Montreal Transit Threatens Suing Counter-Strike Map

CountAntonius

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The Escapist

Map In Question

Liatis said he received a letter from the Société de transport de Montreal saying its doesn't want its "copyrighted metro network" to appear the game and that it will consider legal action against him if the map, which is still in development for Counter-strike: Global Offensive, is released. "[The STM] told me that they feared the game could create panic among the city's public transit users," he said.

Liatis requested permission to recreate the station in January, but the STM refused to grant it. He went ahead with the design anyway, because he doesn't believe he can be legally forbidden from recreating a public space. Frédéric Denis, a programmer on the project, described the situation as "ridiculous" and said that terrorists who want to learn the details of the station's layout can just go there and ride around on the subway, like he did.

Liatis said the STM threatened him with a $50,000 fine plus court costs if the map is released to the public. An STM representative confirmed that legal action is being considered but would not comment further.
Suing Over Counter-Strike Map* Can a mod fix please.

Bolded makes me wonder why the guy went ahead with it anyway. Their reasoning is pretty dumb but he probably should have stopped at that point.
 

Visualante2

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That's what you get for asking for permission. Had he not bothered they probably wouldn't even know the map exists or care. Lawyers smell money like flies smell shit.

Depending on where the map is created, couldn't this be protected under the whole first amendment?
 

Jenga

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but what if i wanted to take in the sites and sounds of the montreal transist system while i shoot an AK

it might compel me to visit irl

without the AK
 

Vamphuntr

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I don't think it's totally a public space since you actually pay to have access to the métro. He could potentially lose this one as I think they are right in not wanting to get associated with a FPS.

He should really make it breaks down randomly often like the real thing for the laughs, tough.

That's what you get for asking for permission. Had he not bothered they probably wouldn't even know the map exists or care. Lawyers smell money like flies smell shit.

Depending on where the map is created, couldn't this be protected under the whole first amendment?
Canada, dude.
 

Onion_Relish

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That's what you get for asking for permission. Had he not bothered they probably wouldn't even know the map exists or care. Lawyers smell money like flies smell shit.

Depending on where the map is created, couldn't this be protected under the whole first amendment?
Are you reading what youre writing?

"Dear sir/madam, I'm sending this email to ask if I can make a map based on your metroline wherein terrorists and various law enforcement officials shoot at one another in order to gain money and notoriety in a popular online video game"

Also its in canada, so first amendment doesn't come into play (not that it would come into play If the example was America either, but yeah.)

I hate to call you out directly, but that was just a Shitty post.

As for the issue at hand, the guy will buckle, dumb idea to begin with.
 

Rubius

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Are you reading what youre writing?

"Dear sir/madam, I'm sending this email to ask if I can make a map based on your metroline wherein terrorists and various law enforcement officials shoot at one another in order to gain money and notoriety in a popular online video game"

Also its in canada, so first amendment doesn't come into play (not that it would come into play If the example was America either, but yeah.)

I hate to call you out directly, but that was just a Shitty post.

As for the issue at hand, the guy will buckle, dumb idea to begin with.
You have the constitution, we have the Chart of Rights and Freedoms.
"Freedom of speech in Canada is protected as a "fundamental freedom" by Section 2 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
As in many democracies, freedom of speech is protected but it is not absolute; Section 1 of the Charter allows the government to pass laws that limit free expression so long as the limits are reasonable and can be justified. [1] This can often be the subject of controversy as some feel the conditions for reasonable justification are vague, granting the government an unreasonable amount of control over freedom of speech. Others feel that such restrictions are absolutely necessary in order to balance the fundamental freedoms of one party against those of another. Hate speech and obscenity are two examples that gain a lot of attention. [2]"
 

gaming_noob

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That looks like a very straight forward map and you can argue it looks like any other metro station. He's going to have to remove the official train station map gif in the subway cars and he should be safe...
 

Visualante2

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Are you reading what youre writing?

"Dear sir/madam, I'm sending this email to ask if I can make a map based on your metroline wherein terrorists and various law enforcement officials shoot at one another in order to gain money and notoriety in a popular online video game"

Also its in canada, so first amendment doesn't come into play (not that it would come into play If the example was America either, but yeah.)

I hate to call you out directly, but that was just a Shitty post.

As for the issue at hand, the guy will buckle, dumb idea to begin with.
If you want to call me out directly, feel free to explain why this wouldn't be allowed instead of assuming that everyone understands copyright of buildings, establishments and freedom of speech. Thanks.

Speaking as a mapper, if I wanted to make a map inspired by any public place. I would just fucking do it. I don't feel the need to ask permission given that I would not be making a profit.
 
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Pro tip to any modders out there: never ask permission. Even if the company likes your thing, the legal effort and complexities involved mean they probably can't say 'yes' anyway and may have to say 'no' and then follow it up like in this case.
 

Rubius

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Pro tip to any modders out there: never ask permission. Even if the company likes your thing, the legal effort and complexities involved mean they probably can't say 'yes' anyway and may have to say 'no' and then follow it up like in this case.
Meanwhile in Russia, we have a entire game based on the Moscow metro system, inhabited with monsters and Nazis.
 

Vamphuntr

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If you want to call me out directly, feel free to explain why this wouldn't be allowed instead of assuming that everyone understands copyright of buildings, establishments and freedom of speech. Thanks.

Speaking as a mapper, if I wanted to make a map inspired by any public place. I would just fucking do it. I don't feel the need to ask permission given that I would not be making a profit.
It's not really about a public place, to be honest. STM is a brand too. You cannot use it like you see fit. Moreover, it's not totally public since 1-you need to buy a ticket to get access to the station and 2- you can't do anything you want inside the station anyway. For instance you need permission to actually sell stuff inside stations and to actually do publicity stunts.

The original article is from this http://www.journaldemontreal.com/2013/02/16/le-metro-en-guerre

And to be honest the guy seems a bit like those angry people yelling at you in mutliplayer games :

«Je me ferai pas fermer ma gueule par la STM, s’est insurgé M. Liatis. J’aimerais qu’on me montre la loi qui m’interdit de reproduire un lieu public.»
«Ils sont en train de me bâillonner. Moi je prends ça comme s’ils voulaient m’intimider. Il me semble que le parti conservateur est à Ottawa»
Apparently the Lias guy is an entrepreneur of a small video game related company according to the comments section so there is probably a business opportunity behind all this.
 

Visualante2

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It's not really about a public place, to be honest. STM is a brand too. You cannot use it like you see fit. Moreover, it's not totally public since 1-you need to buy a ticket to get access to the station and 2- you can't do anything you want inside the station anyway. For instance you need permission to actually sell stuff inside stations and to actually do publicity stunts.

The original article is from this http://www.journaldemontreal.com/2013/02/16/le-metro-en-guerre

And to be honest the guy seems a bit like those angry people yelling at you in mutliplayer games :





Apparently the Lias guy is an entrepreneur of a small video game related company according to the comments section so there is probably a business opportunity behind all this.
Under the right light, anything can be seen as a brand. Certain countries and tourism boards, such as Kazakhstan take offence to Sacha Baron Cohen making fun of them in the (commercial) movie Borat. Ultimately this space is open to the public, anyone can visit, anyone can pull out their camera phone and take a picture. This type of thing isn't actually enforced. You have to pay for a visa to visit most countries, no? Just because something has a price attached doesn't mean it's exempt from being criticized or derived from in creative works.

Your notes about selling things, and performance art are interesting but more relevant to health and safety and commercial franchising than anything. While STM is absolutely a brand unless it is specifically referenced in the map textures, I don't think they'd have a case really. If the creator is going that far then he could just take it out and use a fake brand.

As for your ad hominems, that's interesting, but besides the point. Entrepreneurs (or even assholes) aren't excluded from non profit actions or freedom of speech.

 

Grimsen

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wow, the guy sounds like a grade-A douchebag.

What kind of moron would ever think a private company would agree to have their subway network used in a game involving terrorists.

Some of the stations look cool, they'd be awesome in a game. Just make a pseudo MTL subway with a similar look.
 

Vamphuntr

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Under the right light, anything can be seen as a brand. Certain countries and tourism boards, such as Kazakhstan take offence to Sacha Baron Cohen making fun of them in the (commercial) movie Borat. Ultimately this space is open to the public, anyone can visit, anyone can pull out their camera phone and take a picture. This type of thing isn't actually enforced. You have to pay for a visa to visit most countries, no? Just because something has a price attached doesn't mean it's exempt from being criticized or derived from in creative works.

Your notes about selling things, and performance art are interesting but more relevant to health and safety and commercial franchising than anything. While STM is absolutely a brand unless it is specifically referenced in the map textures, I don't think they'd have a case really. If the creator is going that far then he could just take it out and use a fake brand.

As for your ad hominems, that's interesting, but besides the point. Entrepreneurs (or even assholes) aren't excluded from non profit actions or freedom of speech.

[IMG.]https://i.minus.com/jbxWunvmtqd6eS.jpg[/IMG]
Freedom of speech doesn't mean you can use any brand in any way you see fit either. As for you example of Borat I can give you the example of Homeland that is being threatened by a lawsuit from the minister of Tourism of Beirut since the show pictured the city as being filled with terrorists while this is not the case. By your logic it's a public space anyone can visit too and you need to pay for a passport and a plane ticket there.

As for the photos thing, you are wrong too. You actually need permission from them to take photos if it's for a project. It's part of the terms you agree when using the métro.

http://www.stm.info/en-bref/photos.htm

La STM permet la prise de photos dans le métro mais à certaines conditions. Toute personne ayant un projet précis doit d'abord contacter l'équipe des Affaires publiques par téléphone au 514 280-4941 ou par télécopieur
au 514 280-5658.
 

Visualante2

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I don't know the specifics of that case, I assume they were required to obtain permission to film? I don't have time to look into it but I know that a show like Homeland will have media lawyers who are experts on this. They probably wouldn't have greenlit it if they didn't think they have a leg to stand on.
 

Rubius

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Freedom of speech doesn't mean you can use any brand in any way you see fit either. As for you example of Borat I can give you the example of Homeland that is being threatened by a lawsuit from the minister of Tourism of Beirut since the show pictured the city as being filled with terrorists while this is not the case. By your logic it's a public space anyone can visit too and you need to pay for a passport and a plane ticket there.

As for the photos thing, you are wrong too. You actually need permission from them to take photos if it's for a project. It's part of the terms you agree when using the métro.

http://www.stm.info/en-bref/photos.htm
Yeah, its like an hospital. Since its "private" you cannot bring a camera crew without permissions inside.
 

Visualante2

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Freedom of speech doesn't mean you can use any brand in any way you see fit either. As for you example of Borat I can give you the example of Homeland that is being threatened by a lawsuit from the minister of Tourism of Beirut since the show pictured the city as being filled with terrorists while this is not the case. By your logic it's a public space anyone can visit too and you need to pay for a passport and a plane ticket there.

As for the photos thing, you are wrong too. You actually need permission from them to take photos if it's for a project. It's part of the terms you agree when using the métro.

http://www.stm.info/en-bref/photos.htm
For a project sure, but you upload it to twitter and they profit from advertising. Some things cannot be enforced. We have all these anti terror laws for photographing public places. Police harassing tourists when real smart terrorists can just attach a GoPro camera to an RC plane and fly it about from a distance.
Yeah, its like an hospital. Since its "private" you cannot bring a camera crew without permissions inside.
That's to protect people's privacy more than a brand. Either way that's not in violation here.
 

MARNEY

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Canada, eh!
Wow too much. Have been in that metro station from time to time. Would be cool to have it in a game. Should change it up a bit as to not suffer the wrath of the transit company.
 

Rubius

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For a project sure, but you upload it to twitter and they profit from advertising. Some things cannot be enforced. We have all these anti terror laws for photographing public places. Police harassing tourists when real smart terrorists can just attach a GoPro camera to an RC plane and fly it about from a distance.

That's to protect people's privacy more than a brand. Either way that's not in violation here.
Well for an hospital, its for privacy, for the metro, I really dont know. You can film people in a public area, its really not a problem. Totally in right with every right out there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPr2SKf2fX0
You are in public and a metro have nothing to do with privacy. So I dont know. Even more since its a metropolitan service partially paid with taxes
 

elfinke

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The problem is that the map would only work so often and you would have to play on Cs_Bus instead.
Even though I have nothing to do with the area concerned, the general point of this joke is sogood.gif that I was compelled to comment.
 

Madouu

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wow, the guy sounds like a grade-A douchebag.

What kind of moron would ever think a private company would agree to have their subway network used in a game involving terrorists.

Some of the stations look cool, they'd be awesome in a game. Just make a pseudo MTL subway with a similar look.
STM is not a private company though, half of its financing comes from the city/province.
 

Rubius

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STM is not a private company though, half of its financing comes from the city/province.
"The STM's budget has increased every year since 2000, when it was 620 million dollars. In 2012, the budget was 1.2 billion dollars. One reason for this increase is due to more maintenance being needed. Of this 1.2 billion dollars, 0.9% was dedicated to fixing old infrastructure.
The STM's budget comes from two sources: ticket fares and government funding. Because the STM needs more money as the years go by, ticket fares have been increasing. Since 1985, when the fare cost were 85 cents, the price gone up by 353%, but since 2006, the fares have only increases by 9%."