

 

[NullPointer]

You make it seem like original Lara was busting with personality :/

Or even that most gaming protagonists are.

I must be old school, but I really don't need or expect deep character development. I just need context and motivation for what I'm doing. Anything that goes beyond that and does it decently is a plus.

I guess I don't see when or where the standard got raised with Lara Croft in particular.

Gameplay we can talk for days, but writing? I'm all for asking for better, I just don't get the high expectations in the first place, and the disappointments that seemed to have resulted from them.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

Or even that most gaming protagonists are.

I must be old school, but I really don't need or expect deep character development. I just need context for what I'm doing. Anything that goes beyond that and does it decently is a plus.

I guess I don't see when or where the standard got raised with Lara Croft in particular.

Me neither. The reboots have perfectly average video game stories yet for some reason people go in on them as if they're self declared as the citizen Kane of gaming.

 

[tuxfool]

I thought TR 2013 was workmanlike, and at least they TRIED something with Lara there, even if it didn't always pan out. Rise is a horrible cliche fest with completely awful writing, and Lara herself is not the least bit interesting in it. Unfortunately I think Rhianna Pratchett is a very poor writer. Even within the confines of the game, she manages to make every line either a non-sequitur, a cliche, or a statement of the obvious.

I don't think she was the writer of the dialogue. That honor goes to the more junior writers, I think. Writers like Mr. "Reyes is not an angry black lady stereotype".

Though for all the presentations she gives on "story is important" and "needs to be developed early with the game", the TR stories are a bunch of derivative crap.

 

[SeeNoWeevil]

Exactly. People seem to conflate big breasts with having more personality. She didn't, standards were just lower back then.

I wasn't being entirely serious about my comments re. the original character.

 

[Harlequin]

I don't think she was the writer of the dialogue. That honor goes to the more junior writers, I think. Writers like Mr. "Reyes is not an angry black lady stereotype".

Rhianna writes the cutscene dialogues, someone at Crystal writes the in-game dialogues and they all collaborate on the plot as a whole (though, at least on the first game, most of the plot and characters were already in place when Rhianna joined the project and we don't know whether she had more control over Rise's plot).

Exactly. People seem to conflate big breasts with having more personality. She didn't, standards were just lower back then.

I'd actually argue that people seem to conflate big breasts with having no personality and that's why so many seem to think that classic Lara was an emotion-less robot. They can't see past her admittedly oversexualised appearance.

 

[RagnarokX]

I never thought of it this way but it's a good explanation. I always thought of the original games as an older Lara probably close to 40. The new games something like 22. I actually felt there was very little characterization in the first 4 games. Angel of darkness had more and actually although kind of a mess of a game was pretty fun. I actually felt the additional characterization in the first two crystal dynamics games felt a little forced; like Lara was acting like too much of a badass and that the first few games by core portrayed her as a badass without her really acknowledging it as much which I kind of liked better.

The two new games do portray a young Lara who is more human then any previous portrayal. I could see how that would not be as well received for fans of the really old Lara. I think it's a significant change in the focus of the games, the games have changed in every regard not just characterization. Combat and upgrades are also much more of a focus. The old games were dark souls levels of throwing the controller at the wall due to instant death, missing jumps, getting lost , having no idea what to do next. 2 and three are very punishing games.

I like the new games but they are so completely different from the old ones so it's hard to compare, it really is like playing a different series.

I wouldn't say reboot Lara is more human. She's a less fun human.

Old Lara went on adventures because she wanted to. She got caught up in evil schemes but it was all about claiming the prize. She was a self-serving thrillseeker.

Reboot Lara goes on adventures because she has to. She has to uphold her father's legacy and is forced into adventures she didn't want and complains all the time about how much she hates doing what she's doing.

People used the 'origin story' excuse to explain why Lara was so unlikeable and why the gameplay and level design were so much weaker, but that's an awful excuse because Core didn't make such a game where story and character development got in the way of good game design. They introduced us to Lara as an established pro and let the gameplay and level design do the talking. And when they delved into Lara's past she was just as gung ho about adventure. Making an adventure platforming game about a character who hates adventure and isn't good at platforming is a bad idea. Come up with a character and story that fit the game, not the other way around.

 

[Sub_Level]

The 6th gen trilogy was probably a good middle ground. She was more of an actual character than 5th gen, but was still sexy and sassy.

 

[Shahed]

I've brought this up before, but I don't like her voice acting. As a Brit, it sounds wrong. As if the poshness is too forced or something. It doesn't sound like someone who naturally talks like that, but one who's attempting to emulate it.

 

[semiconscious]

i've disliked reboot lara from the first trailer. crystal dynamics's awful, misguided attempt to 'humanize' her has instead completely diminished her. add in stuff like 'lost syrian tribe settles in siberia centuries ago, & everyone there now speaks perfect english', & you've got cheesier, more embarrassing pulp than even robert e. howard or edgar rice burroughs ever wrote ...

 

[Salty Rice]

Totally agree. Classic PS1 Tomb Raider without dialogue and just with her looks and actions alone wasnt as boring and dull as new Lara.

"I can do this!" killing and whining at the same time psychopath Lara is fucking trash.

They should reboot the reboot and bring back old Lara.

Just look at Chloe from Uncharted. She is a better Lara than Lara.

 

[tuxfool]

Rhianna writes the cutscene dialogues, someone at Crystal writes the in-game dialogues and they all collaborate on the plot as a whole (though, at least on the first game, most of the plot and characters were already in place when Rhianna joined the project and we don't know whether she had more control over Rise's plot)..

Given that she gives presentations on the "Story is important" methodologies used in Rise, I'd say she had a fair amount of control.

Exactly. People seem to conflate big breasts with having more personality. She didn't, standards were just lower back then.

No, people are arguing that the personality (of what is there) is more unique and interesting than the wet blanket in Nu-Lara.

 

[Fancy Clown]

Tomb Raider '13 has one of the worst stories in a AAA game I've played in the last few years. Lara was a real bad character.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

Rhianna writes the cutscene dialogues, someone at Crystal writes the in-game dialogues and they all collaborate on the plot as a whole (though, at least on the first game, most of the plot and characters were already in place when Rhianna joined the project and we don't know whether she had more control over Rise's plot).



I'd actually argue that people seem to conflate big breasts with having no personality and that's why so many seem to think that classic Lara was an emotion-less robot. They can't see past her admittedly oversexualised appearance.

To be frank, I don't think either of them are particularly good personalities and once Crystal is done with this current trilogy I would be fine with another reboot. I just hope that whoever they get to write her going forward doesn't fall back on the laziness of the over sexualised Lara.

 

[Plumpbiscuit]

I'm right with you on the modern Lara being dull. The problem was that they were trying to make Lara realistic both physically and how she interacts with the world. Now, realism isn't bad by default but Lara was always credited for her sex appeal and her witty one-liners similar to how BJ or Duke Nukem says them. What the developers did was take both of them out and make them the opposite; unattractive and a boring, uninspiring personality where she's either worried about somebody else or constantly whining/moaning at every little action she does.

I love classic Lara, alot of people says she doesn't have a personality but in fact she does, it just isn't shoved down our throats or have the character constantly talking. If BJ and Duke Nukem are characters with personality then so is Lara. You knew that when a cutscene began you would hear some witty or snarky sarcasm from classic Lara, but with the modern one there's none of that. The variety in costumes, her funny one-liners, high class English accent all made a finished package that was actually quite original and unique back then. Now? Lara is just like every other character, responding to situations realistically rather than the style that a Tomb Raider game was known for, which was a cross between comic relief and stylised power fantasy. I mean, Lara's outfits in the reboots are mostly the same with only colourisation variations. For example she never wears shorts, always wears boots, doesn't wear sunglasses etc. This realistic approach makes her dull because what she wears and says are dull.

The developers spent too much time trying to make modern Lara somebody you can relate to, which ultimately becomes boring and a chore once you start murdering hundreds of enemies, and she still acts like she didn't mean to do it or was just fighting to survive, which is what every other character in modern AAA games are doing. In the older games, you knew you had to take down baddies to reach whatever treasure it is you needed to collect for your boss. Trying to play this innocent survivor who kills hundreds, vs. a power fantasy that has both sex appeal and a classy personality sounds boring.

I hope in the next game that the developers step away from Lara wanting to learn about her father and instead focus on her character development as a tomb raider, where she developers her classic personality.

 

[inky]

I don't think standards are raised for Lara in particular, and that's a wierdly defensive way to act to criticism and claims that she is dull. If you are trying something different, then some expectations come into it, especially after the Uncharted games and the relentless vg developer mandate for "cinematic" games.

Developers are the ones raising the bar because they think that's what audiences want and what the medium demands now, so it's not unfair to hold them to their own set of standards either. Your personal preference of characterization has little to do with it.

But here, I'll give you a freebie: Marcus Fenix is a dull character too. Even though I think Joe DiMaggio plays him way better and the writing of that character is more appropriate to the context of that game, he's a dull military guy. Funnily enough, I've read impressions of GoW4 and that the main character is dull and out of place too becauze they try to make him too much of a jokester and lovable rogue in a setting that doesn't fit.

I haven't played that so I couldn't tell you, but you are free to amke a thread about it if you think people are being too unfair with this Lara in particular.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

I'm right with you on the modern Lara being dull. The problem was that they were trying to make Lara realistic both physically and how she interacts with the world. Now, realism isn't bad by default but Lara was always credited for her sex appeal and her witty one-liners similar to how BJ or Duke Nukem says them. What the developers did was take both of them out and make them the opposite; unattractive and a boring, uninspiring personality where she's either worried about somebody else or constantly whining/moaning at every little action she does.

I love classic Lara, alot of people says she doesn't have a personality but in fact she does, it just isn't shoved down our throats or have the character constantly talking. If BJ and Duke Nukem are characters with personality then so is Lara. You knew that when a cutscene began you would hear some witty or snarky sarcasm from classic Lara, but with the modern one there's none of that. The variety in costumes, her funny one-liners, high class English accent all made a finished package that was actually quite original and unique back then. Now? Lara is just like every other character, responding to situations realistically rather than the style that a Tomb Raider game was known for, which was a cross between comic relief and stylised power fantasy. I mean, Lara's outfits in the reboots are mostly the same with only colourisation variations. For example she never wears shorts, always wears boots, doesn't wear sunglasses etc. This realistic approach makes her dull because what she wears and says are dull.

The developers spent too much time trying to make modern Lara somebody you can relate to, which ultimately becomes boring and a chore once you start murdering hundreds of enemies, and she still acts like she didn't mean to do it or was just fighting to survive, which is what every other character in modern AAA games are doing. In the older games, you knew you had to take down baddies to reach whatever treasure it is you needed to collect for your boss. Trying to play this innocent survivor who kills hundreds, vs. a power fantasy that has both sex appeal and a classy personality sounds boring.

I hope in the next game that the developers step away from Lara wanting to learn about her father and instead focus on her character development as a tomb raider, where she developers her classic personality.

I disagree with this. Lara's sex appeal is wholly unnecessary to making her a more likeable and interesting character, especially when you consider that that was literally just done because the team at the time consisted of young men who liked big breasts. That's not the only audience Lara is designed for anymore. I also disagree that her new design is boring, as I think pretty much every outfit in Rise looks distinct and cool.

imo what they should do is recognise that current Lara is a ruthless, unusually driven psychopath and then make that her character arc in the next game, similar to the way Joel's character at the end of TLoU is undeniably selfish & morally wrong.

Stating that lara's sex appeal has to return for her to be fun to play and likeable is silly because there is pretty much no sexualised male protagonist like that and yet everyone loves their Nathan Drake characters.

 

[ViperCommand]

I really enjoyed Tomb Raider 2013. It was nice to see a Lara that wasn't already a badass. For some reason I couldn't stand her in RotTR. Tomb Raider Underworld was probably my favorite version of Laura. She had the confident attitude thats impotant for her character. Underworld was also a great game in general IMO.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

I feel like the main thing that everyone is forgetting is that there was a reason Underworld flopped, and many critics attributed it to the fact that Lara as a character was outdated and lacked any depth. She was an unlikable and strangely proportioned psychopath who killed people and animals indiscrimately while spouting witty one liners yet the game expected you to sympathise with her and her quest, and all of the NPCs in the game tried to present a much more serious story than that Lara was capable of delivering.

The old Lara really wasn't any better than the current one, and the current one has a long way to go. But we shouldn't just flip the switch and go back to the old one, we should look at what's next.

 

[Harlequin]

I feel like the main thing that everyone is forgetting is that there was a reason Underworld flopped, and many critics attributed it to the fact that Lara as a character was outdated and lacked any depth. She was an unlikable and strangely proportioned psychopath who killed people and animals indiscrimately while spouting witty one liners yet the game expected you to sympathise with her and her quest, and all of the NPCs in the game tried to present a much more serious story than that Lara was capable of delivering.

The old Lara really wasn't any better than the current one, and the current one has a long way to go. But we shouldn't just flip the switch and go back to the old one, we should look at what's next.

Anyone who lumps classic and LAU Lara together like they're the same character really just shows that they don't quite know what they're talking about. They're very different in terms of both background and personality.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

Anyone who lumps classic and LAU Lara together like they're the same character really just shows that they don't quite know what they're talking about. They're very different in terms of both background and personality.

They are, but the LAU trilogy was supposed to be carrying that Lara forward into more serious storytelling and it didn't work.

 

[Falchion]

Hopefully the next one will explore her relationship with someone besides her father.

 

[Rymuth]

Relevant to the topic at hand:

The Problems with Rise of the Tomb Raider - Yahtzee

Maybe old Lara Croft wasn't as complex a character, but maybe uncomplicated is the right way to depict the main character of an escapist adventure fantasy like what the Tomb Raiders were. We're naturally more interested in the world, the architecture and the quest for hidden treasures than we are in our viewpoint character and how much her splintered ribcage hurts.

 

[Plumpbiscuit]

I disagree with this. Lara's sex appeal is wholly unnecessary to making her a more likeable and interesting character, especially when you consider that that was literally just done because the team at the time consisted of young men who liked big breasts. That's not the only audience Lara is designed for anymore. I also disagree that her new design is boring, as I think pretty much every outfit in Rise looks distinct and cool.

Her sex appeal was one of the ways that made classic Lara interesting, she blew up big in the 90's and this was mainly due to the way Eidos at the time marketed her; her sex appeal.

As for the costumes, you may like or not like them but you can't escape the fact they all are dull coloured, most of them are styled the same; she only wears trousers and no additional accessories like sunglasses or whatever. Fashion is another way to make a character interesting or at least not dull, by giving them variety and distinct features another one doesn't have.

imo what they should do is recognise that current Lara is a ruthless, unusually driven psychopath and then make that her character arc in the next game

So you're saying you have to make a character a psychopath, or have the game acknowledge that the character needs to kill hundreds of others to make them interesting? I mean, I can't think of a single line modern Lara says in TR 2013 or ROtTR that stuck out to me as interesting or further contributed towards the development of her personality since she is the same character from beginning to end. Why does a character need to kill to make them interesting?

Stating that lara's sex appeal has to return for her to be fun to play and likeable is silly because there is pretty much no sexualised male protagonist like that and yet everyone loves their Nathan Drake characters.

People love Nathan Drake for a variety of reasons including his voice actor who people also love, Drake also has an actual, interesting personality similar to Indiana Jones. He typically doesn't respond "realistically" to situations or always talk about how he wants to escape or save somebody else unless it's to advance the plot, like if another main character is kidnapped. He is witty, charming and says funny one-liners from time to time (*gasp* just like classic Lara). Except with the case of classic Lara, her sex appeal played a large role in making her interesting along with her varied outfits. Women are allowed to look sexy.

 

[Keikaku]

When I think of classic laura croft, I think of like tomb raider 1-3... and she was pretty wooden there.

Seriously, Tomb Raider is a fucked up franchise in terms of how they treat Lara Croft.
They've never cared on making her anything in terms of writing, I mean fuck early Tomb Raider games were all about how hot she was hence Eidos hiring out Models to dress up as her and sell the game.

CD tried with their little trilogy Legend, Anniversary, Underworld but she still wasn't all that great but much better than original series and this new one for sure.

I agree with most of this.

The older games were more about the puzzles and the tombs; Lara herself was pretty much a non-entity in terms of meaningful characterization. Not sure about the current games but that's what I remember about the old ones.

 

[Harlequin]

They are, but the LAU trilogy was supposed to be carrying that Lara forward into more serious storytelling and it didn't work.

If that's what it was supposed to do, it did a piss-poor job of it. A much better example of a game that took the original Lara forward into more serious storytelling, as you put it, was Angel of Darkness and sure, that game had a whole host of issues when it was first released but storytelling is actually one of the things most people agree it got very right. Especially among Tomb Raider fans, its story is often cited as the best in the series and I'd even say that it's one of the best video game stories I've ever experienced (although it does have one or two minor plot holes due to content being cut to rush the game out the door). The actual, original Lara had enough depth to build a narrative-heavy game around, the problem is that a) Crystal has never tried to actually create a game featuring her but have instead tried to create their own (inferior) versions of the character which only bear a superficial resemblance to the original and b) there's something really wrong with Crystal's writing team and/or writing process as they simply seem incapable of good writing.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

Her sex appeal was one of the ways that made classic Lara interesting, she blew up big in the 90's and this was mainly due to the way Eidos at the time marketed her; her sex appeal.

That's still not a good excuse to go back to presenting her as a sexual object.

As for the costumes, you may like or not like them but you can't escape the fact they all are dull coloured, most of them are styled the same; she only wears trousers and no additional accessories like sunglasses or whatever. Fashion is another way to make a character interesting or at least not dull, by giving them variety and distinct features another one doesn't have.

They are dull coloured because the colour grading of the game is dull, but no, I genuinely think the outfits are good designs. For example the aviator jacket in ROTTR is great, as is the commando outfit (green turtleneck)

I hate to break it to you but an adventurer adventuring in Siberia is unlikely to be wearing anything other than trousers.

So you're saying you have to make a character a psychopath, or have the game acknowledge that the character needs to kill hundreds of others to make them interesting? I mean, I can't think of a single line modern Lara says in TR 2013 or ROtTR that stuck out to me as interesting or further contributed towards the development of her personality since she is the same character from beginning to end. Why does a character need to kill to make them interesting?

that's not what I said? I said that's currently the way her character is heading what with being obsessively driven so why not capitalise on that since it's already happening, they just don't want to acknowledge it?

People love Nathan Drake for a variety of reasons including his voice actor who people also love, Drake also has an actual, interesting personality similar to Indiana Jones. He typically doesn't respond "realistically" to situations or always talk about how he wants to escape or save somebody else unless it's to advance the plot, like if another main character is kidnapped. He is witty, charming and says funny one-liners from time to time (*gasp* just like classic Lara). Except with the case of classic Lara, her sex appeal played a large role in making her interesting along with her varied outfits. Women are allowed to look sexy.

Lara's sexuality played a large part in her marketing because it was the 90s, video games were considered at the time to be a boys club, and Lara was the perfect marketing tool due to the fact that she was an inanimate woman that they could pose however they liked so she could endorse or behave however they liked. It was not a good thing.

Like, yes, women are allowed to look sexy, and so are men, so until Nathan Drake is out there in booty shorts I'm fine with keeping Lara in trousers. Sorry!

If that's what it was supposed to do, it did a piss-poor job of it. A much better example of a game that took the original Lara forward into more serious storytelling, as you put it, was Angel of Darkness and sure, that game had a whole host of issues when it was first released but storytelling is actually one of the things most people agree it got very right. Especially among Tomb Raider fans, its story is often cited as the best in the series and I'd even say that it's one of the best video game stories I've ever experienced (although it does have one or two minor plot holes due to content being cut to rush the game out the door). The actual, original Lara had enough depth to build a narrative-heavy game around, the problem is that a) Crystal has never tried to actually create a game featuring her but have instead tried to create their own (inferior) versions of the character who only bear a superficial resemblance to the original and b) there's something really wrong with Crystal's writing team and/or writing process as they simply seem incapable of good writing.

With the LAU they tried to carry lara's design language forward and it didn't work. You ended up with really mediocre platforming, a poor story and a protagonist that looked out of place when compared to the other NPCs.

I agree with you that ROTTR doesnt have particularly good writing, I just think it's at a standard video game level, and I don't want them to throw out this new design of Lara because certain people want to see her wear less clothes and have nostalgia goggles for a Lara that wasn't a well constructed character. People need to accept that Lara's design - first and foremost - was made that way to be sexy and that's no way to set about creating a multi dimensional character.

 

[lukeskymac]

Please stop trying to handwave the writing. Most games have mediocre writing that doesn't even matter to the game as whole, but TR2013 and RotTR have aggressively obnoxious writing that actively brings the whole damn thing down.

 

[MUnited83]

You make it seem like original Lara was busting with personality :/

She didn't need to. She has a basoc archetype and that was fine. It wasn't a focus of the game so it doesn't really suffer for it.
TR2013 and RoTR are all about her personality, her character development, the story, the motivations. The writing is at the front centre of the game. And the writing is fucking terrible, so it then makes the game quite a lot worse.
I'll take my one dimensional snobbish Lara any day, because she's clearly defined ver succinctly and without any need to go further into it. Badly written drama only makes the game worse.

 

[Harlequin]

With the LAU they tried to carry lara's design language forward and it didn't work. You ended up with really mediocre platforming, a poor story and a protagonist that looked out of place when compared to the other NPCs.

No, no, I can't agree with that. LAU were very different games to Core's and it's clear that Crystal's design philosophy was a very different one, as well. If they tried to replicate Core's design philosophy, they clearly didn't understand it very well at all because what they came up with honestly feels like a different franchise entirely.

I agree with you that ROTTR doesnt have particularly good writing, I just think it's at a standard video game level, and I don't want them to throw out this new design of Lara because certain people want to see her wear less clothes and have nostalgia goggles for a Lara that wasn't a well constructed character. People need to accept that Lara's design - first and foremost - was made that way to be sexy and that's no way to set about creating a multi dimensional character.

We're talking about two very different things here, you're talking about her physical appearance (which I don't really care too much about, though I agree that her outfits should be designed to be practical, rather than to show a certain amount of skin), I'm talking about her personality and, contrary to what Eidos' marketing campaigns could have led one to believe, classic Lara never ever used her sexuality in the games. You can reintroduce the interesting, less cheesy personality and bio of classic Lara without making her look as oversexualised as she did.

 

[Easy_D]

Lmao, alcoholic by end of game

If your liver survives the ordeal

 

[Garrett Hawke]

No, no, I can't agree with that. LAU were very different games to Core's and it's clear that Crystal's design philosophy was a very different one, as well. If they tried to replicate Core's design philosophy, they clearly didn't understand it very well at all because what they came up with honestly feels like a different franchise entirely.

I agree with this, but I think actually you've identified below that I seem to be arguing with you on a different front without me even realising I meant they tried to take her visual style forward and it didn't work.

We're talking about two very different things here, you're talking about her physical appearance (which I don't really care too much about, though I agree that her outfits should be designed to be practical, rather than to show a certain amount of skin), I'm talking about her personality and, contrary to what Eidos' marketing campaigns could have led one to believe, classic Lara never ever used her sexuality in the games. You can reintroduce the interesting, less cheesy personality and bio of classic Lara without making her look as oversexualised as she did.

That's fair enough.

 

[Exploratory]

Honestly Uncharted killed Tomb Raider in my eyes. I look at a character like Chloe or Nadeen and they seem far more compelling.

 

[Harlequin]

I agree with this, but I think actually you've identified below that I seem to be arguing with you on a different front without me even realising I meant they tried to take her visual style forward and it didn't work.

Yeah, I wrote the first part before I realised that .