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[Tyraniboah]

Separate mouse users. That's the solution. I know some people have legitimate issues with using a controller, but I don't see why we can't have KB+M lobbies apart from controllers on console. It's gets annoying dealing with these people that think they are better than they really are, so until Microsoft and Sony will deal with them I don't blame anybody for quitting console multiplayer.

 

[Kalentan]

It's a shit show at the moment.

By not supporting it natively, they're giving people who want to pay extra for a third party device incentive to do so because not only can they aim more accurately, but they also take advantage of auto-aim.

If they add native support, they could then have the console/game know to disable auto-aim.

At that point though, it will certainly fragment the audience. Kind of a hard catch tbh.

Just disabling auto-aim won't suddenly put things evenly.

If they ever do support it in a wholly official capacity (i.e. the games themselves actually support it), then they will need different Matchmaking for it. Fuck, if I'll play against people who want an advantage over others.

I don't care if they have a small player base, it's their choice to have an advantage.

 

[Head.spawn]

There are quite a few on the net.

Easily the best two.

Openwrt SQM Guide.
Bufferbloat SQM Guide.

Easiest way I can say know the interfaces label on your router before you begin. Always use 90-95% for download, you want your bufferbloat to work. Packet priority with the diffserv model is natural.

[IMG]http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx175/NuttyHater/Bufferbloat0002_zpsrvdbqvhr.jpg[/IMG]

Alex that is no debloated and offload using router config. See how offloading malforms my packet size from a more proper mtu by almost a factor 8x-10x. This causes your router to converter them which means it spending time to do that. Your network packets can literally run in microsecond when they firing by you do not want bloat, overhead or malshaping to be making your packets not going off when they should. That's a real advantage in a games where all your time counts speed or a lack of bloat/lag is huge.

Using no QOS vs even that is just dumb as plenty of bufferbloat have shown your router is holding up to a few seconds of data vs half a minute and worse it has a first in first out buffer.

It's a shame I feel like I'm too dumb to do any of this without messing something up. I have an Asus RT-AC68U and that router app is just so damned convenient.

Just disabling auto-aim won't suddenly put things evenly.

If they ever do support it in a wholly official capacity (i.e. the games themselves actually support it), then they will need different Matchmaking for it. Fuck, if I'll play against people who want an advantage over others.

I don't care if they have a small player base, it's their choice to have an advantage.

I didn't mean to imply that it would make it evenly, my main point there was that the way it currently is kb/m users get better aim precision AND can pull off shots they might have normally missed on PC thanks to auto-aim. Maybe less fucked up without both? I dunno tbh.

 

[Poodle Cannon]

I'm biased, as I used a xim when I was playing console. It does provide better aiming for shooters, mouse is more precise.

However, it is nothing like PC, it comes somewhat close in games like battlefield and COD and games with smooth look mechanics and high turn speeds, but other games that don't have solid look mechanics and turn speeds end up being frustrating. It's still adaptable and advantageous to someone who prefers to use a mouse over a controller with games that aren't as naturally smooth.

It does take getting used to, fighting aim assist and learning to confine your mouse movement within the bounds of what is possible on console.
I've seen some posts that said it makes shit tier players godly on console, which is an absolutely silly thing to say. It does provide an advantage, but it won't make you godly, unless, well, you're godly.
There are many advantages one can have against online players on console, and this is one of them. Playing on a monitor alone is a massive advantage whether you use a controller or mouse.

Anyway, MS featured the xim3 a few years back or so I believe, in the official xbox magazine, and PS4 has a product they endorse for mouse and keyboard.

If you want to complain, you'd have to go to the developers of the game, but at least for the xim, from what I understand it's nearly impossible to detect natively as it only sends the controller signal to the console. They'd have to go by video evidence alone which I imagine would require too many resources.

 

[LCGeek]

It's a shame I feel like I'm too dumb to do any of this without messing something up. I have an Asus RT-AC68U and that router app is just so damned convenient.

That's a snazzy router bro.

As for your comment you can easily screw up router considering it's basically replacing the OS/Firmware. You shouldn't use wireless as when something goes wrong it will be even more fubared than wired. They call it bricking.

Most firmware gives you packages and there are similar apps to what the main gives and more, another reason custom firmware rocks. You can also log in via a command shell so you still control it quite effectively as more so as the screenshot shows.

Installing is mega easy you just go to firmware page in your router section and hit upload. The problem is bad upload or worse a corrupted improper file going fubar. The better routers have options to deal with this. My new linksys dual core has a dual partition setup which is insanely helping for when you brick. I'm almost thinking of setting up shop on altering routers for gamers similar to my monitor hacks or removing anti glare coats from flat panels for people. There's almost no one doing it and the risk vs just paying someone like me is starting add up with gamers getting interested.

Though for the record most of this talk should move to PM until I get my own bufferbloat guide topic up which won't be until next month based on time I have.

 

[Dynomutt]

So would you guys consider this unfair? I though gaming was about a little choice?

 

[Disgraced]

With more cross-play on the horizon I think it'd be best for M/KB to be properly supported on consoles.

 

[Candescence]

Simple answer: Enable K&M support on an OS level, and replace the right stick with a Steam Controller-esque trackpad. Dual sticks are obsolete now that Valve made a superior alternative, even if it's not quite as good as a mouse, is still considerably more versatile, quicker and more precise than an analog stick. Oh, and allow for adjusting aim via gyro.

Seriously, this issue wouldn't be nearly as big a deal if hardware makers had actually replaced the right stick with something more suited for aiming by now.

 

[rulerk1]

So would you guys consider this unfair? I though gaming was about a little choice?

unfair for the person using it because how would you even hold that? lol K+Mouse have advantage over controllers with accuracy so yes. Maybe not so if it is supported more widely

 

[Candescence]

unfair for the person using it because how would you even hold that?

Well, the same way Switch users using split joy-cons, really (controller in one hand and mouse in the other is actually not an unheard of style for getting the benefits of analog movement and mouse aiming together). And even then, that device comes with a strap so holding it isn't an issue.

 

[ponpo]

So would you guys consider this unfair? I though gaming was about a little choice?

I don't think every single non-standard peripheral is unfair, but if they are going to keep licensing and supporting these whacky things, just release and support a normal keyboard and mouse for every game.

 

[Conkerkid11]

Err... As others have said, this has been around for awhile. It's just emulating controller inputs. There's not really any way to stop it, and so few people are using it that it doesn't justify suddenly allowing for official support of mouse and keyboard or crossplay.

 

[Candescence]

Err... As others have said, this has been around for awhile. It's just emulating controller inputs. There's not really any way to stop it, and so few people are using it that it doesn't justify suddenly allowing for official support of mouse and keyboard or crossplay.

Also, you're really only getting a precision benefit. The auto-aim can actually mess you up a little unless you learn to compensate, and trying to turn quickly with a mouse is maddening since you're limited to the maximum speed of the analog stick camera.

 

[LAM09]

Shouldn't be a thing on consoles to begin with.

 

[LCGeek]

Err... As others have said, this has been around for awhile. It's just emulating controller inputs. There's not really any way to stop it, and so few people are using it that it doesn't justify suddenly allowing for official support of mouse and keyboard or crossplay.

It's not a few people. When I started doing the same on xbox that was a few people. Now there are enough people around it's causing clear disruptions and a lack of trust. That's not really a good thing for console devs who are keen and know keeping consumers happy on this issue is not ot be messed with. If fps consumers start to think it's uneven playing field the exodus on the titles will be akin to Quake 3 DC if not worse considering it didn't have a big size say anything like Halo, BF, and COD.

Shouldn't be a thing on consoles to start with.

Did you not listen to other users saying it emulates a controller, so there's no way to deal with unless sony and ms want to start using proprietary tech which neither have for sometime considering it wasn't worth it vs what we have now.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

*hot take alert*

If matchmaking is organized based on performance, I don't see an issue with having kb&m users in the same pool of players as everyone else. The people will quickly become sorted into games with a combination of other players using KB&M at a similar skill level, and people using controllers who are slightly more skilled but whom perform overall at a similar level.

High level tournament play might end up being segregated by controller type or otherwise comprised of people who are both extremely skilled and also using kb&m, but that's not a 'problem' that needs to be solved.

 

[CannonFodder52]

Weirdest thing for me, console shooters are specifically designed for gamepad aiming. Halo has slow floaty movement to compensate for controllers. I'm convinced that Gears and other cover shooters are making use of the tools at hand. Being able to play these games with the aiming of a quake or cs player seems ridiculous.

The fighting game stick and driving game wheel comparison is bad.

Regarding the comments that the XIM thing is locked at the sensitivity of the controller. Depending on the game, a large portion of high skill pc players use very low sensitivity.

 

[Wedzi]

This kind of feels like turbo controllers all over again

I vote for a controller queue and a mouse and keyboard option. You plug in a controller (on PC) it puts you with controller people. You plug in a mouse and keyboard (on console) and it puts you with mouse of keyboard people. Might be harder than I'm making it out to be (really everything is though) but I think this is the only real reasonable way these kind of things can coexist unless you just want to give controller people a harder time.

*hot take alert*

If matchmaking is organized based on performance, I don't see an issue with having kb&m users in the same pool of players as everyone else. The people will quickly become sorted into games with a combination of other players using KB&M at a similar skill level, and people using controllers who are slightly more skilled but whom perform overall at a similar level.

High level tournament play might end up being segregated by controller type or otherwise comprised of people who are both extremely skilled and also using kb&m, but that's not a 'problem' that needs to be solved.

This is another good option if the behind the scenes matchmaking/ranking is up to snuff. The only real issue is competitive console players who really want to climb the ladder are going to feel like they have to buy a mouse and keyboard (and probably adjust their console setup) to keep up with the joneses. Don't really know how many people that is but I don't think a console player should have to worry about that to begin with.

 

[CO_Andy]

Shame the PS4 and XBO shooters don't support gyro aiming. The gap between gyro and mouse is much smaller.

 

[Glass Shark]

I don't think it's that big a deal, honestly. KB+M might provide an advantage, but I don't feel like it's big enough to warrant regulations in anything other than professional competitive play. Should Elite controller users be put in a separate queue? That device offers an objective mechanical benefit over a regular controller.

 

[breadtruck]

I used to think it doesnt matter.

After playing blatant M&K users playing Widowmaker on Overwatch, I'm against it on consoles.

 

[LCGeek]

I don't think it's that big a deal, honestly. KB+M might provide an advantage, but I don't feel like it's big enough to warrant regulations in anything other than professional competitive play. Should Elite controller users be put in a separate queue? That device offers an objective mechanical benefit over a regular controller.

Cause someone like breadtruck shouldn't have to face someone like me unless he wants to.

I say this as a known user of it and there are plenty of videos you can view on youtube it's unfair to players who are not intending to be high comp or try hard. High comp players can hang cause in most fps games of real value the advantage of xim isn't what native offers. Also because those players work their asses off to do insane shit as KB+M players to do high end movement or aiming techniques.

Devs and consumers have bitched including people on my side its for the big 3 to do their part, but I forgot these days they are complacent to pump out games and not deal with real QOL issues consoles still have.

 

[jdmonmou]

I don't think it's that big a deal, honestly. KB+M might provide an advantage, but I don't feel like it's big enough to warrant regulations in anything other than professional competitive play. Should Elite controller users be put in a separate queue? That device offers an objective mechanical benefit over a regular controller.

Exactly. You still need skill even though you are on mouse and keys. Some people play better with a gamepad rather than KB+M because that's what they're use to. No big deal here.

 

[Lucky Seven]

It doesn't even feel 100% like a mouse. Various problems arise from game to game. For $120 you get manageable control for games, place this in the hands of a tryhard and you get a dick sniping everybody. You can't just take the control away from them, and separating third party controller users from their friends in online matches isn't great either. It's an issue with no good answer.

 

[LukasTaves]

Support it at the OS level, but provide separate queues. controller and anything goes

This. Would even work for cross play. Instead of segregating by platform do it for input as well (and be very bannable to people who use adapters to trick input)

 

[Mohasus]

They should also ban racing wheels and fighting sticks while at it.

 

[zenspider]

I guess I'm torn?

After playing with and against XIM players in Overwatch, I feel it is a significant enough advantage to be unfair.

People who are saying it isn't - it's player skill and map knowledge, etc. are ignoring the fact that the game is played differently on console and PC because of the aim. When you have a hitscan who delete teams from a range, position, or angle you're not accustomed to or snap-shotting what would be a strong approach on any other match - you're not playing the same game.

On the other hand, I do use a Hitbox for fighting games. There are some things I can do with it I can't with a pad or stick, but they're not things that can't be done without it. I don't feel an advantage over anyone who's comfortable with whatever wired controller they're using, only that my hands can do what my mind wants them to do and I win and lose by my skill.

Is that how XIM users feel?
If you got your ass kicked in a fighter and found out your opponenet was using a stick or hitbox, would you feel cheated?

 

[Paragon]

There's no debate that mouse aiming has the potential to be better than using an analog stick.
However there are regularly posts on PC-specific forums/sites from people that are new to PC and really struggle using a mouse. Some end up sticking with a controller because they just can't get used to it.
Simply connecting up a mouse does not automatically make you good with it, or automatically give you an advantage over someone playing with a controller. What it does is raise the skill ceiling.

I don't support segregation at all. Let matchmaking sort it out.
What is the point of supporting mice if you're locked out from playing with other people?
Disable aim assists when using a mouse, but make them available for controller players.

Nothing I like more than finding a desk to plop in front of my giant TV just so I can play a shooter with an input method I don't prefer for shooters. And ya know, that you'd have to pay even extra for.

Console gamers - and developers - need to embrace gyro aiming.
With the Steam Controller and even the DualShock 4, it makes a huge difference to aiming with a controller.
It's not as good as a mouse, but is significantly better than an analog stick.
Very few games on PS4 seem to have the option to use the gyro for aiming, and I don't understand that at all.

So it's kb+m with autoaim? Damn son

That's generally a bad thing.
Aim assist on console games does things like slow down your movements when you pass over a target, and similar things that interfere with your aiming.
It works with an analog stick, but that sort of thing is horrible when you're aiming with a mouse.

Why not just play on PC? This screams shitty players stroking their egos using a way unfair advantage. Even worse than smurfing in beginner ranks.

Friends that only play on console and will never switch to PC.
The lack of cross-platform play in the majority of games sucks. It's not even a console/PC thing, but also across the various console platforms too.

Regarding the comments that the XIM thing is locked at the sensitivity of the controller. Depending on the game, a large portion of high skill pc players use very low sensitivity.

I've never used a XIM, but if it's anything like trying to use the "mouse-like-joystick" option on the Steam Controller, or games where the developer screwed up the mouse input in the PC port, the problem is not that you have limited sensitivity, but that it is rate-limited.
With a low sensitivity mouse, you can still move it as fast as you like and it will travel the same distance.
With a rate-limited input, you hit a wall where your view suddenly stops moving any quicker and doesn't track with your mouse's position any more. That sort of thing really messes with your aim.

 

[David___]

They should also ban racing wheels and fighting sticks while at it.

I still don't understand this line of thinking.

Mouse aiming is objectively better than the thumbsticks on controllers. Overwatch is literally balanced differently on consoles and PCs because of the fact PCs have mouse aiming.

Fight pads and wheels aren't objectively better than using a controller, they just offer an alternative way to play a game

 

[hurzelein]

God damn. My excitement for PUBG on Xbox went from 100 to 0. That will be so ridculous to play with a controller in a couch setup vs. someone with mouse and keyboard, "controller sensitivity" at max, and 30cm from their pc screen which lets you see players in the distance so much better.

Meh. I love to play woth a controller. This could potentially ruin many Multiplayer titles for me going forward. Will probably get more common.

 

[Gold_Loot]

I still don't understand this line of thinking.

Mouse aiming is objectively better than the thumbsticks on controllers. Overwatch is literally balanced differently on consoles and PCs because of the fact PCs have mouse aiming.

Fight pads and wheels aren't objectively better than using a controller, they just offer an alternative way to play a game

Hmm I'm not sure I can agree with that. Wheels are a pretty large advantage in racing sims. Flight sticks are pretty damned nice too ( not sure how much advantage they offer although it's great to have for Elete Dangerous)

 

[Aztechnology]

*hot take alert*

If matchmaking is organized based on performance, I don't see an issue with having kb&m users in the same pool of players as everyone else. The people will quickly become sorted into games with a combination of other players using KB&M at a similar skill level, and people using controllers who are slightly more skilled but whom perform overall at a similar level.

High level tournament play might end up being segregated by controller type or otherwise comprised of people who are both extremely skilled and also using kb&m, but that's not a 'problem' that needs to be solved.

Those are my feelings as well.

 

[Interficium]

You're never going to see the percentage of players on console using mouse and keyboard rise high enough for developers to implement deterrents.

 

[molnizzle]

Scumbag XIM users in this thread are making my blood boil.

Shit should be bannable. Worthless fucks.

 

[Trace]

Scumbag XIM users in this thread are making my blood boil.

Shit should be bannable. Worthless fucks.

Wew. That's quite the take on it. Whats your take on stick vs pad in fighting games?

 

[FyreWulff]

I'd prefer it be supported at OS level because then the developer can actually account for a mouse being used, instead of a mouse presenting itself as a controller. You could actually balance the input device more and give it a much better feel, and consider it for queues and such.


In total honesty though, I believe KBAM v controller isn't a a real concern in games overall. My proof would be PC, which is KBAM vs mouse in every single game and nobody cares. If you have a proper skillmatch solution and KBAM is truly better than pad, then the skillmatch will keep them mostly separate in the matchmaking pool anyway. And if someone is really good with pad, or really bad with mouse, they wouldn't notice or care what other players are using anyway.

 

[molnizzle]

Wew. That's quite the take on it. Whats your take on stick vs pad in fighting games?

Most fighting games are designed with stick in mind and sticks are officially supported products.

XIM users are using additional hardware to spoof the console into thinking it's receiving controller inputs.

Play on PC if you want to use a mouse. If you use hacky 3rd party devices to gain an advantage on console, you're a scumbag. It's cheating.

 

[JoeLT]

Games neeed to support it natively (Hurry up MS) and player pools need to be split on a game by game basis. Games like Gears of War are fine having both controller and keyboard players on the same game, but in Siege with no aim assist at all it is flat out cheating. Siege needs official support jsut so they can split the player pool, mouse users can cross play with PC, and controller users can also cross play with controller PC users. Then in terrorist hunt everyone plays together as it's Coop.

Everyone is happy, Xbox just needs official support and more games need crossplay so the pools can be split. As for no need for splitting in ranked that's jsut not fair. The top tier Diamond will be nothing but mouse, suddenly controller players who were Gold are now Silver. Not to mention mouse gives advantages in specific circumstances even if the skill level is the same.

 

[Trace]

Most fighting games are designed with stick in mind and sticks are officially supported products.

XIM users are using additional hardware to spoof the console into thinking it's receiving controller inputs.

Play on PC if you want to use a mouse. If you use hacky 3rd party devices to gain an advantage on console, you're a scumbag. It's cheating.

And your take on modded controllers, longer sticks for more precision, paddles, turbo functions, etc? Where's the line?

 

[molnizzle]

And your take on modded controllers, longer sticks for more precision, paddles, turbo functions, etc? Where's the line?

The line is using an analog stick to aim.

Obviously. Nothing else compares to the advantage you gain from using a mouse over an analog stick.

Don't act all confused about it either. You know as well as I do that mouse aim is the very reason these pieces of shit use products like the XIM4. Especially on consoles where most games have hard-coded aim assist. It's fucking cheating and that's why people use it.

 

[Trace]

The line is using an analog stick to aim.

Obviously. Nothing else compares to the advantage you gain from using a mouse instead of an analog stick.

Don't act all confused about it either. You know as well as I do that mouse aim is the very reason these pieces of shit use products like the XIM4. Especially on consoles where most games have hard-coded aim assist. It's fucking cheating and that's why people use it.

Personally I'd rather just not have third party controllers altogether for FPS games, and none of this "elite" bullshit either. You want any of that, play on PC.

 

[Jamiaro]

LoL. No mouse for me. Ever.

Edit: I hate using one.

 

[Aurongel]

Splitting player pools is a recipe for disaster:

-Inpossible to actually enforce at the hardware level.
-Further divides already disparate online communities.

 

[Ivory Samoan]

I'm that opposite guy using controller in most of my PC games, even MP ones.... my gripe here is that they (PC games) a lot of the time gimp the controller by not adding aim assist (not always, but sometimes).

Some form of gimping should go the other way IMO.

 

[Deadly Cyclone]

This is why I don't have a problem with KB&M coming to consoles.

Yeah you get some better reactions and accuracy but if your an ass player your gonna play ass no matter what your using. Yeah there will be those people who are good with KB&M but if you are good at the game you'll hold up fine imo.

No. KBM would destroy. Okay level kbm players would be beating really good controller players.

 

[molnizzle]

Keep in mind there are many "pad warriors" in the FGC who can hang with stick users. Like NuckleDu, who won the 2016 Capcom Cup for SFV. Dude plays with a fucking stock DS4.

Lemme know when there's a major tournament for Overwatch or CS:GO that has even one competitive pad player.

 

[FyreWulff]

No. KBM would destroy. Okay level kbm players would be beating really good controller players.

One area I've always felt KBAM definitely falls short in is any mechanic that requires CQB. It always feels wrong and I can always do close/melee stuff better on pad than mouse.

ex For Halo 2 PC I'd do the sniping sections on mouse but close up stuff or even tricking I could only do on pad well. Driving was also janky as fuck on mouse vs pad.

 

[OdysseusVA]

Scumbag XIM users in this thread are making my blood boil.

Shit should be bannable. Worthless fucks.

Where on the doll did the bad XIM man touch you?

 

[Renekton]

Keep in mind there are many "pad warriors" in the FGC who can hang with stick users. Like NuckleDu, who won the 2016 Capcom Cup for SFV. Dude plays with a fucking stock DS4.

Actually if we tally up the list of Street Fighter top 16 in all EVO history and group by stick and pad, how would it statistically look?

 

[I Stalk Alone]

Have separate lobbies for keyboard + mouse. Let auto aimer casuals have their lobbies. Not everyone is playing seriously. I would want both so I can play with both types of players and game styles. Those that want serious competition but still want to use gamepad, let them use assisted aim against keyboard + mouse to make it fairer.

Make it part of the game so it can be detected easier