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Motion-sensitive lightsabers coming to Wii.
- Thread starter Weisheit
- Start date
boutrosinit
Street Fighter IV World Champion
The Sphinx said:
Until swords collide. Then you're fucked.
Evangelion-style mech games would be better IMO, as when their swords collide, they dramatically knock each away very far and then have to attack again. It's more like jousting in mid air really.
Omar Ismail
Banned
boutrosinit said:
Exactly. And this is exactly how collisions CAN work. This is the way 1:1 sword combat can work...
You have TWO sabers. One that is virtual, one that is physical. The physical saber is the one that is interacting with the game world colliding against objects in the game world, hurting enemies, etc. The virtual saber is the 1:1 mapping. During normal instances the virtual and physical sabers match exactly, and thus you have 1:1 control. In the case of a collision there can be a BREAK between the synchronization. In this case you could show the virtual saber very faintly to show the person how they have to adjust their Wiimote to line back up and synchronize with the physical. Once they've synched up they regain control of the physical saber.
Two game design corollaries come out of this.
1. Advanced users can opt to NOT show the virtual saber at all making things more hardcore/realistic. And use their brain/imagination to simulate the collision themselves. This would actually work better than you think.
2. The consequences for making wild actions would be built into the control mechanism! If you take a big swing and get blocked then PHYSICALLY it's going to take your arms longer to synch up, so intrinsically there is a risk/reward mechanism in the combat.
Smart systems could also use the Wii pointer to aid in motion tracking.
Shard said:
Well, the saber combat looked pretty good in the game, actually. I believe sword clashes were handled by button presses to break a lock. Not bad really, an a whole lot more realistic an expectation than what some are hoping for. Games gotta be fun in the end. They should do whatever it takes to make it so, and don't get wrapped up in an overly ambitious and ultimately flawed swordfighting model just to please the unrealistic expectations of some fans.
boutrosinit
Street Fighter IV World Champion
Omar Ismail said:
It's not as simple as it sounds. Basically, if you're willing to put up with the teething stage of this compromise, the game can be enjoyable. Problem is, a lot of purists with high-expectations just want put up with it.
Action pacing is also a big challenge.
donkey show
Member
It works like this.GDGF said:
Waggle = swing beam saber/heat hawk
Waggle faster = swing faster
In the case of collision, waggle like mad.
The beam saber controls are very simple a la Twilight Princess where a swing in a certain direction does not equal what's on screen. Still fun regardless considering how fast the game is.
Sweeeeeeeeeeeeet.
The speaker bits are gonna be dope. Correct me if I'm wrong but don't lightsabers cut through everything anyway? Other than other sabers obviously. I don't care how they work it out. Combine saber action with a PSI-Ops style physics system to chuck stuff at uglies and I'm sold.
The speaker bits are gonna be dope. Correct me if I'm wrong but don't lightsabers cut through everything anyway? Other than other sabers obviously. I don't care how they work it out. Combine saber action with a PSI-Ops style physics system to chuck stuff at uglies and I'm sold.
Stitch
Member
maybe it will be something like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru5OzrJIpts
the could call it Star Wars - Lightsaber Training
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru5OzrJIpts
the could call it Star Wars - Lightsaber Training
DerClockWork
Banned
OMG ^^, you played Berserk for PS2 ? You know you can make Bodyparts which will look cool, you've ever played StarWars JediKnight ? They hade a nice effect when the lightsabre hits environment, these things could be made without a problem. You don't need much power for that.Xapati said:
Face it, you're an trolloholic
WarioWare had a cool effect, nobody played Gundam 0079 on Wii? They had neat sword fighting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Lmg17Yc5uk for ex. and a cool feature when you play multiplayer. When you and your opponent's melee-weapons hit another you're in a waggle-till-you-die mode, were the one who waggles harder and faster wins, basically it's 2 bar with to colorfilling
It was really funny because when you play after 1 round, you'll fall in your chair and sleep 
. You really need alot of muscles to play that longer :lol. Problem is there are barely any videos on youtube for that game. It was the only gundam game I really liked, thx to the WiiMote control scheme.So actually there could be cool ideas for light-sabre duells. For ex. just like in Gundam, if 2 light-sabres hit togehter in the opposite direction (horizontal vs. vertical and vice-versa) you enter a mode where you could perform precies gestures or just waggle and so on, which will then translate in an animation for example or whatever. Problem with Gundam was, that it happened to often and after sometime, you really ask yourself if just grabbing a piece of plastic and just hit the air with all your might and beating the crap out of it is everything you want for gameplay :lol
Ahh somebody already mentioned itGDGF said:
basically, you lock on enemies and just do a swing-down/left/right or up motion, which could be better, but actually you can slice up arms and so on. Actually it feels very good but you have to be to precise for vertical/horizontal motions, actually the game clearly doesn't had that big production costs.But again, they used gesture system. 1:1 could maybe with some restrections be done, you actually also have it in WiiBaseball if you forgot it. IMO a third-person with a mixture of gesture and 1:1 could be cool and not that hard to be done.
A StarWars : Jedi Knight like Thirdperson Lightsabre fighting should be no problem with a good mixture, they just need to make the gameplay allright.
E-phonk said:
#1 is a given, but they could work on #2 a bit.
If they are making a whole new lightsaber controller, they could have a much stronger vibration motor+battery, which could simulate variable resistance. IE cutting through a blast door is difficult and rumbly vs slicing through a body(hot knife through butter).
Maybe instead of the subwoofer bass that came with force powers in the movies, it could be rumble from the controller too.
Mr_Furious
Member
E-phonk said:
1. Not acceptible. Fans will want lightsaber duels. I think there's compromises that will need to be made but as long as it's fun and the most satisfying lightsaber controls yet, most should be happy. It sure as hell should be better than any of the FPS efforts prior. I think that a simple vibration and sound effect from the wiimote could suffice for "feedback".
2. If you want "realism" which is the reason why you mentioned not doing lightsaber duels then the density of the material being cut will need to be factored in here. If you are cutting into the thick hull of a ship it is not going to be the same as cutting through fabric. Like my comment above, compromises will surely need to be made.
Ultimately people shouldn't set their expectations so high on this idea or arbitrarily limit ideas/gameplay for the sake of realism.
Jamesfrom818
Banned
There's a simple fix for sword combat. If two swords strike each other while attacking, then the swords become locked together and it becomes a wagglefest to see who can push the other back. If one sword parries another sword, then the parried fighter goes into a short stun animation. I'm pretty sure this is generally how it works in Dynasty Warriors.
kame-sennin
Member
I think the whole collision issue is a much smaller issue than people are making it out to be. When it comes to colliding with objects and walls, previous games (like Jedi Knight) have handled it fine. The lightsaber just passes through the object with sparks accompanying the impact.
Even lightsaber to lightsaber collision isn't a big deal. The lightsabers just need to deflect off each other when they make contact in order to stay in sync with the remote. This is exactly what happens when swords clash and the swordsmen continue to follow through, the swords meet, but grind past each other along the same path. Obviously, locking would be impossible, but lightsaber contact would still work.
Even lightsaber to lightsaber collision isn't a big deal. The lightsabers just need to deflect off each other when they make contact in order to stay in sync with the remote. This is exactly what happens when swords clash and the swordsmen continue to follow through, the swords meet, but grind past each other along the same path. Obviously, locking would be impossible, but lightsaber contact would still work.
OokieSpookie
Banned
Isn't this a bit of a misleading thread title and a 'duh' topic?
We have known this for a while, but talk is cheap and promising the world doesn't make it happen.
I do not have the faith yet that they can do a game ground up with lightsaber combat in mind and still make it an all around good experience.
Lego was a good start though the game itself was already there and the combat was just frosting.
We have known this for a while, but talk is cheap and promising the world doesn't make it happen.
I do not have the faith yet that they can do a game ground up with lightsaber combat in mind and still make it an all around good experience.
Lego was a good start though the game itself was already there and the combat was just frosting.
Kuramu
Member
I have to explain this every time.
Your motions are fully represented in the game world, but you don't hold the lightsaber, you hold the intentional light saber. Normally they are the same. but when the game saber makes contact, the difference between them (game saber vs. intentional) is represented by an elastic vector force that seeks to bring the two back together.
So, you swing in real life, the game saber is blocked. The distance beyond that is registered as a force you are applying to the saber. When the obstruction is moved, the game saber re-joins the intentional saber.
Need a diagram?
Your motions are fully represented in the game world, but you don't hold the lightsaber, you hold the intentional light saber. Normally they are the same. but when the game saber makes contact, the difference between them (game saber vs. intentional) is represented by an elastic vector force that seeks to bring the two back together.
So, you swing in real life, the game saber is blocked. The distance beyond that is registered as a force you are applying to the saber. When the obstruction is moved, the game saber re-joins the intentional saber.
Need a diagram?
Jonnyboy117
Member
When your lightsaber hits another lightsaber, the rumble and sound effect kick in. At that point, your weapon is "locked" against the other, and all of your gestures will be ignored except one to pull the lightsaber away and break the connection.
Kuramu
Member
Haunted One said:
Actually, it's easy to imagine if you have ever used flash to make something trail your cursor. Imagine using a simple elastic force between your cursor and a ball that trails behind. Flash can't stop you from putting your cursor anywhere you want, but it can block the following ball. then have the ball push in the direction of the cursor with a force proportional to the distance between them. If the blocking objects have weight, you will be able to push them.
Omar Ismail
Banned
boutrosinit said:
I never put stock into what "purists" care for.
MasterMFauli
Banned
boutrosinit said:
Picardnotagain.gif
boutrosinit
Street Fighter IV World Champion
Omar Ismail said:
Good luck to you.
so why is everyone reacting to this like it's an official announcement? there's a quote from the lucasarts guy saying "just a taster" and people assume there's some uber-awesome full fledged jedi lightsaber wii-exclusive game. for all we know, there could be another lego star wars game coming or something. 
Why, why, why are people anticipating this? Has lucasarts EVER made a good action game? :|
As for controls, a Wii-sports style mix of 1:1 and gestural is the way to go. Slices really do have to be gestural (analogue gestures are fine, though). Maybe defense could be "teh on3-on3", with tilt determining the angle your sword is held at to block attacks.It would be reliable, at least. And I think the problem about lack of force feedback is the kind of poo-poo that sounds bad in your head, but doesn't actually matter in practice. Like how before Wii came out everybody worried about how scratching their butts would mess up their game. Nobody's gonna give a crap if their in-game lightsaber bounces off something but the wiimote doesn't.
edit: agree with keramu and kame-sennin.
And everybody should keep in mind that, considering the wiimote's technology, attacks really do have to be gesture-based.
As for controls, a Wii-sports style mix of 1:1 and gestural is the way to go. Slices really do have to be gestural (analogue gestures are fine, though). Maybe defense could be "teh on3-on3", with tilt determining the angle your sword is held at to block attacks.It would be reliable, at least. And I think the problem about lack of force feedback is the kind of poo-poo that sounds bad in your head, but doesn't actually matter in practice. Like how before Wii came out everybody worried about how scratching their butts would mess up their game. Nobody's gonna give a crap if their in-game lightsaber bounces off something but the wiimote doesn't.
edit: agree with keramu and kame-sennin.
And everybody should keep in mind that, considering the wiimote's technology, attacks really do have to be gesture-based.
Elfforkusu
Member
I really don't think the "sword collision dooms 1-to-1" problem is really as bad as a lot of you guys seem to. To some extent, it just shows a lack of imagination on your parts.
Yes, technically speaking it can't be "true" 1-to-1 100% of the time. But videogames have always been (and probably always will be) about faking things. You can suspend 1-to-1 for collisions, then slide back into it once the collision is over.
How you go about that "slide" is another story, as there are a number of options (and I'm not sure what the best one is), but it's not as though it's a huge problem that renders all thoughts of 1-to-1 control null and void. It just requires some creativity, which is admittedly something that's been lacking in most Wii efforts.
Yes, technically speaking it can't be "true" 1-to-1 100% of the time. But videogames have always been (and probably always will be) about faking things. You can suspend 1-to-1 for collisions, then slide back into it once the collision is over.
How you go about that "slide" is another story, as there are a number of options (and I'm not sure what the best one is), but it's not as though it's a huge problem that renders all thoughts of 1-to-1 control null and void. It just requires some creativity, which is admittedly something that's been lacking in most Wii efforts.
JoshuaJSlone
Member
I think I see what he's getting at, so here's a High Technology image I've created with a few scenarios. On the left is the remote's real world angle, on the right in the rectangle is the on-screen angle.Haunted One said:
Situation one: Remote tilted, lightsaber tilt pretty much matches it.
Situation two: Remote held straight, lightsaber pretty much matches it. But say that at this position you're up against another lightsaber and shouldn't be able to tilt toward it, leading to...
Situation three: You've tilted at what would be an impossible angle for the lightsaber to match. The red covers this "angle of impossibility", which the game could then interpret as variable extra force being applied to the saber..
boutrosinit said:
People often say that, but I disagree. An important part of using a sword in a duel is controlling your swing. You don't go all out on every attack, especially when you're most certain to be blocked. Anyone who does that won't have time to recover before their opponent counterattacks..., which hopefully will teach them to stop doing that sort of thing until there's an opening in their opponent's defense. It's not as if every attack has to be balls to the wall, cut their fucking head off.
Now, if it's warfare, then yeah, you swing as hard and as fast as you can. Aiming isn't really that important.
Mr_Furious
Member
Isn't blocking incoming attacks supposed to be rewarding for players? I know I'd get pissed off if every time I blocked I get knocked back/down. That's stupid.StranGER said:
I'm hoping developers so far just haven't had experience, knowledge, or time to implement the Wii Remote in a good 1:1 way, since there don't seem to be many games using it outside of Wii Sports. In all honesty though, it seems like it would be very difficult to do so without limiting the freedom of movement the player has. Hopefully they can prove me wrong though.
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