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"More States Allowing Guns in Bars"
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empty vessel
Member
Wthermans said:
What a joke.
empty vessel
Member
Branduil said:
You're comparing fending off fellow American citizens in a bar on Main Street to (1) fending off the British during the American revolution; (2) Texas's war of independence; and (3) the Spanish-American war?
Just checking. If so, you're a sociopathic cretin, notwithstanding the independent moral objections to some of your references.
If you meant some other reference by this, feel free to enlighten me.
Wthermans said:
Hey, feel free to expound, but I have little patience for the "rights" of cowardly gun-holders.
empty vessel said:
It seems to me that you've already passed judgement on someone that legally carries. Nothing I "expound" on will change your mind on the legal right to carry so explain to me why I should waste time explaining how pretty much nothing you have said pertaining to this law is true. This law exists on the basis that people in the US have the legal right to carry and until you agree with that, you won't ever stop spouting your misinformation.
Bars aren't legally allowed in Tennessee. A place that serves alcohol must have a certain percentage of food sales before being issued an on-premise permit by the ABC. This law was never wrote to allow guns in bars. It was meant to allow guns in restaurants that serve alcohol (such as Applebees, OCharley's, Hooters, BWW, etc).Zzoram said:
empty vessel
Member
Wthermans said:
At some point, responsible gun owners--you know, those who don't feel the need to carry their guns with them at all times, including in bars, out of some delusional, petrified fear that they will need it to defend themselves against some black homeless guy--will need to stand up to this senselessness.
It's sad to think, but I am not actually anti-gun. Far from it, I even support the 2d Amendment (the real one). I just oppose this utterly ridiculous movement of the last 20 years that insists that guns are the solution to crime and that blowing away your fellow citizens is a "right." What putrid nonsense that is.
empty vessel said:
I can't say I agree. I don't think lethal force should be used, but there have been numerous cases in even the last year in East Tennessee where a violent crime has been stopped thanks to a CCW holder that holds a suspect at gunpoint until law enforcement arrives.
BTW, you really need to learn the laws of this state if you're going to attempt to trash them. Bars are not legally allowed in TN and any place you suspect of being one should be reported to the ABC.
Dreams-Visions
Member
guns in bars are not needed at all.
although those of us with concealed carry licenses are generally infinitely more responsible than anyone gives us credit for, I just don't like the idea. even in self-defense or the defense of another, a tipsy CCW guy drawing his weapon is a problem for all sorts of reasons.
although those of us with concealed carry licenses are generally infinitely more responsible than anyone gives us credit for, I just don't like the idea. even in self-defense or the defense of another, a tipsy CCW guy drawing his weapon is a problem for all sorts of reasons.
There was a shooting in early September at S&S Cafeteria (they don't serve alcohol so CCW holders could already legally carry---there were none on the scene however) that left a cashier dead. The shooting was done by a disgruntled employee (he was also an ex-felon---aka could not legally own a firearm) who was eventually shot and killed by officers attempting an arrest (he also shot and struck an officer in his bullet proof vest).soco said:
Who says it's only someone robbing the place? A few years back, there was a disgruntled patron (non-CCW holder) who went out to his car, grabbed a pistol, came back in and shot and killed the manager and an innocent bystander. In the story I mentioned above, the suspect was a disgruntled employee. It's not about just preventing robberies (as that's not likely to happen in a place with a lot of witnesses).Zzoram said:
Anyway, it's 4AM and I must head to bed as I have work in the morning. I'm subscribed to this thread though so hopefully it has some better discussion after people learn a bit about the law in question and exactly why this was implemented.
Dreams-Visions
Member
"Mr. Ringenberg, a technology consultant, is one of the states nearly 300,000 handgun permit holders who have recently seen their rights greatly expanded by a new law one of the nations first that allows them to carry loaded firearms into bars and restaurants that serve alcohol."Wthermans said:
so...what did I miss? the only way you can carry a gun is with a concealed carry permit in most states. that's what a "handgun permit" is.
it goes on to mention restaurants and bars.
so again...what did I miss?
No big deal here. People are allowed to CC in PA everywhere but basically Schools, Casinos, and Government buildings for years. It's not like the Wild West here, slinging iron at the bar over a dispute if the Eagles or Steelers are the better team. In fact, when there has been shootings around me (i never had one personally yet), it's basically people who are not permitted to have firearms that obtained them illegally anyways. Many bars have signs posted they don't want guns in there, and you have to respect it as it's private property. Those that bring them in anyways are not usually law abiding citizens.
FunkyMunkey
Banned
Branduil said:
empty vessel said:
Precisely.
Branduil said:
Ignoring what he actually posted doesn't really help you at all here.
empty vessel said:
Sad to say a lot of people will probably gloss over this part.
FunkyMunkey
Banned
Branduil said:
He called them cowards, and you used George Washington, Davy Crockett, Teddy Roosevelt to say they weren't.
He then explained how we live in different times today than we did back then, which conveniently seems to be a crucial point most pro gun-rights people ignore.
Ignoring his over-the-top ness about it, his point is solid (minus throwing around titles).
The simple and elegant solution to this would be to have the guns in individual lockboxes, and the only way to open them would be to play and win a game of chess on the lcd screen positioned somewhere on the box which would control the lock. Drunk people can seldom play chess well, and if you can't play chess, it's a healthy incentive to learn the game of kings!
Neuromancer
Member
Being a designated driver?Zzoram said:
Hanging out with friends?
Getting something to eat?
Dreams-Visions
Member
I wonder if the Americans that lost their lives inside the country secondary to violence pleaded with their attacker, "...but we live in different times!!!" at some point during their final moments.FunkyMunkey said:
I consider my firearms to be insurance. Something I have and hope to never, ever need to use.
I see. I am still missing something. this is a state where people can open carry without a CCW? I know Virginia is like that, and it's interesting that they would have such a different rule for concealed vs open. open carry + bar = okay. concealed carry + bar = jail time.Wthermans said:
Neuromancer
Member
Yeah I agree. And life in the USA is still dangerous, all you have do is open a newspaper to see who in your area was shot/stabbed last night.Dreams-Visions said:
Dreams-Visions
Member
could be very easily argued that open carry in bars would greatly reduce the amount of potential violence at bars, along with how much people drink.Diablos said:
no?
Sure, there could be a situation where a gun would resolve a potentially violent conflict.Dreams-Visions said:
That being said, guns and alcohol are a deadly combination. What is this, the wild west? This is just a bad, bad idea. Armed guards are fine. Random people walking into a bar who may or may not react poorly to excess alcohol consumption is not.
Diablos said:
YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DRINK WHILE CARRYING A GUN. People really need to read the thread. This is about Tennessee where bars are actually illegal. This is about restaurants that serve alcohol and having the ability to carry a gun in them like you legally can in a restaurant that does not. The prohibition on drinking while carrying does not change with this law.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Not taking either side in this debate, but is it possible your concerns are predicated on your mental imagery of "the wild west"?Diablos said:
I tend to think of things like this like mutually-assured destruction. sure you can launch a nuke, but there will be a few coming back at you. so no nukes get launched from anyone. in the same way, couldn't we suggest that people wouldn't start doing strange things in bars or restaurants because no matter how drunk they get or angry with another patron, they are aware that someone else might remove their life from the planet should they get aggressive. so overall safety at bars actually improves considerably.
what are the laws regarding bar carrying in Switzerland. I'm pretty sure there's a gun or two in every home there...and satisfyingly low firearm death rates.
TN doesn't make a distinction between open and concealed carry. You're given a "handgun carry permit" which allows both open and concealed carry so you're bound by the laws of where carry is permitted regardless of how you're carrying.Dreams-Visions said:
Good thing you can't carry if you drink. But I guess guns even being around alcohol causes them to spontaneously go off now.Diablos said:
Dreams-Visions
Member
o i c.Wthermans said:
that was my missing link.
Wthermans said:
No. That's not true at all. It's illegal to carry and drink. There's not some magical elf that says hey you just drank a beer so now I'm going to take your gun away. Let's not be naive here. The amount of people that are going to think, oops I'm going to be drinking I better leave my gun at home is minuscule.
If you're a permit holder, that's something you do every time you think about drinking (or going to a place that serves alcohol). Someone that thinks that way was already going to carry beforehand (illegally at that), but this allows those that are going to a restaurant with their family to have a nice meal, the right to protect themselves instead of walking into a gun-free zone.TheBranca18 said:
TheBranca18 said:
but that would be true before it was legal to take guns anywhere NEAR alcohol as well, people can occasionally forget they have their gun with them or assume it's not against the law. (since even legal gun owners can be idiots) I'm not sure how that argument helps your case much though since your scenario could occur before or after it was legal.
captmcblack
Member
Legally being permitted to carry a firearm into an establishment where judgement-impairing substances are being served to those people who are legally allowed to carry those firearms will do nothing to stop them from shooting someone who fucks with them inside the establishment with their legal firearm.
But I understand the technically sound nature of the defense of this, and understand why you technically aren't wrong for doing so as a responsible gun owner.
I just feel like there is a place for firearms, and it's not in the bar; I wish people would accept that as something that makes rational sense, rather than trying to defend it in a legal sense.
But I understand the technically sound nature of the defense of this, and understand why you technically aren't wrong for doing so as a responsible gun owner.
I just feel like there is a place for firearms, and it's not in the bar; I wish people would accept that as something that makes rational sense, rather than trying to defend it in a legal sense.
SmokyDave said:
The whole concealed carry movement was largely pushed because of someone actually needing a gun in a restaurant.
Luby's massacre
To me, it really isn't. There have been shootings in schools and town centres in the UK. I wouldn't feel safer if we put more guns in schools and town centres.Wthermans said:
I dunno, my feelings aren't really relevant as I live somewhere that only criminals have the guns and yet I can still go decades without seeing a gun. I simply can't imagine living somewhere where the threat of being shot to death was so likely that I felt the need to carry a gun for my own protection.
Yeah, as I said above, to me, that's not good enough. Using that style of precedent I could justify arming every teacher in the UK. Bad idea.Yoritomo said:
It's not even about being shot to death. It's to prevent a stabbing (which the rate of is much higher in the UK than the States), mugging, kidnapping, or rape of a loved one.SmokyDave said:
I don't think I'm going to have bodily harm every day I walk out the door, but I feel a lot better knowing that if something does happen and I have the opportunity to protect myself or deter the action from happening, then I have the legally right to seize that opportunity. There are risks involved for sure, but given that the SCOTUS has ruled that PDs don't have an obligation to provide service (and their response times can be the matter between life and death), I'll take those risks in an effort to take my personal protection into my own hands. I view it as no more different than having a fire extinguisher in my home/car in the unlikely case there is a fire (yes I know there's a difference between an extinguisher and a gun, but I'm simply using the protection analogy).
SmokyDave said:
This is like saying "I simply can't imagine living somewhere where the threat of dying was so likely I felt the need to have life insurance." You don't carry a gun because you think something WILL happen, you carry a gun as a means of protection in case something DID happen to occur. Just like a parent with kids should have life insurance in case something happens to make sure their kids have better resources going forward (and so whoever is caring for them can give them the best life possible) even though a young parent is not particularly likely to die.
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