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Motomu Toriyama should really stop writing scenarios

MagnaderAlpha said:
It was kinda one of those classic FF scenes, now that I think about it. You don't get many of THOSE anymore. Basically a scene that kinda comes out of nowhere, but adds so much to the characters. Reminds me of the scene in FFVI when Locke hilariously stumbles out of the ship's interior to barf over the side of the rail, and asks Shadow to not tell anybody. Kinda random, but so cool to see things like these in the series.
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No, that's not true. The modern FFs are full of things like that.

Examples: Sazh has a thing against Cactuars. This is not something really part of the plot, it's just a random thing you see if you go hunting Cactuars and he's in your party, and he goes all "Oh, I am so going to get that little goober" and makes an ass of himself trying to singlehandedly chase it.

There's plenty more than that.
 
I have one very important question, is the gem "Mum's are tough" his doing ?

What about noel trying to find snow
because he thinks he's killed his mother but she actually just fell down miserably and we've all seen it
?
 
Xpliskin said:
I have one very important question, is the gem "Mum's are tough" his doing ?

What about noel trying to find snow
because he thinks he's killed his mother but she actually just fell down miserably and we've all seen it
?
Click to expand...

You mean Hope? Also, do we have to spoiler something that happened in the introductory segment?

"Moms are tough" is kind of a localization thing. I believe the Japanese script referred to a well-known Japanese proverb that goes, "Women are weak, but mothers are strong." So when Snow asks Hope's mom if she's sure she wants to join the armed resistance, she feeds him the last part of that proverb in order to say that as a mother protecting her child, she'll rise to the occasion. Obviously we missed out on the allusion in the localized version and it just sounded goofy.

People rag on that sequence but it's not anywhere near the real problem with FFXIII.

RSLAEV said:
Don't forget that FF14 has managed to avoid all the bad that has infected the 13 "saga" so if 15 turns out OK it might be safe to say that we're gradually moving beyond this dark point in FF history.
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Well, not all of it. That ropey realdoll Lightning is running loose in FFXIV as we speak, actually.
 
I honestly hope, that XV will be how a story is done well. Such high hopes. D:

saher said:
There is so much toriyama hate since XIII , I am wondering if it reached SE.

Toriyama,please leave ...go write animu or something.
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He is writing anime. Did you see the ending of Lightning Returns?
 
Perfo said:
The 3rd Birthday is Tabata's game. And like for Type-0 it's full of weird stuff (like the pissing scene). Toriyama doesn't have anything to do with that. And infact his games are usually devoid of these stuff.
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Not his game but... http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=460751

Nojima: What I remember is the Honey Bee Inn. Toriyama (Motomu Toriyama, the director of FFX-2) was in charge of the Honey Bee Inn’s events, but at first what took place there was more extreme, and everyone was saying “That’s going too far.”
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Toriyama is basically the creeper of Square Enix. He should go to where he should actually belong: Compile Heart.
 
Hey just thought I'd pop in to say that if anybody here really thinks The Third Birthday's story is good at all they're really, really, really wrong.

That game's storyline is awful and I mean AWFUL. It's existence is the only thing keeping FF13-2's ending from being the worst Square ending I've ever seen.
 
MilkBeard said:
Naw, it's good to have one guy that's a little crazy, to make things a bit more interesting. The problem is that he has too much power over Final Fantasy nowadays.
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Replace him with Yoko Taro then. Now there's a kind of crazy that'd be fun to see in FF.
 
Looks like this thread inspired that complete hugbox of a FFXIII defense article over at USGamer. Or it's just because Lightning Returns is on deck. Whatever the case, it's a silly article.
 
I don't follow it very closely, but from everything I've read he started working on Final Fantasy when I started hating it. I always feel it's a little dumb to pin the blame all on one man, but he obviously has had a large part in ruining one of my favorite franchises.
 
May16 said:
Parish did the review, but yeah, like Pyrrhus said, Davidson. Still, your point remains, it seems like Parish is extremely easy to please lately. Everything is awesome and great.
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I don't know if you read the site or not, but Parish is not that easy to please. He was part of some of the most scathing PS4 launch reviews. He seems to always favor games that let him experiment and offer him more freedom. So it's not surprising to me at all that he likes Lightning Returns.

He also tends to like retro stuff more, like SMT, and Etrian Odyssey. So I'm not surprised he likes Bravely Default.
 
Parish isn't easy to please. Go read his Mario and Luigi review or his LTBW review for some harsh critiques. The guy likes video games that give you freedom. He also likes games that experiment with mechanics which is why he's so high on FFVIII and FFXII.

Him digging LR is no surprise since it sounds like a game that lets you roam and experiment with a deep combat system.
 
Ninjimbo said:
Parish isn't easy to please. Go read his Mario and Luigi review or his LTBW review for some harsh critiques. The guy likes video games that give you freedom. He also likes games that experiment with mechanics which is why he's so high on FFVIII and FFXII.

Him digging LR is no surprise since it sounds like a game that lets you roam and experiment with a deep combat system.
Click to expand...
Shinta said:
He was part of some of the most scathing PS4 launch reviews. He seems to always favor games that let him experiment and offer him more freedom. So it's not surprising to me at all that he likes Lightning Returns.

He also tends to like retro stuff more, like SMT, and Etrian Odyssey. So I'm not surprised he likes Bravely Default.
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Funny, I too enjoy games that give me freedom.
Funny, I too enjoy games that experiment with mechanics.
Funny, I too am high on FF8 and FF12.
Funny, I too enjoy retro stuff like SMT and Etrian Odyssey.
Funny, I too like (love!) Bravely Default.
Sorry, it just seems like the way you worded that, that I (or other people) didn't fall under those same descriptions.
In fact, a lot of games Parish praises the highest, I too love and respect.

But it seems that all I read lately is him talking about how (insert game) is awesome and rad. Just how it looked from here. I do appreciate making me aware of the scathing PS4 launch reviews -- opinions which I would have shared -- that I hadn't seen.

Me as a reader, things tend to go like this...
I like a game or game is widely liked -> I read USGamer article (or before that, IGN and 1UP) -> it's Parish -> Parish also likes it.
I dislike game or game is widely disliked -> I read USGamer article -> it's Parish -> Parish likes it.
So all I have seen is him liking things. I have no idea what irks the man. What he dislikes. I didn't read the two known instances of the opposite happening, so I guess I missed them.

From my end, it feels I find lavish praise far, far more often than not. Seeing as others had made the same observation, I don't think either of us can say I was too awfully mistaken. Just the same, thanks for shedding some light on things I might not have noticed.
 
May16 said:
But it seems that all I read lately is him talking about how (insert game) is awesome and rad. Just how it looked from here. I do appreciate making me aware of the scathing PS4 launch reviews -- opinions which I would have shared -- that I hadn't seen.

Me as a reader, things tend to go like this...
I like a game or game is widely liked -> I read USGamer article (or before that, IGN and 1UP) -> it's Parish -> Parish also likes it.
I dislike game or game is widely disliked -> I read USGamer article -> it's Parish -> Parish likes it.
So all I have seen is him liking things. I have no idea what irks the man. What he dislikes. I didn't read the two known instances of the opposite happening, so I guess I missed them.

From my end, it feels I find lavish praise far, far more often than not. Seeing as others had made the same observation, I don't think either of us can say I was too awfully mistaken. Just the same, thanks for shedding some light on things I might not have noticed.
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If you want some light shed on what he hates, look up what he wrote regarding Bioshock Infinite and Tomb Raider last year. Hate might be too strong a word, but he does break those games down and cites how problematic their narratives and mechanics are. They're excellent write ups.
 
Ninjimbo said:
If you want some light shed on what he hates, look up what he wrote regarding Bioshock Infinite and Tomb Raider last year. Hate might be too strong a word, but he does break those games down and cites how problematic their narratives and mechanics are. They're excellent write ups.
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Thanks. I should add that he's a very intelligent, well-spoken writer and I've felt like this for years. (Why...why do I follow game journalists as if they were pro athletes like this...? I just realized how stalkerish I sound.)

I thumbed through a few recent bits and found -- at recommendation in the thread -- his Mario & Luigi Dream Team review in which he says:
"my feelings toward the latest entry in the series, Mario & Luigi: Dream Team, border on sincere hatred."
But it got a 3/5. A 3/5 doesn't seem like it's on the border of sincere hatred.
Perhaps my subconscious associates Perish with unconditional praise because even harsh words lead to satisfactory marks? (And this is coming from a guy who values words waaay more than numbers at the end. But in Perish's case, numbers at the end are part of his business so...) But yeah. This kind of thing is where my thinking comes from. Do we know of any Japanese RPGs that he's outright disliked? And I mean, disliked in both word and score instead of just saying he hates it and then giving it a 3/5?
 
ULTROS! said:
Not his game but...
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But... but... but... Another crumbling "argument", another excuse.

I get it. It would be really awesomely convenient if there was a bad guy, if everything that's gone wrong with the series can be attributed to a sole person we can point the finger at. But jumping from accusation to accusation, from bad writing, to bad directing, to obsessing with his "waifu", to being perverted and trying to somehow tie it all together as if it were all part of a devious plot, seems a little... well sad. You're making things up and you ended up believing them. Nojima's FNC ideas are smocking ace because... well it fits some random rationalization where everything bad HAS to be attributed to a guy called Toriyama and the guy can't direct or write or supervise or interpret or execute or whatever the heck we concluded that he does because some linear notes say he's perverted and because... Lightning. I don't give a flying fuck about Toriyama and I'm not saying the series is above criticism but the truth is Toriyama is as much to blame for your dislike of latter FF games as is Kitase, as is Daisuke

ULTROS should really stop writing scenarios where Toriyama is the villain.
 
DigitalDevilSummoner said:
But... but... but... Another crumbling "argument", another excuse.

I get it. It would be really awesomely convenient if there was a bad guy, if everything that's gone wrong with the series can be attributed to a sole person we can point the finger at. But jumping from accusation to accusation, from bad writing, to bad directing, to obsessing with his "waifu", to being perverted and trying to somehow tie it all together as if it were all part of a devious plot, seems a little... well sad. You're making things up and you ended up believing them. Nojima's FNC ideas are smocking ace because... well it fits some random rationalization where everything bad HAS to be attributed to a guy called Toriyama and the guy can't direct or write or supervise or interpret or execute or whatever the heck we concluded that he does because some linear notes say he's perverted and because... Lightning. I don't give a flying fuck about Toriyama and I'm not saying the series is above criticism but the truth is Toriyama is as much to blame for your dislike of latter FF games as is Kitase, as is Daisuke

ULTROS should really stop writing scenarios where Toriyama is the villain.
Click to expand...

It wasn't really an argument, just a fact to point out how creepy Toriyama can be, even admitted by the his co-worker in Square Enix.

Credits where credits due, Toriyama did a fine job in FFVII and FFX, but one should know that he was a mere planner in FFVII and his major contribution lies in FFX. Outside of that, when he's given the main directing/scenario designing role, he fucked it up, hard. It's one thing to screw up the game's story in one or two titles, but when you did it consistently across multiple franchises and titles, people would be fed up. That's no point defending it.

Granted, he is not the ONLY one who's at fault. Kitase deserves criticisms because in XIII, he is the main producer and inevitably help to direct the game along with Toriyama and caused this mess that is FFXIII, and extrapolated into a trilogy with mediocre plot, terrible story-telling, characters, lack of cohesive vision and inconsistent/flawed gameplay ideas. Watanabe too, but when you are fed with nonsensical story outline and direction, there's really not much you could do to make things a lot better. He's still not a good writer though.

Everyone can be a hit and miss. It's whether if you could buck up and redeem yourself in a new title, or to continue being a bunch of weak/mediocre developer/writer and be disgusted by the fanbase. LR shows that Toriyama and Watanabe never learn at all, story-wise.
 
Ninjimbo said:
Parish isn't easy to please. Go read his Mario and Luigi review or his LTBW review for some harsh critiques. The guy likes video games that give you freedom. He also likes games that experiment with mechanics which is why he's so high on FFVIII and FFXII.

Him digging LR is no surprise since it sounds like a game that lets you roam and experiment with a deep combat system.
Click to expand...
I think ultimately he just takes each FF for what it is, and really, with how dynamic the series is that probably IS the best approach. I remember how I got worked up over how VII and VIII were shams compared to the 16-bit titles, but that was teenage idiocy and budding nostalgia, and now I think I'm more level headed about the series. Not that I like XIII's direction, but fortunately that seems to be a type of design SE's backing away from, though to what effectiveness is up for debate.
 
Eusis said:
I think ultimately he just takes each FF for what it is, and really, with how dynamic the series is that probably IS the best approach. I remember how I got worked up over how VII and VIII were shams compared to the 16-bit titles, but that was teenage idiocy and budding nostalgia, and now I think I'm more level headed about the series. Not that I like XIII's direction, but fortunately that seems to be a type of design SE's backing away from, though to what effectiveness is up for debate.
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I think this is a really important point and it's a shame that lots of people don't have the maturity to accept that different things are different. Every FF game should be a new experiment; it's what makes the series so strong.
 
He has written some real stinkers. I do hope they stop letting him write the stories but I have a feeling he will still get the opportunity.
 
ULTROS! said:
Seriously, this guys needs to stop. Let's take a look at his works:

Final Fantasy X-2 - It killed the good story of FFX
Click to expand...


Stopped reading right there.

Final Fantasy X-2 was an all around better game than X. Story didn't matter because it was garbage in both games.
 
manipulate said:
I think this is a really important point and it's a shame that lots of people don't have the maturity to accept that different things are different. Every FF game should be a new experiment; it's what makes the series so strong.
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Yeah, it's literally the core principle behind the entire series.

No one has even the faintest clue what XVI will be like. No one even knows if it will be action, turn based, or an MMO. This is what makes it so exciting in my opinion. I like some entries better than others, but each one is a new thing. That's how I want it to stay.
 
Syril said:
It's been out in Japan for months.
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Yep, and if you're an importer, you should have some politeness and decency to not spoil it (i.e. through references or snide comments) when most people waited for the English release a day ago.


DigitalDevilSummoner said:
But... but... but... Another crumbling "argument", another excuse.

I get it. It would be really awesomely convenient if there was a bad guy, if everything that's gone wrong with the series can be attributed to a sole person we can point the finger at. But jumping from accusation to accusation, from bad writing, to bad directing, to obsessing with his "waifu", to being perverted and trying to somehow tie it all together as if it were all part of a devious plot, seems a little... well sad. You're making things up and you ended up believing them. Nojima's FNC ideas are smocking ace because... well it fits some random rationalization where everything bad HAS to be attributed to a guy called Toriyama and the guy can't direct or write or supervise or interpret or execute or whatever the heck we concluded that he does because some linear notes say he's perverted and because... Lightning. I don't give a flying fuck about Toriyama and I'm not saying the series is above criticism but the truth is Toriyama is as much to blame for your dislike of latter FF games as is Kitase, as is Daisuke

ULTROS should really stop writing scenarios where Toriyama is the villain.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I dunno ULTROS. Nothing personal but you really got a lot of the facts wrong in this condemnation of Toriyama.

I fully believe the man's got some awful tastes, especially the dressup aspects and his bloated directing style, but you have to be fair and give the right credit and blame where they are deserved. Otherwise, again, it's no different than the people screaming NOMURA RUINED EVERY FF! and such.
 
This thread made me read the Wikipedia page for The 3rd Birthday. Well, try to read it.

I can understand that they didn't want to or weren't willing to get the Parasite Eve license back. But what is with the
time traveling
and
soul being destroyed or turned into plant monsters
shenanigans? Did they just throw the biological theme out the window?
 
Dark_castle said:
It wasn't really an argument, just a fact to point out how creepy Toriyama can be, even admitted by the his co-worker in Square Enix.

Credits where credits due, Toriyama did a fine job in FFVII and FFX, but one should know that he was a mere planner in FFVII and his major contribution lies in FFX. Outside of that, when he's given the main directing/scenario designing role, he fucked it up, hard. It's one thing to screw up the game's story in one or two titles, but when you did it consistently across multiple franchises and titles, people would be fed up. That's no point defending it.

Granted, he is not the ONLY one who's at fault. Kitase deserves criticisms because in XIII, he is the main producer and inevitably help to direct the game along with Toriyama and caused this mess that is FFXIII, and extrapolated into a trilogy with mediocre plot, terrible story-telling, characters, lack of cohesive vision and inconsistent/flawed gameplay ideas. Watanabe too, but when you are fed with nonsensical story outline and direction, there's really not much you could do to make things a lot better. He's still not a good writer though.

Everyone can be a hit and miss. It's whether if you could buck up and redeem yourself in a new title, or to continue being a bunch of weak/mediocre developer/writer and be disgusted by the fanbase. LR shows that Toriyama and Watanabe never learn at all, story-wise.
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Wait a sec. I think we are forgetting that directors don't green light games. Management does. Trying to squeeze out spin-off sequels or whatever the hell X-2 & XIII-2 are supposed to be, out of complete stand-alone games is really fucking retarded in the first place. Take it up with the CEO. If anything I can comment the trio Toriyama, Daisuke and Kitase for designing the original XIII (and X by extension) as stand alone games with proper endings. As you said credit were credit is due.

tiggerkiddo said:
He has written some real stinkers. I do hope they stop letting him write the stories but I have a feeling he will still get the opportunity.
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Jeezus, Ultros did some real damage: I don't care who you accuse, Toriyama is not a writer ! For the most part he is a director. The OP is full of inaccurate nonsense. 3rd Birthday ? Come on.
 
DigitalDevilSummoner said:
Jeezus, Ultros did some real damage: I don't care who you accuse, Toriyama is not a writer ! For the most part he is a director. The OP is full of inaccurate nonsense. 3rd Birthday ? Come on.
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People should be saying "scenario designer" instead of writer when referring to Toriyama, but all the points remain the same. It doesn't matter who writes each individual line of dialogue; the scenario designer is the person who decides the story and events. If you could ressurect William Shakespeare himself and order him to be the scriptwriter of a Toriyama game, the game would still be non-sensical s***.

Here's what Toriyama did for 3rd Birthday:

Wikipedia said:
Scenario director Motomu Toriyama conceived story concepts such as the snowy New York setting and the image of a bloodstained wedding dress. Over the course of the development, he adjusted the plot numerous times to be more adult-oriented and to include narrative twists.[10] The scenario for the game was written by anime scriptwriter Toshimitsu Takeuchi
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"adult-oriented" *rolleyes*
 
DiipuSurotu said:
People should be saying "scenario designer" instead of writer when referring to Toriyama, but all the points remain the same. It doesn't matter who writes each individual line of dialogue; the scenario designer is the person who decides the story and events. If you could ressurect William Shakespeare himself and order him to be the scriptwriter of a Toriyama game, the game would still be non-sensical s***.
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Oh I thought the scriptwriter was to blame for the interpretation of the story and events. [1] Now it's the scenario designer who just conveniently happens to do that. I'm sure we can squeeze Nojima in there again.

jaxword said:
I fully believe the man's got some awful tastes, especially the dressup aspects and his bloated directing style
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Yeah those are two different things though. I don't understand how you can arbitrarily use one to back up the other.

Suddenly his "perverted" nature affects scenarios he didn't write or scenarios he designed or scenarios he spilled coffee all over. I love it how "pervertedness" turned out to be a one-fits-all argument.
 
Considering the amount of hate he gets from passionate SE fans, I expected a lot more people to contend DigitalDevilSummoner's arguments and shut them down. I feel everyone who's on this bandwagon deserves to know the exact extent of his involvement, influence, and just how much responsibility he has.

ULTROS? Kagari? Any other fact checker?

Come on guys, you're driving this bus. The least you could do is verify this information.
 
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