I just now glanced through some reviews; I honestly didn't know reviewers were praising the game design. I had assumed most of the positive impressions were directed towards the art and story. IMO the gameplay itself in Infinite is standard FPS fare, albeit with a few tweaks. Really surprised to see that the combat was praised so much.
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Modern shooters and the atrophy of fun
- Thread starter nbthedude
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I just now glanced through some reviews; I honestly didn't know reviewers were praising the game design. I had assumed most of the positive impressions were directed towards the art and story. IMO the gameplay itself in Infinite is standard FPS fare, albeit with a few tweaks. Really surprised to see that the combat was praised so much.
paperboywriter
Member
dayz
ichtyander
Member
The way I see it, Kowaliski is making a parallel between an oldschool Ken Levine designed game, and his latest one. That's mostly the reason SS2 and BI are mentioned, really. Well, and the fact that it's a BI rant.
Gotta admint, I feel pretty much the same about Bioshock Infinite's shooting gameplay. For me, it's lacking. But, in combination with the audio-visual and story aspects, it's really on another level than most FPS games today. So it's a better game than any military shooter today, even if you shouldn't compare them on some levels.
As for SS2, man, I'm in love with that game. And I can still say the shooting mechanics are not very good at all. They haven't aged well, and weren't that good even then, from a purely shooter standpoint. System Shock 2 is more of a first person survival RPG mashup thing than a straight up first person shooter. Same with Deus Ex. And STALKER. I just think this needs to be said and taken into account.
The Bioshock games are straight up first person shooters with everything else streamlined and dumbed down. Or maybe in other words, they have crystallized the shooting mechanics and tried to make it all more dynamic. I'm not getting into why they did it.
There are still some very fun first person shooters today, I can't argue with that. But System Shock 2 was an extremely well made mix of different genres, an interesting story and different gameplay mechanics (most of which aren't necessarily related to the FPS genre). This is what's lacking today in games that are mostly first and sometimes third person in perspective and are relying on the shooter aspect for interaction.
Maybe I'm just saying rubbish here, but I believe that the "FPS" abbreviation is a bit outdated, or at least somewhat problematic. Making comparisons between Call of Duty and Dishonored just creates even more useless debate. As is comparing System Shock 2 to Bioshock Infinite.
Personally, I'd like a bit more of SS2's design and ideas implemented today, a more complex mashup of genres, but that's just me. Complex doesn't necessarily mean better, but it can damn well help. It's just that nowadays we have something called a (freakin' huge) video games industry, so the priorities are mostly different.
Gotta admint, I feel pretty much the same about Bioshock Infinite's shooting gameplay. For me, it's lacking. But, in combination with the audio-visual and story aspects, it's really on another level than most FPS games today. So it's a better game than any military shooter today, even if you shouldn't compare them on some levels.
As for SS2, man, I'm in love with that game. And I can still say the shooting mechanics are not very good at all. They haven't aged well, and weren't that good even then, from a purely shooter standpoint. System Shock 2 is more of a first person survival RPG mashup thing than a straight up first person shooter. Same with Deus Ex. And STALKER. I just think this needs to be said and taken into account.
The Bioshock games are straight up first person shooters with everything else streamlined and dumbed down. Or maybe in other words, they have crystallized the shooting mechanics and tried to make it all more dynamic. I'm not getting into why they did it.
There are still some very fun first person shooters today, I can't argue with that. But System Shock 2 was an extremely well made mix of different genres, an interesting story and different gameplay mechanics (most of which aren't necessarily related to the FPS genre). This is what's lacking today in games that are mostly first and sometimes third person in perspective and are relying on the shooter aspect for interaction.
Maybe I'm just saying rubbish here, but I believe that the "FPS" abbreviation is a bit outdated, or at least somewhat problematic. Making comparisons between Call of Duty and Dishonored just creates even more useless debate. As is comparing System Shock 2 to Bioshock Infinite.
Personally, I'd like a bit more of SS2's design and ideas implemented today, a more complex mashup of genres, but that's just me. Complex doesn't necessarily mean better, but it can damn well help. It's just that nowadays we have something called a (freakin' huge) video games industry, so the priorities are mostly different.
Extra Sauce
Member
The number one problem with shooters today is the slavish conforming to reality.
More jetpacks please.
AlimNassor
Banned
I wish we could get more Quake/unreal type games. i have ADD, and I like going fast. It's bizarre people think slow ADS CoD type games are fun. I want to zoom around the map shooting rockets and lasers and chasing people down. In my day kids loved unreal and quake. Counterstrike? Everyone hated that game for being too slow and hard.
This is why I loved the Halo series, it wasn't as fast as unreal/quake, but, it was still fast paced. It wasn't like CoD where you had to ADS and everything was slow.
Tribes was fucking fun and still is.
I just want to go fucking fast as hell and shoot things with my rocket launcher. Why is that so complicated?
This is why I loved the Halo series, it wasn't as fast as unreal/quake, but, it was still fast paced. It wasn't like CoD where you had to ADS and everything was slow.
Tribes was fucking fun and still is.
I just want to go fucking fast as hell and shoot things with my rocket launcher. Why is that so complicated?
Messofanego
Banned
More magic, movement, and alt-fire abilities in shooters!
Darkness 2
Bulletstorm
Vanquish
Far Cry 3
Darkness 2
Bulletstorm
Vanquish
Far Cry 3
you win. every shooter needs something along these lines.
ichtyander
Member
I haven't played DmC yet, so I don't know how good the combat mechanics are.
Awesome, more blanket statements and assumptions. You know there is a difference between not liking something and something actually being bad right?
Riposte
Member
Sorry, that was uncalled for on my part then.
I did play the demo and thought the combat was pretty tight and focused, I just don't know how well the mechanics come together throughout the game.
I love that this is an ongoing discussion following the release of Infinite. This is a problem that needs to be solved going forward with the coming generation of consoles. A return to focus on engaging gameplay in big-budget releases would be a huge improvement over the current status quo in the industry.
The reason that Infinite, in particular, has taken so much heat for its derivative, tedious combat is because it had an opportunity to finally represent an alternative to all of the COD-lite shooters that have flooded the market for years. It had a visionary director, a talented team, seemingly lots of freedom and development time, and critical reception that seemed to suggest that it was something revolutionary. The fact that it turned out just like every other bland shooter from a gameplay standpoint is an extremely disappointing reminder of the unlikelihood of things changing any time soon.
I am on the verge of competing my first play through of Infinite, and I can say that I have slogged through all of the firefights just to see where the story is going. I groan every time I walk into yet another room with tears, ammo, and other combat indicators.
The reason that Infinite, in particular, has taken so much heat for its derivative, tedious combat is because it had an opportunity to finally represent an alternative to all of the COD-lite shooters that have flooded the market for years. It had a visionary director, a talented team, seemingly lots of freedom and development time, and critical reception that seemed to suggest that it was something revolutionary. The fact that it turned out just like every other bland shooter from a gameplay standpoint is an extremely disappointing reminder of the unlikelihood of things changing any time soon.
I am on the verge of competing my first play through of Infinite, and I can say that I have slogged through all of the firefights just to see where the story is going. I groan every time I walk into yet another room with tears, ammo, and other combat indicators.
NullPointer
Member
This post is truly full of win. Extra points for the Darkness 2 and Bulletstorm love.More magic, movement, and alt-fire abilities in shooters!
Darkness 2
Bulletstorm
...
gwynplaine
Banned
just a thought on my personal tastes. i think going in the complete opposite direction would have worked well for infinite too.
min maxed the game on hard with mainly shock/bronco. the game doesn't reward charge / shotguns that much. too easy to die when charging in. or it's too easy to run the salts. even though there's a lot of pickups everywhere anyway.
i think it would have been a lot more fun and responsive if powers could be quick binded and if it played like a run and gun shooter. less of a deliberate take cover console shooter.
think about how fun jedi outcast was and how similar the powers were - mind trick, force pull/push/grip is like bronco, lightning and shield are just some that come to mind. not knocking infinite - i mean there are only so many ways you can kill a guy.
but the way it was incorporated in jedi outcast and how all the moves were used on the fly rather than going through a menu or two buttons meant you can play it on the fly. i'd rather just have pressed 4 and have lightning shoot out of my hands. waiting for the powers in infinite didn't feel fun because of the menu pause in selecting powers. if it were designed around that it would be a completely different game and other people would hate it too, but at least it wouldn't be in this netherzone of a shooter that it is in right now.
i think the recharging powers bar would have worked better in infinite too. picking everything up and rummaging through garbages encourages the player to explore and see more of the environment. but that's about it. it's more for the designer to show off his work. unless some of you find digging through garbage to be fun.
min maxed the game on hard with mainly shock/bronco. the game doesn't reward charge / shotguns that much. too easy to die when charging in. or it's too easy to run the salts. even though there's a lot of pickups everywhere anyway.
i think it would have been a lot more fun and responsive if powers could be quick binded and if it played like a run and gun shooter. less of a deliberate take cover console shooter.
think about how fun jedi outcast was and how similar the powers were - mind trick, force pull/push/grip is like bronco, lightning and shield are just some that come to mind. not knocking infinite - i mean there are only so many ways you can kill a guy.
but the way it was incorporated in jedi outcast and how all the moves were used on the fly rather than going through a menu or two buttons meant you can play it on the fly. i'd rather just have pressed 4 and have lightning shoot out of my hands. waiting for the powers in infinite didn't feel fun because of the menu pause in selecting powers. if it were designed around that it would be a completely different game and other people would hate it too, but at least it wouldn't be in this netherzone of a shooter that it is in right now.
i think the recharging powers bar would have worked better in infinite too. picking everything up and rummaging through garbages encourages the player to explore and see more of the environment. but that's about it. it's more for the designer to show off his work. unless some of you find digging through garbage to be fun.
rohlfinator
Member
That, and the early gameplay trailers gave a glimpse of some truly different gameplay that the final game didn't totally deliver on. Whether that stuff was realistically possible is another discussion, but it certainly raised my expectations.
Completely disagree about Infinite and the Big Daddies. The Big Daddies were such a chore in Bioshock 1 beyond the first one. They all fell prey to the same tricks and traps and every encounter wound up playing the same for me. Just couldn't really get into the combat in the first Bioshock at all beyond the novelty of the bee plasmid. Combat in Infinite on the other hand is always exhilarating and fun. Probably helps I'm playing on 1999 mode. For example, I rarely feel overstocked on ammo like the article complains about. There are many many times where I'll have a room still chock full of enemies and I'm hoping Elizabeth can scrounge up those extra two rounds, or I can last long enough to get guns from fallen foes because I'm full out of everything
The Xtortionist
Member
A major problem I have with most shooters is the lack of a dodge mechanic. Without the ability to dodge, enemy attacks end up being unavoidable unless you're hiding behind cover, which generally isn't very fun. Like. Metroid Prime had a nice strafe jump dodge which opened up a bunch of fun possibilities for enemy and boss designs. Halo 4's thruster pack ability was damn close but it wasn't integrated as a core mechanic.
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
mickcenary
Member
The FPS genre needs to get "Dark Souls'd".
you didn't need a dodge button back when you ran at 40 miles per hour anyway.
anyone complaining that FPS are mechanically shallow yet preferences thumbsticks anyway is part of the problem.
MiamiWesker
Member
I tried to play System Shock 2 but was horribly bored. I'm sorry but slowly shooting a monkey for like 5 minutes hoping it would finally die is not fun in any way. Yes I know you need to find other solutions but everything in that game felt like a chore. There needs to be a balance and your character does not need to feel like a weakling. I am a big RE fan so I love the whole getting by with limited ammo bit but RE never makes the player feel like crap, if you got the guns they work. Just couldn't enjoy it, I much prefer the good fun action that Bioshock provides than that chore they called action of System Shock 2.
MiamiWesker
Member
LOL you are doing it wrong. Charge is by far the most overpowered game breaking super power in the game. You become unstoppable if you use it right.
SneakyStephan
Banned
Bioshock infinite gets a lot of points for allowing hipfire, having weapons that aren't only hitscan garbage and trying for a little bit of mobility in combat.
It's no painkiller but as the OP mentions at least it's not cod style ultratripe.
It's a shame the entire gameplay experience is sullied, killed then has its corpse shat on and in by the awful awful pseudo mouse controls. (emulated analog stick)
You could make the best gun behavior, have the most brilliant alt fires, best enemy AI, best sound and best movement physics that a thousand of the greatest game designers to live in the next ten thousands years can come up with, if you fuck up the controls to THIS extent it's all moot.
It's no painkiller but as the OP mentions at least it's not cod style ultratripe.
It's a shame the entire gameplay experience is sullied, killed then has its corpse shat on and in by the awful awful pseudo mouse controls. (emulated analog stick)
You could make the best gun behavior, have the most brilliant alt fires, best enemy AI, best sound and best movement physics that a thousand of the greatest game designers to live in the next ten thousands years can come up with, if you fuck up the controls to THIS extent it's all moot.
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